Post by LCC

Posted: 7/26/2014 7:52 PM

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abyssonym

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 4

Hi everyone. I'm abyssonym, I do some FF6 hacking and speedrunning. Brossentia, I don't think that such an item could exist. The reason for this is because unlike BabaBreath, sketch is not a spell. It's hard coded into the battle system, and doesn't have a spell ID. You can see a list of spells and their corresponding items here: http://www.tales-cless.org/docs/ff6hack.htm#magic . For example, "Black Belt" has the same ID as "engulf". Something I wonder is whether "sneeze" could be used in a similar way as BabaBreath. As for Kutan strats, I've talked about it with LCC and he tends to think it's still worth it to get Celes, since she helps out against Number 024 and you can pick up some nice relics on the way to meet her. Also, Kutan dies very easily against espers and doesn't soak up damage as well as Celes. I would very much like for Kutan to become the standard though.

Posted: 7/26/2014 8:12 PM
(Edited: 7/26/2014 9:30 PM)

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Brossentia

Joined: 7/22/2014
Posts: 8

Well, technically, with a TAS, you're probably not going to need any of those relics. Earring could potentially be good, but the ribbon isn't; they'll be able to avoid all status effects. I also imagine that the TAS will abuse desperation attacks enough that earrings might not even be used. With that said, they might be helpful in console runs. That's a handy guide, abyssonym. It does disappoint me a bit that you can't get sketch that way, but the equip anything glitch in the JP version still needs a lot of exploring. I mean, it has some bizarre effects, and we might still be able to get some form of sketch to happen. If that included merging the battle menu with the magic menu instead of item with magic, we might enter some strange and beautiful territory. It's worth trying out eventually--no clue if it's even possible, but based on how busted the game is, it might be. EDIT: I'm having trouble getting Relm's "muddle" spell to work when doing 61EE. It's still in her spell list in battle, but it's not selectable. I'm wondering if I might have too many spells learned; it's showing up in slot 7. I'll probably need to go through the game and learn the spells that were pointed out earlier.

Posted: 7/26/2014 8:19 PM

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abyssonym

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 4

The Ribbon isn't used in a speed run, either. It's more about the Runningshoes, which will help Locke's turn come up quicker before finishing Zozo, so he can get Smoke Bombs off sooner. But the TAS manipulates preemptive strikes, anyway.

Posted: 7/26/2014 10:57 PM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

I started looking into using the Black Belt to cast Engulf because I wanted to skip the IAF and Floating Continent completely. But that requires either mould 1 or mould 3 to cooperate. Mould 3 crashes because the Intangir can't be fought except from the front. (It's a formation restriction.) So that leaves mould 1. According to the glorious spreadsheet there are only three ways to get Engulf directly from mould 1: 4D4 - get Quake, Merton, or W.Wind into position. (lol no) 2923 - get Haste 2 into position. (I don't think this is even possible?) 61EE - get some basic black magic into position. So I tried 61EE, and it crashed. Then I started experimenting with the Goggles + Black Belt plan because it seemed like it should work. But I couldn't solve the important planning issue of getting the last ally engulfed. If someone can figure out how then that would apply to the console runs. Finally I tried 61EE again, this time on the Triangle Island. And it worked! When I started working on the mini-route from Thamasa to the Triangle Island I ran into problems like "that's too many Dirks to sell", "sketching again erases the Moogle Charm in slot 255", and "oops my Goggles are gone". But I think I solved everything. To make sure Relm doesn't lose Muddle put her in slot 3 back during step 11. The Muscle Belt would cast Sneeze, if you could. Kind of funny that it's another belt. I thought about using Celes for the TAS because her natural magic is a bit better than Terra's. Celes learns Ice 2 naturally and Ice 2 is the spell I'm using to set up the SG. Celes would need less AP, but more XP. However XP is much faster to grind! But then I remembered the plot. Neither Terra nor Celes are available for the Mtek escape and Celes isn't available until after the FC appears. Since Terra can pick up at least a little bit of AP during the burning house she has an advantage. A console run however would probably want Celes because the TunnelArmr would be pretty hard otherwise. (I think you take the ThundrRod, kill the TunnelArmr by dumb luck, and use the ThundrRod on Number024.) The thing that kills Kutan for the console run is the lack of Sprint Shoes for the WoR. But if the menu merge version of Engulf can be made to work then maybe. EDIT: Thanks LCC! By the way you can just run away from Ifrit and Shiva. Start running as they're swapping places. I did it with Kutan just fine. All you need to do to trigger the swap is hit Ifrit 5 times. Damage doesn't matter.

