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I am noticing this tag get misused.
The big ones I"m seeing are:
1) Confusing hard to achieve ACE circumstances with manipulating randomness. [2601] NES Mega Man "game end glitch" by pirohiko & finalfighter in 00:32.11 is not luck manipulation, nor [2513] SNES Super Mario World "arbitrary code execution" by Masterjun in 02:25.19. These movies create events very unlikely to be encountered in normal play. But they do this with precise exploitation of overflowing memory values and causing ram (that was precisely manipulated to specific values) to be run as code. No RNG is involved in this.
2) Deciding that any manipulation of luck means to tag it with "Heavy Luck Manipulation". Just because they get 1 favorable drop from an enemy, this is not heavy luck manipulation
3) Worse yet, if the submission simply says "Manipulates Luck", I'm seeing the judge/publisher blindly apply this tag. What was manipulated? Where? How is it a big aspect to the movie?
How to use this Tag correctly:
1) The intent of this tag is firstly to identify runs that manipulate random events. Pretty much, there must be an RNG involved. If you don't manipulate an RNG, this tag doesn't not apply
2) The events must be UNLIKELY, very unlikely, beyond anything a human could hope and plan for, in a speedrun. Good examples are unlikely drops by enemies, critical hits, and unlikely RPG events (again critical hits, or enemies missing, or running away).
3) Luck manipulation must be a significant aspect to the TAS, throughout. A good example is movie [2455] GBA Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance "Simon, Boss Rush, Hard" by Robert_Ordis in 07:51.27, a TAS that makes use of critical hits on all major enemies. Or [951] NES Darkwing Duck by AnS & Randil in 10:59.50 that constantly depends on unlikely enemy drops throughout
4) The "lucky" moments must be apparent to the user. Again, critical hits are easy to see, constant enemy drops. Or just obviously getting really lucky ([2425] SNES Vegas Stakes by hero_of_the_day in 02:43.20) in a game of chance
Obviously the most common types of TAS that qualify well with this tag are RPG's (think Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Pokemon). But not always. As already linked, games like Darkwing Duck and Castlevania II (drops), Symphony of the Night and Harmony of Dissonance (critical hits) are great examples as well.
In summary, publishers, and judges need to be more careful about applying this tag, and think through the situation more. Don't be afraid to get clarification from an author if they suggest this tag without elaborating why (and it isn't obvious from the movie).
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Does that mass removal mean we'll need to explicitly explain why manipulation of some removed run was heavy to get it back into the list? Because I'm seeing several false removals at the first glance.
About Megaman glitched, it's not an average ACE, it's (like SMB3) the one that only is able to do ACE if a bunch of objects has certain attributes, and their attributes are then executed as code. Not RNG related, but creates an unlikely event and it's the whole point of that run (same as SMB3 glitched).
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Ok, so did I get this right?
The new Paper Mario 2 TAS does use heavy luck manipulation, because the route depends on a number of incredibly rare drops.
My TAS of Gex 64 will not get the tag, because the only time RNG is relevant is at the final boss.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
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feos wrote:
About Megaman glitched, it's not an average ACE, it's (like SMB3) the one that only is able to do ACE if a bunch of objects has certain attributes, and their attributes are then executed as code. Not RNG related, but creates an unlikely event and it's the whole point of that run (same as SMB3 glitched).
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andypanther wrote:
Ok, so did I get this right?
The new Paper Mario 2 TAS does use heavy luck manipulation, because the route depends on a number of incredibly rare drops.
My TAS of Gex 64 will not get the tag, because the only time RNG is relevant is at the final boss.
I don't know the games terribly well, but what you described sounds exactly correct.
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So what about my first question?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
One point about this game is that it makes extensive use of RNG. Usually changing something in the run will slightly alter most of the rest of the run, requiring you to go over it all again. The biggest point of RNG is the location of the key cards, usually effected by actions you take in the previous level.
The Ninja Boss is totally RNG dependent. In the end I just guessed enough times to get him in a good spot. If anything in this run separates it from a real time run it would be this fight.
