So uhh Werster is a beast for doing this:
http://www.twitch.tv/werster/b/476032559http://www.twitch.tv/werster/b/476138513http://www.twitch.tv/werster/b/476147376http://www.twitch.tv/werster/b/476229932http://www.twitch.tv/werster/b/476584788
And uhh yeah... a TAS run of this category would be pretty sweet to watch. This kind of run would be hell to actually do alone, but I know FractalFusion, GoddessMaria and etc has done some work on this game. Any thoughts?
Some things I've seen in Werster's run that can change:
1. Not using Metagross and replace with Swellow
2. Swellow/Mudkip evolution line would be the main pokes to use in the story part.
3. Hariyamma could deffinitely be an option when caught in Victory Road. That would ultimately save time having to not catch Latios. Hell, the last poke, doesn't even have to be a legit set.
Can't think atm, but I'm sure there's more routing ideas I can think of later on..
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
The problem with Swellow is that it would have to get statused every fight in order for Guts+Facade to kick in and do the big damage. It's probably possible, but it would require some stupid manipulation for every regular Frontier match, and wouldn't work for some of the Frontier Brains.
Latios could be caught pretty quickly after the Elite Four with some luck manipulation, and is probably worth more than Hariyama. Hariyama would practically require a Quick Claw to do anything useful, and I don't think he has good moves either. Latios has a better movepool and better stats. Base 110 speed would probably outspeed most other things.
EDIT: I guess you could do something completely stupid with Hariyama with Belly Drum, Guts and Quick Claw and proceed to OHKO basically everything, but that still takes a turn of setup and wastes time every round. Besides that, Medicham is probably an overall better choice, who can also be caught in Victory Road.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
What should the level of optimization for the Battle Frontier part be? 'Absolutely as fast as I can think of making it' or 'every challenge is annihilated quickly with perfect luck and no holdups'?
For me this is a bit of an odd category.
Having googled how many wins are needed for the Gold symbols, it looks like a hell of a lot of battle grinding tacked on at the end of the run in the battle tower. Also, since iirc the Frontier doesn't open until after the E4, the run wouldn't end on the credits, and I feel that wouldn't give it much closure.
This category is clearly inappropriate for the vault (unless you have a strange definition of 100% completion) and may not be entertaining enough to reach moons. I would love to be proven wrong about this.
I think the Pokemon run we all want to see done is a save-corrupted GSC run. But I guess that will have to wait until people understand the mechanism and can manipulate the map distortion patterns consistently.
thatguy: The entertainment from doing all gold symbols in the battle frontier is the extreme difficulty of it. It can take 100s of hours for a casual player to finish the battle frontier, main reason being that if you lose then you have to start progress towards that gold symbol over. Even werster who is really pokemon experienced plugged about 20 hours into that one speedrun and I think only got one gold symbol in that time.
thatguy: The entertainment from doing all gold symbols in the battle frontier is the extreme difficulty of it. It can take 100s of hours for a casual player to finish the battle frontier, main reason being that if you lose then you have to start progress towards that gold symbol over. Even werster who is really pokemon experienced plugged about 20 hours into that one speedrun and I think only got one gold symbol in that time.
But it's not hard at all under TAS conditions! (And when I say that, I mean completing the Frontier isn't hard. Beating it optimally still is of course.)
Yeah, maybe seeing a real-time speedrun would be legitimately impressive, but that's an entirely different story. Real-time players are best served taking on the tower with strategies that have been cleverly designed to protect against bad luck. In a TAS there is no bad luck, so you're just watching more luck manipulation when you've already sat through an hour and a half of it, and after seeing Stephen soloed by a paralysed Swellow, it would take quite a lot for anything in the tower to top that.
Still, the fact that I personally don't like the idea is not a valid reason for this run to not be made, as long as enough people find it entertaining. If anyone decides to take it on, I wish them good luck.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
thatguy wrote:
Patashu wrote:
thatguy: The entertainment from doing all gold symbols in the battle frontier is the extreme difficulty of it. It can take 100s of hours for a casual player to finish the battle frontier, main reason being that if you lose then you have to start progress towards that gold symbol over. Even werster who is really pokemon experienced plugged about 20 hours into that one speedrun and I think only got one gold symbol in that time.
But it's not hard at all under TAS conditions! (And when I say that, I mean completing the Frontier isn't hard. Beating it optimally still is of course.)
