Yeah, you're right. I didn't even think about the fact that the giant's knife could be consider as a intermediate version and should be gotten in 100% if we go with the idea of getting every weaker upgrades.
lol, but I also feel there's no point in collecting intermediate upgrades as long as you collect the final. just pointing out the other way to do it. i actually forget the specifics, or if it'd be possible for that way to be faster in a run.
EEssentia wrote:
They are collectibles and they are finite in number. What else do you require?
Hey, I said I had no logical explanation. But it has to do with them being specific to their dungeons, and no longer mattering in the overworld, as well as no indications in the overworld that you've collected them. I know that this is not a reason in and of itself for something to be part of or not part of 100%.
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Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
I don't consider any definition of 100% to be what you collect, I consider it to be what you keep. There's no reason to go out of your way to collect items that you won't be keeping until the end of the game.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
I don't consider any definition of 100% to be what you collect, I consider it to be what you keep. There's no reason to go out of your way to collect items that you won't be keeping until the end of the game.
Very well said. I completely agree with you. This is why we should only collect the highest upgrade. I cannot stress enough how the TAS should just use the same rules as RTA. There would be no debate on what the TAS should or shouldn't do because we would already have an established and widely accepted set of rules to go by.
The following seems reasonable to me as a definition of 100%:
- Anything that can be collected indefinitely from the same location or in the same manner when playing the game in the intended way, is not included.
- Anything that can not be collected when playing the game in the intended way is not included.
- Anything that you already possess when starting the game is not included.
- Anything that can be spent, sold, lost or replaced by another item is not included.
- Anything that does not have a clearly defined maximum is not included.
- If collecting something precludes the collection of something else, such that both would otherwise be considered part of 100%, then neither is included.
- Otherwise, anything that enables the player to do something, or shows up on a status screen, or would otherwise be regarded as one of the player's belongings, is included.
About the cow, I think it should be regarded as a collectible. Same with compasses, maps and big keys, of course.
Also, one may of course collect an item repeatedly that can normally only be collected once, or collect a normally unobtainable item if doing so saves time, but this does not count towards 100%.
- If collecting something precludes the collection of something else, such that both would otherwise be considered part of 100%, then neither is included.
I'm not exactly clear on what you mean by that. Can you explain a little further?
HHS wrote:
About the cow, I think it should be regarded as a collectible. Same with compasses, maps and big keys, of course.
I never understood the point of the cow. What do you have to do to get it, anyway? I could understand the Maps/Compasses but i'm not sure about the cow.
I could see the argument for the Maps/Compasses to go either way. If they are collected, it would show more of the dungeon and make the TAS a little more interesting or entertaining to watch. On the other hand, one could argue that getting the boss keys are a waste of time since most (or possibly all?) of the boss keys can be skipped. It doesn't really matter to me either way, but i would prefer not to collect maps, compasses, keys, or the cow.
As a total outsider who has nothing to do with zelda speedruns or OoT, I don't understand why there is a debate as to what definition of 100% to use. The ZSR definition is already laid out and used by runners for RTA attempts.
This is going to potentially sound silly, but if the definition included things like boss keys, maps, compasses etc., then how could you (after completing the game) "check" that you got 100%? In most games where 100% is a competitive category, there's a percentage counter that can be easily seen after completing the game. Under the current definition, afaik all you would have to do is open your inventory and maybe talk to an NPC about the gold skulltulas (I don't remember how those work, it's been a while =P). If you include boss keys, maps, compasses, dungeon keys, bomb-chus, etc. you would have to spend an immense amount of time wandering about the overworld to double check.
I guess for an example, if you watch a metroid prime 100% run, it literally says after the run "100%" on the timing screen, so anyone who doesn't know the ins and outs of the game can see its a 100% completion. For a definition of OoT that includes all the "side-items" from all the dungeons, you would have to just tell viewers "trust me, I got it all'.
The skultulla count is on the pause menu. The items, songs, medallions, etc. are all there. The Maps, compasses, and boss keys are only on the map screen while you are in that dungeon. That's where the debate comes from. I think we should use the ZSR definition.
