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Posted: 4/23/2014 3:50 PM
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WST
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glitchfest Link to video
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Posted: 5/8/2014 10:02 PM
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WST
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So as TheYogWog’s run is now accepted, I am showing the result of my own attempt at optimizing Angel Island 1. Almost nothing is changed. Link to video It is still improveable, but I doubt I’ll be improving it anymore. So I am just leaving it as is to show you that any of you (including TheYogWog himself, of course), who is good at Sonic and can put his efforts into optimizing, has a good chance to get his own star.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Posted: 5/13/2014 10:30 PM
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TheYogWog
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I did a bit of experimenting and testing as S/ST just for kicks, and in an older post I said I might mention my thoughts about ring attacks as other characters. So, in case anyone's interested or wants to discuss what possible future RA's should be like, here are some of my thoughts and findings: It seems S/T/ST can't 100% AIZ. While the boundary can still be reset in AIZ2, they can't get past the rock to get into KTE's starting area and may not even be able to get back up the tunnel they come out of in the start of Act 2. The only way they could get in is by glitching through the floor. However, the main problem is much of KTE's path doesn't load for them even if you do reset the boundary. Small sections of it do, but they're basically worthless because once you get in you can't get out without dying. Hence most (especially for S/T, since they could only possibly get in via the camera/sprite glitch and there's less spots where that would work compared to using the carry glitch with ST) if not all (but probably all, since they can't get out anyway) of KTE's 97 rings would be unobtainable in a S/T/ST run. ST should be able to 100% HCZ; but not S, and maybe not T. They have to fight their own boss in HCZ2 because I don't think KTE's boss loads for them, for one thing, and more importantly there's no way for them to get back out of their boss area after getting the 3 rings there. It's possible for ST/S (not sure about T, he might not be able to get on top of the screen) to get KTE's 3 boss rings by getting on top of the screen at one point, either by bubble bouncing off a flying shark or getting carried and then jumping. After dropping down into the boss area, the doors leading back into the level can be destroyed by spindashing and the long set of spikes can be crossed either by getting carried or bubble bouncing (there's certain spots where it doesn't hurt to bounce on). It might be possible to get there using other shields, but doing so would be pointless since they would be canceled by the water in the boss room if it loads (I don't remember), and even if it doesn't, S is still unable to cross the spikes and get all the rings without taking damage. But here's where things get interesting/confusing: the only way out of KTE's route is a camera glitch through the door he hides behind during the cutscene. Shortly after doing this, he will load and break the bridge as normal, which is good because that's the only way out but it creates a dilemma for S. It means he has to choose between going into KTE's area or going down the big slide into the S/T/ST area; the only possible way he could get back to the place where he can go into KTE's area after going down the slide, is to go back up the slide, which he can't. For ST it doesn't matter since S can just be carried back out. S/T/ST apparently can't 100% MGZ. Resetting the boundary by entering the bonus stage before KTE's boss in Act 2 doesn't work for some reason (S may not even be able to get out of the room where the cutscene takes place), and there's a point of no return along their own boss path as well. It would be necessary to pick between KTE's path or theirs, whichever has more rings. ST could 100% ICZ easily by resetting the boundary and either carrying or using the slope glitch to get KTE's 3 boss rings. I'm pretty sure the best thing for S would be to take KTE's path to the end of Act 1, since when the boundary is reset in Act 2 he can still get back into his own area to get the ring before his usual boss but he won't be able to get all the way back to KTE's starting area in Act 2, and the rings there outnumber the 10 given by S's boss's additional signpost monitor. That's all of my findings for now, I haven't looked into other levels yet. Now, for character choices, consider S. As I explained above, there are times when S has to choose one route or another but what I didn't mention is on top of that there's also times when he simply can't get certain rings due to his abilities. He would miss probably more rings than any other character selection. He would have to switch to specific shields at various points throughout each act, I think that would be fun to watch and lead to some interesting routes. But I know of at least one case where it would also force him to go pretty far out of his way and cause a considerable amount of backtracking. These aren't necessarily bad things, and are generally true for all characters, but any time a level can't be 100%'d or has a lot of backtracking viewers might find it offputting, and that happens much moreso for S than anyone else. The really good thing about S though is he can double jump without transforming if he has a shield. It's also highly unlikely his unshielded double jump would ever be mandatory in most situations. I think that makes collecting the giant rings for him actually viable since he doesn't have to transform, which in my opinion should be avoided in a RA due to the ring loss over time. In terms of entertainment getting the giant rings would definitely make up for all the normal/monitor rings he can't get. And if you played as ST, he could probably get all of the ones he can't get by himself, in addition to (probably) even more giant rings too, and in less time. That's why I think ST would be the ultimate RA character selection. There's a couple ways to go about it, too. They could start from reset and do a "true 100%" run, collecting max rings from normal/monitor while gathering the emeralds (it only takes 1 or 2 stages in each half of the game, IIRC), then collecting max rings from normal/monitor and giant rings once all emeralds had been obtained. Alternatively, and what I personally might like to see a little more, they could start from a save state from a comparison video and do a new game+ run for "true max rings." Such runs would also be possible as the other characters, but they would have to transform. I'm sure seeing super/hyper ring runs as anyone would be entertaining, but how publishable would it be if publication was intended? What do you guys think about the ring loss over time aspect? I think it does make the ring maxes less objective which affects chances of being published, but how much does that really matter as long as the run is highly optimal and entertaining? I mean, there's no objective best time for speedruns, initially they were accepted because they got a fast time and did a good job. It could be the same thing here, there's no objective max rings in a transformation run but they could be accepted if well done. Then, as time goes on it's possible they could be refined just like speedruns until it reaches the point they're at today, where significant further improvement is unlikely to be found, and at that point the ring maxes would be pretty much objective. Sorry about my silly single letter name abbreviations. Hope it's not too confusing.