Yeah, maybe seeing a real-time speedrun would be legitimately impressive, but that's an entirely different story. Real-time players are best served taking on the tower with strategies that have been cleverly designed to protect against bad luck. In a TAS there is no bad luck, so you're just watching more luck manipulation when you've already sat through an hour and a half of it, and after seeing Stephen soloed by a paralysed Swellow, it would take quite a lot for anything in the tower to top that.
Still, the fact that I personally don't like the idea is not a valid reason for this run to not be made, as long as enough people find it entertaining. If anyone decides to take it on, I wish them good luck.
This I believe can be somewhat compared to Castlevania Aria Of Sorrow's all souls TAS. Some souls takes you hours to grind when playing normally, when TASing it's rather easy (excluding optimization work). Still the result is a joy to watch.
But it's not hard at all under TAS conditions! (And when I say that, I mean completing the Frontier isn't hard. Beating it optimally still is of course.
Having TAS'd the Battle Pike, Battle Pyramid, and Battle Factory myself... I can say that you couldn't be more wrong about the "not hard at all" statement. The RNG works a bit differently in the Battle Frontier. Your first turn manipulation has to be done before the battle starts and in the case of the Battle Factory, everything has to be done in advance...
Link to video
Wow. Sorry, I didn't mean to insult your or other people's efforts, and I think you can tell from my post count I don't really know what I'm talking about, so please forgive me. I had just assumed that you would be able to manipulate crits and misses everywhere like you can in the main game. How do you optimise battles when the RNG doesn't move? Do you have to go through every possible RNG seed at the beginning of the seven battles to see which one is most favourable?
This would now be a somewhat weird-looking TAS, because frontier stuff (or at least the battle factory, from what i've seen) would, to somebody who didn't understand the RNG differences (like me until about half an hour ago), look really un-optimised compared to the first half of the TAS, in fact I've watched GoddessMaria's TAS and at times it looks like a human playing, and even like an idiot playing (eg no human would ever use Scary Face if they were trying to go as fast as possible, especially when the user would still be slower afterwards).
I found most of the move choices impossible to understand, but I do realise it's because you needed those moves to shift the RNG where you wanted it to go. The result is a very unusual run - really hard to understand the player's choices even if you are familiar with the game, but without using glitches. This looks like a great technical achievement, but honestly I wouldn't be able to tell even if it was really suboptimal. And I think I found it more interesting that you weren't able to just manipulate Horn Drill and Quick Claw to work every time, as then the run would have got really boring.
The battle frontier is no joke. lol.
Optimizations for the Pyramid is legit too that GoddessMaria also did.
I can imagine this kind of run being worked on by at least 4 peeps by how much luck is involved. lol
I'm not 100% sure if this would go here, but here goes a test run for Emerald main game.
Link to video
VBM: Test Run
There were a few mistakes made throughout the run which will be fixed. Those mistakes being the following:
- In Route 110, I should've battled the PokéFan trainers separately for 2 single battles instead of at one time via Double Battle.
- In Mt. Pyre, I should've switched the order of my Party so that Castform was the second in line to avoid the extra level ups for Abra and to make the battles go a lot easier.
- In certain buildings and caves (namely Sky Tower), running is faster than biking into the entrance/exit.
- Catching Marill in Route 104 is faster than catching both Poochyena and Tentacool since it gets Strength, Rock Smash, Dive and Waterfall. With that knowledge, I should also catch either a Taillow or Swablu for Flying due to having a shorter cry than Tropius.
Do you think that a main game run would actually be worth pursuing? Also the possible chances of this even being accepted is uncertain. I want to know your opinions.
Do you think that a main game run would actually be worth pursuing? Also the possible chances of this even being accepted is uncertain. I want to know your opinions.
Well, imo:
Patashu wrote:
Stevmay09 wrote:
Well that's pretty good. It would be good to use a different version for the other run. Would this run have been slower with leaf green?
Fire Red and Leaf Green are equally fast for any%. Not in the 'Well, they're basically the same game' sense, in the any% path there are literally no differences you care about, and IIRC cries don't take different amounts of time like they did in RBY.
As long as the above isn't the case (which I'm sure isn't) then it should be acceptable. Although you better ask a judge for opinions just to be safe.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
Emerald has a lot of expanded content compared to Ruby and Sapphire. This testrun is over 1.5 times as long as the published Ruby run, which is a much larger difference than I expected.
I'd say a full Emerald run would be acceptable on the site.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
This looks OK. I have more than a few comments:
- The Battle Animation should be turned off before the first tutorial battle with Poochyena.