Posted: 7/27/2014 12:53 AM

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LCC

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 12

Interesting stuff. And yes running from Ifrit has been known for a long time. Thunder rod is always fastest when used on Tunnel Armr; we've been putting Celes into memory by naming her then dying to warp back to the start of the scenario since Kad discovered it a while back.

Posted: 7/27/2014 5:41 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Oh. It was new to me! Neither of the TASes ran from the espers. I don't understand the naming Celes and dying trick? I just tried it during Locke's scenario and her name appeared as Kutan when the TunnelArmr attacked.

Posted: 7/27/2014 9:24 AM

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LCC

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 12

This is a video i made of the Locke scenario a while ago: http://www.twitch.tv/thelcc/c/3737489 I'm having the same problem of muddle not being targetable regardless of what character slot she is in or magic order used on 61EE. It seems like anything that targets the enemy by deault is impossible to use.

Posted: 7/27/2014 3:11 PM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Oh I was overthinking it. I saved, named Celes, ran the same route you did to the nearest soldier, 'died', 'respawned', glitched outside, and went to go find a random encounter to kill myself on. I wasn't thinking of the soldier death as a death so I wasn't sure what was going on. I thought you were describing something more like the airship glitch where you have to die for real. (Nevermind.) I just finished a test run and my workaround for the targeting problem during the 61EE sketch was ridiculous. - Put MarvelShoes on Terra and Relm. (Thanks to the previous glitch.) - Put Phantom on Terra. (My Relm learned Muddle/Imp while Terra learned Ice 2.) - Encounter a lone Leafer. - Terra casts Slow on the Leafer. - Relm confirms Muddle on Terra. Terra confirms Phantom. Muddle does not miss. - (Terra should hit herself within the next few moves.) - Imp Terra. - Use any mp restoring item on Terra. - Use another mp restoring item on Terra. - Imp Terra twice more. - Use two more mp restoring items on Terra. *deep breath* - Muddle Terra. Now Terra must remain Muddled for the rest of the fight. - Terra, don't be bad. - Relm uses Sketch. Terra's Engulf spell is castable despite Imp status. - Super duper randomly, Terra chooses to Engulf Relm before Engulfing herself. The TAS can do this. It took me a few hours of saving, reloading, advancing one frame, and pressing 'A', but I got there. The luck is insane but the correct random numbers are thankfully present in the right order in the RNG table. For an unassisted run, I'll get back to you later. :x Other things I figured out during my test run: - The X-Potion can be had from the Imperial Palace for no loss. (Gotta talk to soldiers.) - I need 8 MP restorative items such as Elixir, Tincture, or Ether. Hopefully they're all on the way. Just 4 is okay though because more can be bought while selling items on the airship for just a few seconds. (This is while you're equipping the Moogle Charms.) The cost of buying 4 more Tinctures is so slow that it might not even be worth it to steal 4. (Steal one, maybe.) - Using BabaBreath on Inferno/Striker/Rough has a strange result. First, he doesn't go flying offscreen. Second, the character in the same slot as the enemy slot you targeted goes flying instead! This person is removed from your party entirely. One team in Kefka's tower can have 4 members so make it team #2. - You can actually play 2/3rds of Kefka's Tower with the camera broken if you're willing to tolerate the invisible walls that your characters sometimes leave behind. But the save and reload can't be skipped. Even if you could reach all 3 final switches then the credits would hang. - I chose to grind my AP in the Phantom Forest. The common enemy there is a lone Ghost with just 226 hp. And yet somehow this formation is worth 3 AP? Almost nothing else before the FC is worth 2, nevermind 3. - Spells are collapsed per-party. This means that Terra doesn't need to learn Muddle/Imp from Stray since Relm learns those while Terra learns Ice 2.