Unique to this game is being able to use every button for RNG manipulation. This is combined with frame manipulation, so one can just hold a button that will do nothing to change the RNG really easily. It's used for everything.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
As far as I can see, there are two types of Luck Manipulation, both of which should be noted in some way.
I'm going to use movies that I worked on for the sake of examples, since I know how luck manipulation factored into their making.
1.Luck manipulation that affects the moment-to-moment gameplay
This is doing things like manipulating enemies using the RNG to do favorable actions for the runner (e.g. move out of the way or not spawn at all). Another example is manipulating bosses to do quick patterns.
It can also be purely superficial, like making several enemies drop One-Ups in a Mega Man run.
[1756] MSX Contra by scrimpeh in 10:21.37 is an example of this, as enemy spawn timers and turret spawn positions are manipulated between screen transitions to reduce lag. Here, luck manipulation factors inside nearly the entire run, as most screens contain enemies that need to be manipulated. However, it is hardly visible to the player, as most luck manipulation happens as idle input during screen transitions.
2.Luck manipulation that affects the game's route
This naturally goes hand in hand with route planning and tends to be of the "manipulating drops" variety more often. While this type of luck manipulation is more common in nonlinear games, even very linear games can exhibit this type of luck manipulation (e.g. manipulate a health drop from an enemy so you don't have to go out of your way to get health later).
Generally, this type of luck manipulation allows the runner to take a route through the game they otherwise wouldn't be able to. Sometimes, that is the only part of the game that actually uses luck manipulation in a significant way.
Also, any movie that involves grinding in a way uses this type of luck manipulation.
[2158] MSX Lupin III: The Castle of Cagliostro by scrimpeh in 07:15.86 is a good example of a movie that uses luck manipulation in its route. Several detours are avoided by getting items needed to complete the levels from random enemy drops.
Movies can contain a healthy share of both types of luck manipulation, too. The Arsene Lupin run linked above, for example, not only uses luck manipulation to influence the route, but manipulates several enemy spawns and item drops to go through the screens quicker.
The question becomes where to draw the line between "heavy" luck manipulation and "regular" Luck Manipulation, which will probably have to be done on a case-by-case basis. With the first type, I believe movies should be tagged in which a significant portion of the run involes luck manipulation. In the case of luck-based routes, movies should be tagged in which there is a significant and visible route difference compared to a non-luck based route. My 2 cents, I guess.
Lastly, while they may often look alike, Luck Manipulation is not to be confused with Enemy/AI Manipulation. To the uninitiated, this damage boost in Castlevania (.gif taken from Grincevent) may look like luck manipulation, but the Medusa Head's spawn is in fact entirely fixed and dependent on your y position, which is not RNG-based.
P.S: While this is unrelated, this movie is the one movie I did which got tagged with Heavy Luck Manipulation that literally did not involve an ounce of luck manipulation. If the tag could be removed, that'd be grand.
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scrimpeh wrote:
Lastly, while they may often look alike, Luck Manipulation is not to be confused with Enemy/AI Manipulation. To the uninitiated, this damage boost in Castlevania (.gif taken from Grincevent) may look like luck manipulation, but the Medusa Head's spawn is in fact entirely fixed and dependent on your y position, which is not RNG-based.
I disagree. Enemy/AI relies on something that determines its actions, and player position can be a source of entropy. Also, I fail to see how RNG is luck, but manipulatable actions of NPCs are not luck. It's just we have "complex" RNGs in some games, where a bunch of addresses gets mixed in and then determines random actions, and there are also "simple" RNGs, where actions depend on addresses directly.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Lastly, while they may often look alike, Luck Manipulation is not to be confused with Enemy/AI Manipulation. To the uninitiated, this damage boost in Castlevania (.gif taken from Grincevent) may look like luck manipulation, but the Medusa Head's spawn is in fact entirely fixed and dependent on your y position, which is not RNG-based.