Knuckles does, what Sonican't.
Posted: 8/21/2014 11:24 PM
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WST
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Hmm, ghost moving pattern can be manipulated by pressing pause at the checkpost falling scene of the previous act, right? Damn, I miss an input editor within Gens...
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Posted: 8/22/2014 9:29 PM
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marzojr
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@WST: You have to delete the signpost sparkles or force the creation of new ones. To delete sparkles, you want the game to be paused whenever the byte at $FFFFFE0F ends in a 0, 4, 8 or C (hexadecimal); to create new ones, you want the game to be unpaused in those frames. @TheYogWog: I think the newgame+ RA with S+T (without hyper) would be most interesting as it would be most different from the K RA. But even better is that you can use the savestate used in the published newgame+ run: this saves you the trouble of making the verification movie and generating the savestate in a consistent way.
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Posted: 8/25/2014 1:45 PM
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Tee-N-Tee
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I made a quick and unoptimised TAS with Tails in Flying Battery 1 in 46::58 http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/16955344100364339
Posted: 8/25/2014 3:31 PM
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marzojr
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Nice. Before I watched, I thought I knew what you were going to to, but I was wrong.
Marzo Junior
Posted: 8/26/2014 4:36 AM
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WST
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It’s very impressive. Tee-N-Tee, you certainly have a talent proving currently published runs beatable.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Posted: 9/4/2014 6:10 AM
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TheYogWog
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marzojr wrote:
@WST: You have to delete the signpost sparkles or force the creation of new ones. To delete sparkles, you want the game to be paused whenever the byte at $FFFFFE0F ends in a 0, 4, 8 or C (hexadecimal); to create new ones, you want the game to be unpaused in those frames. @TheYogWog: I think the newgame+ RA with S+T (without hyper) would be most interesting as it would be most different from the K RA. But even better is that you can use the savestate used in the published newgame+ run: this saves you the trouble of making the verification movie and generating the savestate in a consistent way.
Hey, Marzojr. Thanks for reading, I was worried I permanently killed the thread with that super massive wall of text. Tonight is one of the first times in a while I have been able to TAS, and I was thinking about doing just Sonic alone at first, but your comment convinced me to give S+T another try. I agree it would be the most interesting, but I had previously given up on them because it seemed so hard to control them both. I have been able to get the hang of it a little more tonight, however, so later I will post the results of tonights session. EDIT: Okay, here is the first half of Act 1. I only really had to control both of them in the very beginning of the level, which looks crude to me, and it is, in terms of optimization, but in general I wasn't trying to be 100% optimal with this recording, since it's just for fun/practice and I didn't spend that much time on it. At this point, I know so little about playing as Sonic and Tails, that I don't even know, what I don't know, so if you know some way to help me improve, please, let me know. Other than that, I'm happy with this, and I'm pleased I was finally able to create a halfway decent Sonic and Tails recording. Hope you guys enjoy it. Link to video
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Posted: 9/5/2014 9:37 AM
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feeuzz22
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I was waiting for a kind of that run. Ideas are not bad, even if Tails is not used that much ^^, but seeing the run, you could not use it more in that part. Better organisation between the two character may help you to keep Tails longer. Don't forget rings can be collected even before in-game timer starts, you can also inspire you with that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYeKQieR9SQ This is not your challenge, it is an alternative one, but i think you can see there things that can help ya. The run itself (way) seems good to me, collect order seems to be the best. But you can do it faster. EDIT: And the idea of start as Newgame+ is absolutely nice :) you will end with so many rings :D
TheYogWog wrote:
Hope you guys enjoy it.
