Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
The C++ source code for the program I made is here: http://pastebin.com/Qu3cx6Nf
It may be a bit tricky to work with as I didn't write it for public usage, but here you go. There's a table of all the level data in the file (i.e. clocks/GCs obtained or needed, other requirements, etc.)
You can change the amount of clocks to obtain in a stage visit by modifying the clocks number in the table (and making sure you get it later instead so the data still adds up properly). For example, to skip a clock in What's Cookin' Doc (1) to get it in (3), change
The main() function has a commented-out function to try finding random routes to get the shortest route possible. However, it can take a lot of tries (hundreds of millions) until it finds a perfect route. It also has a function for calculating a route given an array of level ids, which is useful for seeing how much time a certain route takes, or if it is even possible.
It's a bit puzzling, I guess, but I hope it can be useful to you.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
I have now re-written the bot to optimize the random-route calculation further, and added all the variable factors you listed. Will run during the night, and most of tomorrow.
Even with the added optimizations, it will be much slower, as it will loop another million times or so.
Edit: Was bored, so I rewrote the randomizer to a brute-force search. Hopefully it will be able to complete in decent time, as I only need to brute-force 16 level-options. Giving me a 16! loop execution + variables estimation. I am expecting to end up with the same route as you, but one can never know for sure.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
I had to abort the routing calculator, an estimate (not considering the variables) told me that it would take me 5 years with my computing power to calculate the best route. Feels like that would take too long.
Anyway, while waiting for the router (before calculating a possible completion-time), I checked some walkthroughs on YT to remember where everything is. When looking Follow The Red Pirate Road a comment said they managed to use super-jump to get behind the "open sesame" rock without unlocking the magic words. Perhaps breaking this level is possible in the same fashion as The Greatest Escape? I tested quickly in PSXjin and it seems like it can be done. (Using the super-jump spell pad and changing direction towards the rock before the cutscene).
The exact comment was:
"
7:49 if you use the super jump here, with some luck, you can go in that room that requires the magical words, i tried, but i don't remember if you can get out without exiting the level"
Perhaps something to play around with?
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
That's a very nice find. I'll look into it. If it can be done, it could save having to revisit and redo half the stage over again, and possibly shorten the route further.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I had to abort the routing calculator, an estimate (not considering the variables) told me that it would take me 5 years with my computing power to calculate the best route. Feels like that would take too long.
Maybe cloud-computing can be a thing, if you get enough process power. I'm sure there are people who'd like to help.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
Mothrayas wrote:
That's a very nice find. I'll look into it. If it can be done, it could save having to revisit and redo half the stage over again, and possibly shorten the route further.
Since we only get one extra clock it isn't doing anything to help the route, but it does save having to do half the level twice.
Since it is most likely impossible to get out again, this would have to be appended at the end of the level, instead of going through the end-hole, we'd go back, glitch behind the rock and collect the final items.
TASeditor wrote:
Warepire wrote:
I had to abort the routing calculator, an estimate (not considering the variables) told me that it would take me 5 years with my computing power to calculate the best route. Feels like that would take too long.
Maybe cloud-computing can be a thing, if you get enough process power. I'm sure there are people who'd like to help.
I don't know how to set such a thing up, for this to be done relatively fast through, I'd need somewhere around 14! (! the mathematical operand, not the shouting symbol) computers with an average processing power of 4.5 GHz dedicating a full 24h.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Warepire wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
That's a very nice find. I'll look into it. If it can be done, it could save having to revisit and redo half the stage over again, and possibly shorten the route further.
Since we only get one extra clock it isn't doing anything to help the route, but it does save having to do half the level twice.
I haven't tested anything yet, so I can't say anything for sure, but any single clock could help. Maybe it makes another Planet X File-Vort X Room route (more) viable, which could be neat. At the very least, it'd allow the current route while leaving out the spiral tower Clock in What's Cookin' Doc 1.
Anyway, after 10 minutes of trying, I couldn't manage to get over the wall yet (in the PC version). I'll try some more later.
Warepire wrote:
Since it is most likely impossible to get out again, this would have to be appended at the end of the level, instead of going through the end-hole, we'd go back, glitch behind the rock and collect the final items.