I don't consider any definition of 100% to be what you collect, I consider it to be what you keep. There's no reason to go out of your way to collect items that you won't be keeping until the end of the game.
But then again, this is the point of 100%. It's to collect everything in the game, regardless of whether you're going to use it or not and regardless of whether or not you're going to keep it at the end of the game.
But that definition, we wouldn't collect any beam in super metroid because we lose them all at the end, yet we collect them anyway.
Stevmay09 wrote:
Samsara wrote:
I don't consider any definition of 100% to be what you collect, I consider it to be what you keep. There's no reason to go out of your way to collect items that you won't be keeping until the end of the game.
Very well said. I completely agree with you. This is why we should only collect the highest upgrade. I cannot stress enough how the TAS should just use the same rules as RTA. There would be no debate on what the TAS should or shouldn't do because we would already have an established and widely accepted set of rules to go by.
Or we could see it as a way for the TAS get the definition right, as opposed to just following someone else's ideals ;) Besides, TASes aren't real-time runs.
Stevmay09 wrote:
HHS wrote:
- If collecting something precludes the collection of something else, such that both would otherwise be considered part of 100%, then neither is included.
I'm not exactly clear on what you mean by that. Can you explain a little further?
My guess:
If getting item A prevents from getting item B and 100% means getting both item A and B, you should get neither.
Or getting either A or B prevents you from getting the other. This seems like a silly definition, though.
If you had the chance of upgrading your sword in two different ways, but getting an upgrade prevents you from getting the other upgrade, then it seems silly to say that we shouldn't get either upgrades. I'd say that it would simply be up to the runner to choose which upgrade to get.
Stevmay09 wrote:
HHS wrote:
About the cow, I think it should be regarded as a collectible. Same with compasses, maps and big keys, of course.
I never understood the point of the cow. What do you have to do to get it, anyway? I could understand the Maps/Compasses but i'm not sure about the cow.
Why is the cow different from keys? It's an item that you can collect in the game and it can only be acquired once. That goes along very well with the definition of 100%: to get all collectibles in the game.
Stevmay09 wrote:
That's where the debate comes from. I think we should use the ZSR definition.
The RTA definition never made sense to me. Why purposely skip getting collectibles? I'd like if TASVideos goes with the (in my opinion) "right" definition (i.e. get "everything" definition, not have "everything" at end definition).
I *think* the only reason NES Zelda 1 has all maps and compasses collected is that there's no text associated with the items. Can you imagine doing all the everything in Link's Awakening, with its text boxes for every last anything?
While there are at leastacouplemovies where the run goes for something completely arbitrary and it can be considered a form of 100%, for the most part anything labeled 100% is going to use an already established definition, which in this case is the Zelda speedrun community's definition of 100%. I think they've already been posted but I'll post them again for good measure.
Obtain 20 Hearts*
Learn all songs
Collect all 100 Golden Skulltulas**
Obtain Double Defense and Double Magic
Obtain the Gerudo Card and Stone of Agony
Obtain the Giant's Wallet
Obtain all items on the Item Select subscreen (Eg. Din's Fire, Boomerang)***.
Obtain all equipment on the Equipment subscreen (Eg. Goron Tunic, Hover Boots, Golden Scale)***
Obtain all Spiritual Stones and Medallions (Eg. Zora's Sapphire, Shadow Medallion)
Complete the game (reach the credits)
Other notes:
RBA/BA is banned
Timing ends on last hit on Ganon
Maps, Compasses, and Boss Keys are not required
Ganon's Castle trials are not required
Obtaining the cow in Link's house is not required
Buying or planting all Magic Beans is not required
Duping a bottle over an item is allowed, but your final inventory must be complete
*: You may not collect any heart piece more than once. You may not obtain the extra heart piece in Gerudo Fortress as child or the extra heart piece in Kakariko Graveyard.
**: You may not collect any Golden Skulltula token more than once.
*** Only highest upgrades are required for the following items. (Eg. Golden Scale, Golden Gauntlets, Longshot)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
EEssentia wrote:
But that definition, we wouldn't collect any beam in super metroid because we lose them all at the end, yet we collect them anyway.