Posted: 7/27/2014 10:30 PM

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LCC

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 12

That's basically the same conclusion i came to as well. I've been working on using black belt with the goggles setup, but the only one i got to work so far is set to target all allies and enemies, which makes the game confused to say the least. I'm going to look through and see if i can get a BB in the 184th slot that targets a single ally or enemy while having a shield be put into the right arm slot of relm so I can attack with goggles after the sketch glitch. In an actual run I would be manipulating encounters to get intangirs consistently and jokerdoom them. For testing, farming single ghosts with frame skip is the way to go for sure. I probably wouldn't use bababreath on any tower bosses except for goddess and just jokerdoom everything else.

Posted: 7/29/2014 12:18 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Another way to do the Goggles glitch besides using a shield is to put two invalid items on someone. You should attack with both. So if you can't wait until after the battle is over to equip a shield then probably there's one dumb piece of junk from your sketch attempt that fits into whoever's L-hand. It also kind of makes the timing easier. How are you going to get everyone Engulfed using the Black Belt method? Because regardless of the spell's targets it seems to always only suck up (and flag) one player or enemy. The only way I can think of to get the last person to cast Engulf is with mimic, and obviously there's a problem there. I had given up on encounter manipulation for TASes but for this it might be worth looking into. Even like, the Floating Continent, where I could both manipulate away the dreaded Ninjas and ensure myself the most possible steps before the first encounter, it just wasn't worth it. The save and load process takes too long. Since the TAS can dispatch the lone ghost with 200 hp pretty quickly it's not immediately obvious which is faster. Something which I now think beats both of those is actually fighting the flames in the burning house. They're worth 2 AP and Strago can wipe them out with Aqua Rake. Terra will have Shiva equipped (for the setup) and can also cast Ice. Because part of the problem with grinding extra AP is wasting all those steps to get into the next battle. That's three things to test. Unassisted though the Intangir definitely beats the Phantom Forest.

Posted: 7/29/2014 5:35 AM

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LCC

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 12

You would be using a gem box to double cast the engulf, same as before.

Posted: 7/29/2014 2:14 PM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Oh, duh. >_< Sometimes I need the obvious stuff pointed out. I somehow discovered that the targeting restriction is lifted when sketching 3A9, but only in the forest! And the resulting Black Belt in slot 184 is freely aimable. I think this is now fastest for both the TAS and a realtime run: 1) Spell setup designed to put Remedy into position 28. I can do everything with 3xx. Fire Ice Bolt Poison Drain Fire2 Ice2 Bolt2 Bio (snip) Scan Slow Rasp Mute Safe Sleep Muddle Haste Stop Bserk Float Imp (snip) Cure Cure2 Cure3 Life Life2 Antdot Remedy Regen Life3 This requires: - Unicorn 3x for Remedy. 34 AP - Siren x7 for Sleep, Mute, and Slow. 15 AP - Stray x5 for Muddle and Imp. 20 AP - Shoat x8 for just Bio. 13 AP - Terra's natural magic. It can be done with just one Intangir, too: - Unicorn - Locke - 17 from mtek escape, 3 from Vector, 4 from house, +10 = 34 - Stray - Edgar - 17 from mtek escape, 4 from Number024 = 20 - Siren - Terra - 3 from Vector, 4 from Flame Eater, +10 = 17 - Shoat - Edgar - 3 banquet, +10 = 13 This means that your party must be Locke, Terra, Edgar, Relm when you perform the Sketch Glitch. (And replace Relm with Setzer when you kill the Intangir.) 2) Set up 3FA, like before. Have Edgar cast Imp on Locke and other characters can use Green Cherries, Tincture, etc. Equip Phantom on Terra and use Edgar's Muddle to vanish the enemy. Sketch. Equip the Goggles which you previously placed in slot 184 to the L-hands of Terra, Edgar, and Relm. Run. Even though the Moogle Charm is in slot 255, arrange your inventory. Then move the Moogle Charm to slot 184. 3) Get into another encounter in the forest. This time set up 3A9 and sketch. - Move the Moogle Charm up a slot to 183. - Move the (new) Gem Box in slot 185 up a slot to 184. - Sketch again. - Exchange the Black Belt with the Gem Box. Equip the Gem Box to Locke. - Sketch again. - Equip the Moogle Charms to the R-hands of at least 3 people. - Have one of the Moogle Charm / Googles dual wielders attack and set up the Goggles glitch. Have Locke use Engulf on the other two people. - Do it again, having Locke Engulf himself last. When I X-Magic'd the Black Belt I could freely aim it at my allies. So I could eat two party members at a time. Munch munch munch! If this works you'll be in the Zone Eater and your party will have the Moogle Charm active immediately. This eliminates a slim chance of an unescapable encounter on your way to the exit. It also saves all that time going to the airship, changing your party members twice, and selling equipment.