Yeah, I was already thinking it'd be something like that. Go through the level like usual until the end, get the final clock, deathwarp back (depending on how far back Bugs respawns, that'd save a number of seconds. I think that level has no checkpoints, so it'd put Bugs back to outside, which isn't that far away). Still much better than doing the first few rooms again.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
Mothrayas wrote:
Warepire wrote:
Since it is most likely impossible to get out again, this would have to be appended at the end of the level, instead of going through the end-hole, we'd go back, glitch behind the rock and collect the final items.
Yeah, I was already thinking it'd be something like that. Go through the level like usual until the end, get the final clock, deathwarp back (depending on how far back Bugs respawns, that'd save a number of seconds. I think that level has no checkpoints, so it'd put Bugs back to outside, which isn't that far away). Still much better than doing the first few rooms again.
It could also be a platform dependent glitch (like a slight difference in hitbox caused by the PSX inability to use floats compared to the PC)
I'll see if I can play around some more with it in PSXjin. I need to figure out some more RAM addresses for this game anyway. (I found some in case you missed the wch I posted on the previous page)
EDIT:
Well, I was an idiot for not keeping a savestate, because now I cannot give myself super-jump ability without softlocking the game. I'll see if I can find the time to dust off my PS2 and the game disc some day.
I did however update the watch file some, some new useful addresses, some less useful but nice to know. Grab here: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/10944999499280942
What I still want to find is: In-level total golden carrots, clocks and boxes, and a better movement-vector, the current one keeps giving a speed even when you absolutely cannot move further because of a wall getting in the way.
Another EDIT:
I discovered that the game can sometimes be unfrozen by opening/closing the disc-tray in PSXjin, I have no idea what this means but it might help debug this issue if someone has the time.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
Warepire wrote:
Another EDIT:
I discovered that the game can sometimes be unfrozen by opening/closing the disc-tray in PSXjin, I have no idea what this means but it might help debug this issue if someone has the time.
Further testing tells me that this can resolve all softlocks caused by obtaining special powers and the save-after-level-exit conversation with Merlin. The clock in Nowhere still cannot be obtained no matter what, and also using special powers is a permanent softlock.
The fact that the game doesn't fully freeze, makes me think it's stuck in a busy loop waiting for something that never comes, either because it comes too early and the game discards it because it's unexpected... or because the emulator never triggers it / doesn't handle it right.
Due to my lack of understanding of how the PSX works internally I cannot debug this problem and I don't have any time to study this console at the moment as all my major spare time goes into trying to make Hourglass more useful.
If anyone is willing to debug PSXjin and fix the accuracy so that this game works it would be awesome. And hopefully this little testing can help narrow down the possible causes to the problems.
I am still puzzled to how I could test the possible trick in Follow The Red Pirate Road the first time.. Gonna try to really make time to dust off my PS2 and see if I can figure this glitch out as it would be nice to be able to do it.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
While trying to find better a better way to monitor speed I discovered this little thing in Nowhere while goofing off:
The "walked off a ledge" jump can be triggered from TNT boxes. Should make the TNT box GC not require the Ears-action anymore. (I triggered in on the second TNT box, and the jump let me collect the carrot)
Also regarding the mallet GC, you get one more green box than you need, perhaps a box can be successfully thrown during the green box GC box stuff to trigger the spawn of the mallet GC. It's really hard to get the box thrown in the right angle, but TASing should fix it.
EDIT:
Updated RAM watch: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/11121287892615633
The watch adds position coordinates, and a GC roll-over counter (not kidding...)
LUA script version: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/11121287892615633
This is my first ever LUA script, so it's very simple and probably clumsy, but it does what I want, so I am quite proud. The script uses the position coordinates to calculate speed instead of the speed vector, the speed is quite interesting, do play around with it to get a feel for it.
Still want to find: In-level totals of GCs, clocks and ACME boxes.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
New LUA: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/11431017349789927
Added angle, thanks for FatRatKnight for helping me with the math.
Fixed speed calculations, the speed isn't really as weird as I first thought.