I like it :)
~ [I]feeuzz
Posted: 9/6/2014 9:06 PM
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tensor
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Posting for the first time, please forgive any possible misunderstandings. TheYogWog, if you want to try some specific strategies, I did a test run for AIZ1 ring attack in early summer, and comparing it to your run, it was some seconds faster - the screen locks at in-game time 0:48. On the other hand, it wasn't newgame+, so I ignored the bonus ring and saved some time there. I began like in feeuzz's WIP, but after landing Sonic, I -spindashed Tails out of the screen (to the right) as soon as possible -visited the upper-left platform with Sonic while keeping Tails near the three rings between the 2nd and 3rd palm trees -used the spring on the 2nd palm tree to move Sonic straight to the middle platform just behind the 3rd palm tree; at the same time, I collected the three rings on the ground with Tails as they got loaded, after which Tails despawned -collected the three rings on the middle platform with Sonic; Tails had respawned and, by getting close to Sonic during the ring collecting jump, became controllable again. This might save a second or so. Later, after the loop, I -got the bubble shield with Sonic, while going for the three underwater rings with Tails -used the bubble instead of the spring for getting out of the water -started pushing the rock with Tails before Sonic arrived -used the bubble immediately after moving the rock out of the way, getting down faster -popped two monitors at once (IRC, not possible without the bubble) and bounced off the ground, and -popped the third monitor from the side (IRC, also not possible without the bubble) and used the spring to get out. I'm not sure how this approach would compare to using feeuzz's strategy while also getting the monitors, but I like having the bubble in the underwater tunnel of the second part of the level - you don't have to wait for the elevator if you have the bubble. I used a different order for some rings, but I'm not sure how it affects the time. Your run on the 'middle platform' as I called it was much better than mine. I hope that was at least somewhat understandable. I might upload the .gmv somewhere, if anyone wants to see it. You may recommend a file host, if you know a good one. I also have a question for everyone. I noticed while doing the test run that, as I mentioned, a respawned Tails can be controlled after he gets close enough to Sonic. I tried to search for information on it but wasn't successful. Are the exact conditions for it to happen known? Also, where exactly does he respawn?
Posted: 9/6/2014 10:55 PM
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WST
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tensor wrote:
You may recommend a file host, if you know a good one.
Use http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2 my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Posted: 9/7/2014 7:22 AM
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feeuzz22
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tensor wrote:
Posting for the first time, please forgive any possible misunderstandings. TheYogWog, if you want to try some specific strategies, I did a test run for AIZ1 ring attack in early summer, and comparing it to your run, it was some seconds faster - the screen locks at in-game time 0:48. On the other hand, it wasn't newgame+, so I ignored the bonus ring and saved some time there. I began like in feeuzz's WIP, but after landing Sonic, I -spindashed Tails out of the screen (to the right) as soon as possible -visited the upper-left platform with Sonic while keeping Tails near the three rings between the 2nd and 3rd palm trees -used the spring on the 2nd palm tree to move Sonic straight to the middle platform just behind the 3rd palm tree; at the same time, I collected the three rings on the ground with Tails as they got loaded, after which Tails despawned -collected the three rings on the middle platform with Sonic; Tails had respawned and, by getting close to Sonic during the ring collecting jump, became controllable again.
hmmm.. i'm trying to imagine it, and seems it miss some little details (or maybe i just miss them ^^) but i'm sure you collected them all. Also I think it is faster than TheYogWog's try.
tensor wrote:
This might save a second or so. Later, after the loop, I -got the bubble shield with Sonic, while going for the three underwater rings with Tails -used the bubble instead of the spring for getting out of the water -started pushing the rock with Tails before Sonic arrived -used the bubble immediately after moving the rock out of the way, getting down faster -popped two monitors at once (IRC, not possible without the bubble) and bounced off the ground, and -popped the third monitor from the side (IRC, also not possible without the bubble) and used the spring to get out. I'm not sure how this approach would compare to using feeuzz's strategy while also getting the monitors, but I like having the bubble in the underwater tunnel of the second part of the level - you don't have to wait for the elevator if you have the bubble.