I disagree. Enemy/AI relies on something that determines its actions, and player position can be a source of entropy. Also, I fail to see how RNG is luck, but manipulatable actions of NPCs are not luck. It's just we have "complex" RNGs in some games, where a bunch of addresses gets mixed in and then determines random actions, and there are also "simple" RNGs, where actions depend on addresses directly.
In my opinion, Enemy/AI manipulation becomes luck manipulation when entropy gets involved, i.e. there is no visible correlation between what the player does and how the enemy reacts. Especially, without TAS tools, an unassisted runner should not be able to reliably get a desired outcome in those cases.
However, games in which you can easily predict an AI's behaviour should not be considered luck manipulation. In the example I used, the enemy's spawning Y position is directly tied to the player's Y position. No entropy involved at all.
There are some edge cases to this, of course. For example, what if an enemy's action depends on if the player's X position is odd or even?
This is easy for a TASer to figure out, so easy that I wouldn't call it luck manipulation. Yet it can still technically be considered randomness, since it's not predictable by a normal player.
There's other interesting cases regarding sources of entropy too. Some games like Super Mario Bros. and Gimmick! make "random" events dependent on certain digits in the player's score. If the conditions to trigger these events are known, there is nothing random (and therefore nothing lucky) about them at all.
tl;dr: If an enemy's actions are unpredictable to a human, enemy manipulation is luck manipulation as well. If they are predictable, I don't think they can be considered that.
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Nice idea btw. Something truly random can not be predicted/manipulated in real time at all. Examples: Darkwing Duck/Megaman drops, Battlotoads attack types, Battle City item spawns, TMNT 3 enemy spawns. But even if one thing hard-tied to other thing can be replicated in real time, even by pixel-perfect actions, it must be "not heavy" manipulation. Probably that way we could define the tag finally.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
In my opinion, Enemy/AI manipulation becomes luck manipulation when entropy gets involved, i.e. there is no visible correlation between what the player does and how the enemy reacts. Especially, without TAS tools, an unassisted runner should not be able to reliably get a desired outcome in those cases.
However, games in which you can easily predict an AI's behaviour should not be considered luck manipulation. In the example I used, the enemy's spawning Y position is directly tied to the player's Y position. No entropy involved at all.
I clearly remember I saw the Medusa trick shown in the GIF in a CV1 hardmode RTA; this case is an good example that the AI's behavior is so predictable that the manipulation can even be done in a RTA.
4) The "lucky" moments must be apparent to the user. Again, critical hits are easy to see, constant enemy drops. Or just obviously getting really lucky ([2425] SNES Vegas Stakes by hero_of_the_day in 02:43.20) in a game of chance
I'd like to add (although it might be self-evident) that it doesn't necessarily have to be obvious to someone who has never seen the game nor knows anything about it, but ought to be obvious to someone who knows at least a bit about the game.
For example for someone who has never seen nor knows anything about Castlevania II, it may not be apparent that enemies are not supposed to always drop hearts, and thus the luck manipulation may not be obvious to such a person. However, the luck manipulation is pretty obvious to anybody who knows that enemies drop hearts only occasionally.
In my opinion, Enemy/AI manipulation becomes luck manipulation when entropy gets involved, i.e. there is no visible correlation between what the player does and how the enemy reacts. Especially, without TAS tools, an unassisted runner should not be able to reliably get a desired outcome in those cases.
However, games in which you can easily predict an AI's behaviour should not be considered luck manipulation. In the example I used, the enemy's spawning Y position is directly tied to the player's Y position. No entropy involved at all.
I clearly remember I saw the Medusa trick shown in the GIF in a CV1 hardmode RTA; this case is an good example that the AI's behavior is so predictable that the manipulation can even be done in a RTA.
In fact, for that specific medusa head, if you want to save time, it's more important to manipulate its x spawning position compared to its y position. In other words, you want to make it appear while keeping the screen (camera) as far to the left as possible, so that it spawns closer to where you'll want to jump on it; that's because that enemy appears at the edge of the screen, and it's only time-based.