Still haven't found in-level totals for GCs, clocks and ACME boxes... No address contains the right number for more than 2 levels according to my search...
Still also need to take the time to dust off my PS2 and play around with that potential Follow The Red Pirate Road skip.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Interesting to see someone speedrunning this game. The time is also interesting; I expected it to be longer than 2 hours.
Since it's any%, which clocks does it not get? And are there any particularly interesting abuses/tricks? (I currently don't have time to watch the full run, so I'd like to know if there's anything particularly notable).
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
Mothrayas wrote:
Interesting to see someone speedrunning this game. The time is also interesting; I expected it to be longer than 2 hours.
Since it's any%, which clocks does it not get? And are there any particularly interesting abuses/tricks? (I currently don't have time to watch the full run, so I'd like to know if there's anything particularly notable).
I haven't watched it all yet, just until Planet X File. So far he has gotten all the clocks I think, but he is ignoring a lot of GCs.
So far he abuses the bounce from breaking ACME boxes and killing enemies in interesting ways, it reduced a lot of box usage (the small stepping boxes).
The added height from the dive is also abused in some instances to skip stepping boxes.
Also jumping when coming out of a roll apparently gives you a nice distance increase. (At least I didn't know this before).
A couple of other tricks he have used so far is "saving" timed bombs when dealing with those pirates in masts.
The way he fought Mugsey in The Greatest Escape was a nice strategy.
General damage/death abuse, some are quite interesting.
I probably forgot some things as well. It is a very rough speedrun, the time can come down some minutes, sub 1:50 should not be impossible.
EDIT:
The 4 skipped clocks are:
What's Cookin' Doc? ACME box clock
The 2 final clocks of Train Your Brain
Downhill Duck
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
New LUA: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/14027044970595970
Updates:
In-level total GCs, Clocks, and ACME boxes.
Can now detect the Music-ability.
This is pretty much complete now, only Fan ability and Sesame ability left to add to the script I think. Only thing missing now is a better PSX emulator.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
New 100% RTA run, quite unoptimal carrot route (overshots 99 carrots by A LOT for every single 99 carrot collect), no new glitches shown.
Runner mentioned something about 2½ hours being a possible time.
http://www.twitch.tv/cirno_beats_sanae/c/4406018
Also fired up this game in Arbex (Xebra HLE BIOS version) and played some with the possibility of getting through the rock or over a wall to skip the re-visit in Follow The Red Pirate Road, doesn't look too doable :(
Can provide save-state if you want to play around with this Moth.
And a technical thing I noticed:
The TAS should be done without memory cards inserted, skips Merlins question of saving or not. Should save 1-1½ second each level-exit.
Sub 2:30 was completed faster than I previously thought. Now I imagine that a 100% single segment run could be done in a low ~2:10~teens. Any% will be at least a 1:45 single segment, if not 1:30.
Carrot route is not concrete for now due to the pure fact that improvisation is actually a handy tool in real time and single segment attempts. So an accidental death (most likely due to the awful PC camera) can actually be a blessing as a 2nd run through the area to collect additional carrots that are skipped the first time. In the distant future of 100% runs, any damage taken that isn't intended for a death or a barrier clip will instantly trash the run.
As an example:
Segmented route of What's Cookin' Doc #1 collects 86 carrots. I don't think I've ever achieved more than 76 carrots during that visit in a single segment run. Instead, 'checkpoints' are used instead of a tombstone approach to carrot collection. Essentially we just make sure our carrot count is empty before reaching larger collection levels such as The Carrot Henge Mystery, Mine or Mine, What's Cookin' Doc, and Objects In The Mirror Are Closer Than They Appear.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Update: I tested running this game on Octoshock (PSXHawk). It went through the Merlin/first clock cutscene as well as the end-of-stage scenes with Merlin with no problems, so I'm assuming it will work for the rest of the game as well. Looks like TASing this game will finally be possible.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Update: I tested running this game on Octoshock (PSXHawk). It went through the Merlin/first clock cutscene as well as the end-of-stage scenes with Merlin with no problems, so I'm assuming it will work for the rest of the game as well. Looks like TASing this game will finally be possible.