Good, the idea of the bubble, mainly for the rings monitor into the ground, for the second part of act 1 (the elevator), maybe taking the lightning sheild can help (maybe not, as far as the rings are very linear and easy to collect as S+T), for the elevator in Upper position, Tails can help, no?
tensor wrote:
I also have a question for everyone. I noticed while doing the test run that, as I mentioned, a respawned Tails can be controlled after he gets close enough to Sonic. I tried to search for information on it but wasn't successful. Are the exact conditions for it to happen known? Also, where exactly does he respawn?
I don't want to say silly things. so, I don't know.
~ [I]feeuzz
Posted: 9/7/2014 1:32 PM
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marzojr
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tensor wrote:
I also have a question for everyone. I noticed while doing the test run that, as I mentioned, a respawned Tails can be controlled after he gets close enough to Sonic. I tried to search for information on it but wasn't successful. Are the exact conditions for it to happen known? Also, where exactly does he respawn?
If you look at my hud script, you can see timers for when Tails when despawn (the icon with his face in a red circle with a red slash through) and when he will respawn (just his face). You can prevent the despawn timer if you hurt Tails; getting him killed or jumping on a solid or platform object that is just offscreen will cause an immediate despawn. After Tails has despawned, the respawn timer will be initialized and will start running. While the respawn timer is going, you can press any button to force a respawn before the timer expires. Tails always respawns at with the same x cordinate as Sonic, and he spawns 192 pixels above Sonic (or 192 pixels below Sonic if anti-gravity is on). When he is flying to Sonic, he aims for Sonic's position of 2 frames ago. For Tails to fall back down, he must be at that exact y coordinate and Sonic must not be in a hurt state or dying; moreover, Tails must also be either:
  • at the exact X position Sonic was 2 frames ago; or
  • the absolute value of the distance between Tails and Sonic's old position divided by 16 (and limited to $C00), plus the absolute value of Sonic's current speed divided by 256, plus 1 must be smaler than the absolute value of the distance between Tails and Sonic's old position.
And that is it — all the conditions required for Tails to fall down.
Marzo Junior
Posted: 9/7/2014 8:28 PM
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TheYogWog
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feeuzz22 - Hey, yeah, thanks for linking that. I did watch it a number of times, it's helpful to see how others control the two. I should really stop being lazy and spend more time studying existing ST TASes, like going through frame by frame, I have a lot to learn. I only just recently figured out that you can load a state, enter the input for P1, then load that same state again, and input P2, and P1 will automatically perform the input you just entered. Previously I thought you had to enter P1 input, save that in a higher-up state, then load the lower state and enter P2. tensor - This is great, thanks for finally posting and letting us know about your efforts to create another ring attack TAS. I'm excited to see it, but I found your description a little hard to follow, it makes me wish you had posted something like this http://tinypic.com/r/359wjl0/8 so I could get a better idea of your route until the .gmv is posted. As far as specific route stuff your Act 1 I can't comment because I don't understand, but there's one thing I'd like to mention about shield selection for the end of the act, that might be important. Early in Act 2, there's a burning zip line that breaks half way down if you ride it, causing you to fall and miss a few rings near the end of the line. While it's in no way necessary to have the lightning shield at the beginning of Act 2 to get them, I think it might help speed up the process, as IIRC in my Knuckles run, I was able to just 6-tap spin dash off the ledge where the zipline is on (much quicker than riding it), and still collect all of the rings via the lightning shield's pull. Of course that's assuming Sonic can even make it to the zipline without losing his shield to the puddle underneath the first giant ring. I haven't tested it yet, so who knows, and besides, with good control of Tails it might also be faster even without the lightning shield or render the difference of having it vs not pretty insignificant. But anyway, I guess basically my point is just a friendly reminder it's important to keep in mind the needs of the next act in terms of shields when focusing on Act 1 route selection. Hopefully it's helpful... marzojr - Wow, that sounds so complicated! Maybe in time I will learn to understand it better. Thanks for explaining all that for everyone.
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Posted: 9/7/2014 8:59 PM
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marzojr
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TheYogWog wrote:
Of course that's assuming Sonic can even make it to the zipline without losing his shield to the puddle underneath the first giant ring.
I can think of two ways: (1) jumping as the ledge breaks so you can double-jump before the pool and avoid touching the water; (2) having Tails down there to catch Sonic before the puddle and jumping right. In both cases, you won't lose the shield until your center point is submerged (same for fire shield), at which point you are "underwater".
Marzo Junior
Posted: 9/7/2014 9:29 PM
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tensor
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Okay, here's the recording: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/50258790/s3k_ra_st_test.gmv It ends just before the boss of act 1, but the second part is mostly quite crude. The ROM used seems to be the same as in the Knuckles ring attack, "Sonic and Knuckles & Sonic 3.bin".
feeuzz22 wrote:
hmmm.. i'm trying to imagine it, and seems it miss some little details (or maybe i just miss them ^^) but i'm sure you collected them all. Also I think it is faster than TheYogWog's try.