That would be a decent point if it wasn't so blatantly faulty and based off of comparing two different games. OoT doesn't have a 100% counter. Super Metroid does. Collecting beams counts towards Super Metroid's 100% counter. Therefore, they must be collected. With OoT, we have some freedom in limiting the amount of arbitrary stuff we need to collect because it doesn't count toward the non-existent 100% counter.
The definition is defined by the community who actually speedruns the game, not by a bunch of unrelated jackasses on an only slightly related forum who think they know better than people who have studied the game inside and out. If the eventual TAS doesn't follow ZSR's definition of 100%, there better be a good reason for it.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
I'm just offering opinions, not stating what's right or wrong. It's up to community to decide on something and I have no qualms with that.
I just picked super metroid because I couldn't figure out a better example. It's not perfect, but I'm just stating the whole "go about it" mindset. It's not perfect. But it's blatantly wrong either. You can pick over 100% items in super metroid, so you could just get some other items for offsetting the beams, if we temporarily disregard the whole "don't collect items that aren't supposed to be part of the game" rule.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
EEssentia wrote:
I'm just offering opinions, not stating what's right or wrong. It's up to community to decide on something and I have no qualms with that.
EEssentia wrote:
Or we could see it as a way for the TAS get the definition right, as opposed to just following someone else's ideals ;) Besides, TASes aren't real-time runs.
...
The RTA definition never made sense to me. Why purposely skip getting collectibles? I'd like if TASVideos goes with the (in my opinion) "right" definition (i.e. get "everything" definition, not have "everything" at end definition).
*drops mic, leaves thread*
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Well, good riddance. Apparently someone missed "my opinion."
I do not speak for the community.
Also, people reach consensus without necessarily always agreeing fully with one another.
Eessentia, your request for the 100% definition seems both onerous and ill-defined.
As far as I can tell, your criteria is "collecting everything that the game keeps track of somehow." But unfortunately what's kept track of isn't really clear.
Your largest fish score is saved in the fishing pond. Along with whether or not you used the sinking lure. Do you need a 21 pound fish (is 22 possible? I know 21 is)? Do you need to have used the sinking lure? (To prove that you've gotten it at least once.)
Whether or not you snagged a Hylian Loach may not be saved, I am not sure, is this part of a 100% run? Do you need max size on the Loach? What even is max size on the Loach?
Your best score for some of the minigames, like the horseback archery minigame, is saved in your house, do you need to max the score to 2000? What about the running man minigame? Do you need to lose to him at least once? If so, what time would you need to hit in order to count as 100%? Are you allowed to trigger it and eventually get there while you do other things? Or do you need to TAS it all of the way back to Kokiri Forest?
Which rooms you've entered in dungeons is saved. Do you need to enter every room in addition to collecting every chest? (I'm unsure if this is actually a problem, because I don't remember if there are any "pointless rooms").
The status of certain destructible terrain features are saved. Do you need to dispose of all 3 of the Golden Gauntlets pillars, or is it OK to not throw one if it's skippable? Do you need to bomb the rocks in front of the fairy's fountains or can you get away with just clipping through them?
Do you need to plant all of the magic beans, even though we don't need them all?
You need to pick up all 4 bottles, is there a preferred content of the bottles for 100% completion? The content of the bottles is saved, which is considered the best? Blue potion (most effective medicine), fairy (most useful in a pinch because of auto-revive), or blue fire (most expensive)?
Do you need to activate every super fairy in the game (the ones without wings who also fill magic?)
Do you need to put every mask from the Happy Mask Shop into your inventory at least once? Do you need to talk to every gossip stone? What about activating every gossip stone item reaction? If every key must be collected, should every key be used? Do you need to end with 500 rupees?
At what point does this category stop being a speedrun and turns into a extremely well played longplay?
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Eessentia, your request for the 100% definition seems both onerous and ill-defined.
As far as I can tell, your criteria is "collecting everything that the game keeps track of somehow." But unfortunately what's kept track of isn't really clear.