Posted: 7/29/2014 3:39 PM

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abyssonym

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 4

You need Setzer to Joker Doom the Intangir, I'm guessing? If you have Smoke Bombs and Muddle, you can do it with Relm instead. Cast Muddle on Relm and have her use a Smoke Bomb, and she'll use it on Intangir and the party will still earn AP from the battle. There are certain circumstances where this trick will fail, but I think I've grokked it. If you use the smoke bomb too quickly after casting muddle, it won't work. I'm guessing that the cutoff point is after the person using muddle enters their "casting" state.

Posted: 7/29/2014 7:57 PM

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LCC

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 12

Great stuff, i'll do some testing later.

Posted: 7/29/2014 11:31 PM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Doh. A Gem Box equipped mid-battle does not grant X-Magic. I was trying to avoid sketching three times. So for the TAS my crazy luck manipulation with haste setup from July 27th will work. For unassisted runs three sketches will be needed: 1) Sketch mould 0 3FA for Tinctures and a Gem Box or mould 1 3A9 just to get a Gem Box. Run, and equip it to the leader's relic slot. 2) Sketch mould 1 3FA for the previously mentioned Moogle Charm and equip the Goggles to character three's L-hand. 3) Sketch mould 1 3A9 in the forest like I just described. The Goggles and the Moogle Charm are both "shields" (or "not weapons", whatever is going on) and so they can't be equipped simultaneously. This is how the equipment will look: Leader, Locke: (replaced) (replaced) -> (leave it) Moogle Charm Edgar: (replaced) (blank) -> (leave it) Moogle Charm Terra: (replaced) Goggles -> (anything abnormal) Goggles Relm: (replaced) (blank) -> (leave it) Moogle Charm But this leaves only one Goggles wielder. Plus Setzer that leaves only two ways to insta kill things in Kefka's Domain. Grabbing Gogo is a lot faster with the Moogle Charm so I guess do that? Echo Screen/JD is more comfortable to do unassisted anyway. EDIT: cancel everything. When I use the Gem Box to cast the Black Belt twice, it auto-retargets the enemies. This can be circumvented with a Muddle spell, but you still need someone to attack with Goggles. So I can't get the last two people through. I think the dual 3FA / 61EE setup must be used. The TAS will use crazy luck manipulation to do it in two sketches while the unassisted run needs a Gem Box first. (And more Intangirs.) EDIT2: Oh wait, the unassisted run is done on the JP rom and can't sketch, right? I'm going to go outside, then I'll come back and mess around with the Cursed Shld. Maybe I can equip it, lock in two Engulf casts, and eat both people. Hopefully because of the weirdness of the menu merge equipping the Cursed Shld doesn't immediately punt me out of the menu.