I wasn't sure what would be the best way to explain it, but the recording should solve that problem.
feeuzz22 wrote:
Good, the idea of the bubble, mainly for the rings monitor into the ground, for the second part of act 1 (the elevator), maybe taking the lightning sheild can help (maybe not, as far as the rings are very linear and easy to collect as S+T), for the elevator in Upper position, Tails can help, no?
I thought the lightning shield wouldn't save enough time compared to using the bubble on the elevator, but somehow I didn't think of using Tails there. I'm not so sure about the bubble anymore. Thanks for the explanation on the respawn mechanics, it may save some time in the future. I did some preliminary planning for Act 2 when I made the practice run, but since I didn't know (and still don't know) how to visit Knuckles's section if it's possible, I quite much ignored it.
Posted: 9/7/2014 9:38 PM
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marzojr
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For S+T, Knuckles' area does not fully load and the camera locks too high; they can't go there. In other zones, things are better, but AIZ2 is not helpful.
Marzo Junior
Posted: 9/8/2014 3:45 AM
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TheYogWog
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marzojr wrote:
For S+T, Knuckles' area does not fully load and the camera locks too high; they can't go there. In other zones, things are better, but AIZ2 is not helpful.
Yeah, I think they might can get into certain parts of his area by glitching through the ground but doing so is pointless because the only way for them to get back out is by dying, which obviously takes away all rings. The total of all normal + monitor rings in AIZ is 520, but 97 rings are inside Knuckles' exclusive area. Since it's impossible for ST to get them, that means the max rings for AIZ for them should be 623, or 423 without giant rings. Since resetting the level boundary isn't necessary when playing as them, the overlapping rings thing isn't an issue and it's easy to calculate individual act totals too, for what that's worth. Including giant rings, Act 1 should be 343 and Act 2 is 377, or 243 and 277 without giant rings, respectively. tensor - Okay, I just watched the run. It looks pretty good. I like the way you use Tails to get rings that are just off screen at times.
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Posted: 9/8/2014 6:07 AM
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WST
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Btw, welcome to the world of TAS, tensor. Fasten your seatbelt and prepare for lolwut and wtf :) Damn, microstorage is down, as it often happens, maybe I need to set up my own gmv hosting for Sonic TASers?..
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Posted: 9/8/2014 11:46 AM
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hegyak
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/my#uploadfile That works too. Probably.
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Posted: 9/9/2014 7:07 PM
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WST
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Posted: 9/12/2014 2:00 AM
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marzojr
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Sky Sanctuary zone resisting attempts at being improved even after all these years: Link to video
Marzo Junior
Posted: 9/13/2014 8:03 PM
(Edited: 9/14/2014 10:51 AM)
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feeuzz22
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tensor wrote:
Okay, here's the recording: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/50258790/s3k_ra_st_test.gmv It ends just before the boss of act 1, but the second part is mostly quite crude. The ROM used seems to be the same as in the Knuckles ring attack, "Sonic and Knuckles & Sonic 3.bin". I wasn't sure what would be the best way to explain it, but the recording should solve that problem. I thought the lightning shield wouldn't save enough time compared to using the bubble on the elevator, but somehow I didn't think of using Tails there. I'm not so sure about the bubble anymore. Thanks for the explanation on the respawn mechanics, it may save some time in the future. I did some preliminary planning for Act 2 when I made the practice run, but since I didn't know (and still don't know) how to visit Knuckles's section if it's possible, I quite much ignored it.
Okay. I did not have enough time to TAS that week (and it will be the same for next one), but i did watch your gmv tonight, and tried to optimize a bit your run (to see how it could be if it was almost fully optimized), I did an attemp in half first part AIZ1 (1/4 of AIZ1). Here is my try don't pay attention to the end, i was testing something. The idea was to collect the three rings just over Sonic (at the end) by flying Tails there (but Tails is too small), maybe someone else can succeed. EDIT: same part, same way, just a few frames more.
~ [I]feeuzz
Posted: 9/13/2014 8:58 PM
Post subject: Floppy music
Quote
Mr_Sweed
Joined: 10/11/2006
Posts: 76
Location: Göteborg/Sweden
WST post Aquatic Ruin Zone music. Here is Ice Cap Zone Act 1: Link to video Enjoy! ^^
I'm not a speed runner, but a game lurker, that's my contribution to the scene. =)
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