I will admit that there are cracks in every defintion, so I'm not saying there isn't in mine, but I have clear answers to all of your questions. It's not about what the game keeps track of. It's what you can collect in the game (regardless of whether the keep track record of it or not and where it tracks it or not).
Records? Not collectibles.
Completing minigames? Not collectibles.
Visiting rooms? Not collectibles.
Opening chests? Not collectibles (though the contents may matter, e.g. heart pieces).
Status of rooms and terrain? Not collectibles.
Talking to gossip stones? Not collectibles.
Using keys are not required because using stuff is not collectibles.
Number of rupees doesn't matter because rupees, while collectible, are infinite in number. The number of rupees is not a collectible, so should not be required.
The bottles question is a good one. It would seem to me like a bottle is a collectible, but filling a bottle is not. Therefore, it is up to the runner what to fill the bottles with.
As for fairies, activing them should not be necessary, but getting the upgrades that they give should be necessary as they're collectibles. So you would need to activate them all as a side effect of properly "collecting" the "collectibles" they're "guarding" (if you could get these upgrades without visiting them in a legal way in the game, they wouldn't need to be visited; otherwise it seems like it would just be "cheating" like RBA to get items).
Getting all masks seems like it would be necessary as they're collectibles and necessary to get the final mask anyway (again, assuming we're not allowed to RBA it).
That said, I love discussion. I may be completely and utterly wrong and completely insane, but the discussion is what's fun. So thank you for providing something to discuss about.
On the subject of masks, the mask quest involves four masks that you have to drop off in a certain order with the right people somewhere in the world, and after you've done that you unlock the "final mask" but you also unlock three other masks which serve no in-game purpose except to change the dialog of a few irrelevant NPCs. Since you can only have one item in your mask slot at a time, what's to say the Mask of Truth is any more final than the Gerudo Mask? And couldn't a hypercompletionist insistence require that every one of those "endgame masks" be in your inventory for some time, even though it just means stting through the salesman's spiel a few more times since they're free to swap out at that point?
As long as you collect all masks, you're fine. If, after you've acquired them all, you can change masks to any masks, then you should be free to do so and it shouldn't matter.
It obviously makes no sense to stop part-way through because you don't get all masks.
If something is not a collectible, it probably does not belong in the requirements for 100%. So, no such things as high scores, chests opened, doors unlocked, visited rooms. Runs that aim for 100% map completion are usually marked as such. The content of bottles is inconsequential since there is an endless supply of these items.
EEssentia wrote:
If you had the chance of upgrading your sword in two different ways, but getting an upgrade prevents you from getting the other upgrade, then it seems silly to say that we shouldn't get either upgrades. I'd say that it would simply be up to the runner to choose which upgrade to get.
Well, my logic is as follows. If there is a 100% run that would not have been considered 100% had it failed to obtain item A, it seems the most consistent to me that no other run that does not obtain A would be considered 100% either. However, if items A and B are actually the same thing, but obtained in different places, then I agree that either is acceptable. Otherwise, the "either" requirement would only make sense if picking A and picking B were different speedrunning categories.
I personally see no value in a TAS that follows a category definition different to that of the RTA runners. To me, a TAS is what's theoretically possible by a perfect human in a given category. If the TAS is made for a 100% definition other than the one already and currently in use, then what's the point? It's a perfect run of a category nobody has/will run?
If you don't like a 100% definition of a run, redo it with your own definition... That's all. If not, let the runners decide. :o)
Why does the 100% is discussed again?
I'm sorry that's my fault. I didn't expect to break the thread. Although, now I get why there's so many pages.
Well, don't worry about it, I didn't say this to make you feel bad.
I just wanted to point out that it's completely useless to discuss about the 100% of a future TAS. It's up to the runner to do it in their own definition and hope that the judges will adhere to their definition and accept the run. nothing more complicated than that.
The community of OOT adhere to the 100% presented by you if I remember correctly, well this is 100% to them. If a TASer do it with an another 100% definition(Let,s say the one of Essentia), well good. The judges are there to determine if it's okay to accept.
If 2 runs with two 100% is done, the judge can decide which one is going to be kept. That's all. If the judge decide to keep the RTA accepted definition, well too bad for the other run.