I think the best example from Castlevania is the hunchbacks. They are extremely easy to manipulate even in real time: if you look at them and they aren't too far away, they do a high jump, otherwise they jump lower and faster.
Other enemies are more tricky, like the skeletons, the bone dragons and the bosses. Their behavior can't completely be predicted in real time, if at all, sometimes. Hard to tell how many bones a skeleton will throw (it can be 0), for example, but any good player knows at least that they tend to step back when you approach.
So, to get back on topic with this, my opinion is that we can talk about luck manipulation if it's something that is truly random; and when I say random, my definition is "something that can't be predicted or manipulated by the player in real time".
Ah, now that I've said that, I realize that there are still blurry lines with that notion.
I'll take The Tower of Druaga on NES as an example and hope my memory doesn't fail me...
We don't have a TAS of this game on the site right now, don't bother searching for it ^^.
When you launch the game then press start at the title screen, you're set on the first floor where most of the things are randomly placed (enemies, key, door), but you'll always have the same starting position.
Now if you launch the game, then reset at the title screen, then press start, you'll start somewhere else on the floor, but this "somewhere else" is always the same if you hit reset only once after booting the game for the first time.
For me, it's a case of luck manipulation that can be done in real time, but it really looks like RNG manipulation (the "impossible to predict" kind), even if it isn't.
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Whatever is decided in the end, staff members, please ensure the correct movies are tagged, meaning removed where it doesn't belong, or restored as needed, as awards eligibility depend upon it. This is time sensitive as we should be going into award voting at the end of the week.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
One point about this game is that it makes extensive use of RNG. Usually changing something in the run will slightly alter most of the rest of the run, requiring you to go over it all again. The biggest point of RNG is the location of the key cards, usually effected by actions you take in the previous level.
The Ninja Boss is totally RNG dependent. In the end I just guessed enough times to get him in a good spot. If anything in this run separates it from a real time run it would be this fight.
Unique to this game is being able to use every button for RNG manipulation. This is combined with frame manipulation, so one can just hold a button that will do nothing to change the RNG really easily. It's used for everything.
I don't think any of these are deserving of the tag, do we need to discuss all of them one by one in this thread? I'd rather not. But in general, I think the manipulation in all these movies is pretty typical. ALL TASes manipulate luck, a tag that defines typical behavior like this has no value. Movies that stand out because of their luck manipulation, that's what we are striving for. I think all the movies in my original post stand out.
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So what about minus infinity? It was not removed because was never added, but it abuses all kinds of weapons which needs heavy item drop manipulation, similar to Darkwing Duck, but harder, since the movie is so much longer.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Regarding whether or not it can be done in real time as a criteria, there's things like Pokemon RNG abuse. It's used often to get perfect stats and/or shinies a lot faster than soft reset over and over. I think that situation still makes Pokemon Emerald "heavy luck manip", since the frame precision to get everything perfect is unfeasible.
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feos wrote:
So what about minus infinity? It was not removed because was never added, but it abuses all kinds of weapons which needs heavy item drop manipulation, similar to Darkwing Duck, but harder, since the movie is so much longer.
Regarding whether or not it can be done in real time as a criteria, there's things like Pokemon RNG abuse. It's used often to get perfect stats and/or shinies a lot faster than soft reset over and over. I think that situation still makes Pokemon Emerald "heavy luck manip", since the frame precision to get everything perfect is unfeasible.
As someone who does realtime manipulation of Pokémon games a lot (for fun, even), I'd say the point at which it crosses into heavy luck manipulation is the point at which you need a separate calculator program to work out precisely what sequence of apparently arbitrary actions will give you the result you're looking for. (The fact that it then takes me 2 to 3 hours trying to enter that sequence frame-perfectly simply by pressing buttons by hand is of course irrelevant when TASing.)
P.S: While this is unrelated, this movie is the one movie I did which got tagged with Heavy Luck Manipulation that literally did not involve an ounce of luck manipulation. If the tag could be removed, that'd be grand.