Posted: 7/30/2014 1:35 AM

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LCC

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 12

It shows i'm able to single target an ally, but it still ends up engulfing the enemy. Any ideas? Edit: I have it working by using muddle before the engulf, but I always need at least 3 people to set it up: 1 for goggles, engulf, and muddle respectively. The only possible solution I see is to have the character with muddle to equip a black belt as a relic before battle and have them be the character with goggles in battle. This would let you counter with the goggles animation, while selecting muddle during the enemy's attack animation.

Posted: 7/30/2014 3:58 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Yeah, that's the problem I had when I made the first edit. I think your suggestion will work. I'm trying it now but it's taking a lot of luck manipulation. Also, how do you get the Gem Box in the Japanese version? EDIT: Yes! The Black Belt does work. But it needs all of the following to happen: - Terra enters with the Gem Box equipped. - Relm enters with Goggles, Phantom, and a Black Belt equipped. - Both members need Muddle. 1) Terra casts Muddle, Muddle, on Relm while Relm casts Phantom. 2) Set up the 3A9 SG and execute it. 3) Replace the darts in Relm's right hand with the Minerva (closest invalid thing). 4) Move the useable Black Belt to the top of your inventory. * dumb luck time* 5) Relm confirms Muddle on Terra. 6) With Terra's cursor over X-Magic, one of the enemies must hit Relm. 7) Relm must counter. Enter the merged menu. * end dumb luck time* * very quickly * 8) While the Muddle animation is playing scroll down 6 rows then up to the top. 9) Mash A as fast as possible to confirm both Engulfs (any targets). * end very quickly * * get lucky * 10) No enemies disrupt Terra. 11) Terra Engulfs Relm first. There's kind of no way to recover if the luck goes bad or if the enemies don't attack. I can watch memory and confirm step 5 when the enemy ATB gauges are full, but you kind of have to "feel it" unassisted. There might be a better way or at least a way where you can just try again if it fails. I'll look for some boring 41FF setups that work. EDITga: Solved it. When doing the 61EE sketch the "himsham" spell to the left of " la " is actually Lv 3 Muddle. Terra is level 12 because I used her natural magic Drain as part of the setup. So even when targeting is disabled she can solo Muddle+Engulf. It's still a coin flip if she eats herself first.

Posted: 7/30/2014 4:37 PM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

I'm glad I spent all that time on route planning. Because sketching an Intangir with setup 312 puts you into the Zone Eater after a 2-3 minute delay. The dual 3xx/61xx setup isn't needed anymore. So use the pure 3xx setup.

Fire Ice Bolt Poison Drain Fire2 Ice2 Bolt2 Bio (snip) Scan Slow Rasp Mute Safe Sleep Muddle Haste Stop Bserk Float Imp (snip) Cure Cure2 Cure3 Life Life2 Antdot Remedy Regen Life3 This requires: - Unicorn 3x for Remedy. 34 AP - Siren x7 for Sleep, Mute, and Slow. 15 AP - Stray x5 for Muddle and Imp. 20 AP - Shoat x8 for just Bio. 13 AP - Terra's natural magic. It can be done with just one Intangir, too: - Unicorn - Locke - 17 from mtek escape, 3 from Vector, 4 from house, +10 = 34 - Stray - Edgar - 17 from mtek escape, 4 from Number024 = 20 - Siren - Terra - 3 from Vector, 4 from Flame Eater, +10 = 17 - Shoat - Edgar - 3 banquet, +10 = 13

Using four party members is no problem since there is no more Engulf. Terra still needs to learn Drain naturally though. First put your Goggles into slot 184. Then get into a grass encounter and sketch 3FA. Equip the Goggles to the R-Hands of everyone except Locke. Then run. Arrange your inventory to make the Moogle Charms appear. (The second sketch will overwrite slot 255 again.) Now move the Moogle Charm into slot 184. Encounter an Intangir, set up 312, and sketch. Relm will be frozen for 2 minutes but during this time each of the other three characters can mess with the item menu. Put the Moogle Charm on everyone except Relm. The battle will automatically end. Edgar, Terra, and Relm all have Goggles. Locke, Terra, and Edgar now also have Moogle Charms. Pick up a Force Shld in Kefka's Tower and put it in Relm's L-Hand. Some of the bosses in Kefka's Tower seem to "reflect" BabaBreath. That's super weird and I have no idea what that's all about. But which character gets exiled seems to depend on which enemy slot you target. So it's consistent at least and I think you can plan on who gets punted.

Posted: 7/30/2014 5:21 PM

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abyssonym

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 4

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but if you have any dead party members, BabaBreath will automatically target them no matter who you select. That might account for the strange targeting issues you're experiencing.

Posted: 7/31/2014 7:28 PM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Oh that makes sense with what I've seen. Thank you. We get "0x Flame Shld" from the second sketch so hopefully no one dies from Atomic Ray anymore. (Unassisted.) Plus the Marvel Shoes. Any progress on the TAS? I don't think the SG can be improved further unless a better exploit is found.

Posted: 8/2/2014 11:54 PM

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LCC

Joined: 7/26/2014
Posts: 12

I haven't been able to get it to work; It does change after a couple minutes, but i'm left with a soft locked party of petrified imps and a floating morphed relm.

Posted: 8/3/2014 6:25 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Leave party slot 4 vacant. Yeah, that ruins the route. It adds one more Intangir. - After Thamasa swap Strago for Setzer like you normally do. - Manipulate and kill two Intangirs for the magic route. - Fight the next random battle (Leafer) and sketch 3FA. -- Put Goggles into the L-Hand of Terra and Relm before escaping. - Optimum Setzer and he should get a Moogle Charm on his helmet. - Ditch Setzer on the airship. Land to the right of the forest. - Manipulate another Intangir and sketch 312. -- Put the (previously carefully placed) Moogle Charm on Terra and Locke. Setzer comes equipped with a Bandana as standard equipment - but he can't use it! The first sketch should give you no helmets. Therefore the Moogle Charm goes straight onto Setzer's head, no problem. If you do have spare helmets for some reason then earlier in your route during some "free time" move them into an item slot that will be overwritten by the SG. Two Intangirs isn't the worst. They can potentially be fought back-to-back with a single manipulation. (Unlike three, which would be bad.) Unicorn - 34 AP for Locke - 18 carts*, 2 banquet*, 4 Flame Eater, 10 Intangir Siren - 15 AP for Locke - 4 Number024, 1 banquet*, 10 Intangir Shoat - 13 AP for Terra** - 4 Flame Eater, 10 Intangir Stray - 20 AP for Relm - 20 Intangir * Either manipulate the carts AND fiddle with menus during the banquet sequence, or, accidentally fight something in the burning house. ** Do not let Terra reach 20 AP! When switching Unicorn for Siren, take Shoat off.

Posted: 8/9/2014 9:28 AM

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keylie

He/Him

Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2845)

Joined: 3/17/2013
Posts: 392

Catastrophe wrote:

Any progress on the TAS? I don't think the SG can be improved further unless a better exploit is found.

Hey! I was on vacation. The TAS is currently before the Mog fight in Narshe. The Intangir SG is good news! On Bizhawk 1.7.0, the freezing takes 1-2 minutes. We still have to compute if it's faster than Engulf, because of the extra freezing and the longer magic route. The 312 setup really sucks to get :(

Posted: 8/11/2014 7:44 AM

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Catastrophe

Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA

keylie wrote:

Catastrophe wrote:
Any progress on the TAS? I don't think the SG can be improved further unless a better exploit is found.
Hey! I was on vacation. The TAS is currently before the Mog fight in Narshe. The Intangir SG is good news! On Bizhawk 1.7.0, the freezing takes 1-2 minutes. We still have to compute if it's faster than Engulf, because of the extra freezing and the longer magic route. The 312 setup really sucks to get :(

Yeah it does suck to get Remedy. And the TAS can manipulate Muddle with haste. I don't envy testing that. I'll give BizHawk a try and watch your WIP! I'm looking forward to it. Glad to hear you're back.

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