- Taking damage (such as Pound) is faster than taking a stat down move (such as Leer). If you can spare some damage, it is better to do so. This applies mostly in the beginning of the game.
- When getting the Running Shoes, talk to Mom from the left side, not in front.
- If you get Mudkip into Torrent range (CurHP<=(1/3)*MaxHP), Mudkip would have a better time with Nosepass.
- The guy who has his package stolen, I think it is faster to go one square below him instead of to the left of him.
- Mr. Briney's hut: Walk in front of his path (up when Peeko passes) to cut him off. This saves time.
- After Meteor Falls: Don't jump the last two of the four jumps; go around the left side.
- Since there is the Hiker to fight in Rusturf Tunnel now, don't go through there on the way to Mt. Chimney. From Meteor Falls, go back the way you came (back through Fallarbor Town). To get Strength, wait until you get Fly, then fly to Rusturf City and get it then.
- Battle against Norman is rather long.
- Overworld Trainer movement manipulation should be done better.
- After using Surf for the first time, east of Mauville: fight the Youngster first, and don't bike over the ledge.
- Winona's gym, trainer with Tropius: Razor Leaf is a 95% move. It can miss.
- Is it possible to get other Pokemon not to use Protect when you try attacking it? (such as Winona's Pelipper).
- Magma Hideout: Don't fly to Slateport beforehand to set the teleport point. Just go to Magma Hideout directly, and fly to Slateport when you are done.
- Mossdeep City: Same here. Don't set the teleport point here.
- After Kyogre's release: It might be faster to go directly to Sootopolis. After talking to Wallace, go back underwater, and use the bike-on-water glitch on the way to Pacifidlog Town. Fly to itself (Pacifidlog Town), then surf normally to Sky Pillar. I haven't tested so there may be some variation of this that is faster. Or maybe not.
- After flying to Pacifidlog Town: After going one step down and one step right, surf on the water which is one square down, instead of walking all the way to the right.
- I don't think you need two X attack against Phoebe. If you can OHKO them all without critical hit with two X attack, then you can OHKO them all with critical hit with no X attack. Using X attack in this case only saves time if it is done once, and it saves 4 or more critical hit messages.
- It would be a good idea to have a move that OHKO's Glacia's first few Pokemon to prevent Hail. Doesn't Earthquake do this?
- I see you teach Facade just to relearn Earthquake for the PP. Don't do that. Just get more PP-restoring items in the first place.
- Wallace's Gyarados: Hyper Beam is a 90% move. It can miss.
Certainly I think that Pokemon Emerald is a different-enough game that it would be accepted. I look forward to an improved version.
To answer and respond to some of the comments:
For FractalFusion:
- I spoke to Mom from the front with the thought process of that being faster by not having the sprite turn around when spoken to.
- I spoke to the Devon Corp. NPC that gets his goods stolen in that manner for the same reason as above. Both instances will be rectified in the final.
- I wasn't sure exactly how to make a properly clean OW manipulation. The main tricky ones were the trainers by the Rusturf Tunnel entrance (Rustboro side) along with the Cool Trainers from Route 121 and Aroma Lady in Route 103.
- I tried to get it to miss, but it seemed to always hit...
- The only other instance when that seems to be possible is when at low enough health where the AI knows that it will be able to KO the player's Pokémon. That one time when it didn't happen was against Drake, though it was unfortunate due to not having the chance to restore Blizzard with Max Ether nor use an X-Attack...
- At that point with Glacia after Phoebe, Earthquake was at 2 PP left. Glalie's Light Screen manipulation could be an option, but I still need a turn to burn for the X-Attack which still won't deal with the other Pokémon.
- As explained above, Hyper Beam didn't want to miss and it would've cost me a bit more so healing with the last Hyper Potion to take the hit. Though the idea of using Blizzard for the Freeze was tempting.
To Mothrayas:
The test run had a bit my hard trying efforts, although there were a few times where I had let certain things go by due to it being a test and seeing what could be done. To test different ideas that come to mind. The main reason for even trying at a run for the game is mostly to test myself to see if I really could handle something like this... and on my own no less...!
---
I shall frequently post WIPs to see where it stands before proceeding onwards.
In Route 110, I should've battled the PokéFan trainers separately for 2 single battles instead of at one time via Double Battle.
How could two single battles be faster than one double battle? After all, in a double battle, you only need one slightly longer introduction of both trainers at the same time.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
To N. Harmonik:
Normally it would be a bit faster when you have an attack that hits both of the opposing Pokémon, but not the case early game and that Double Battle in general has 2 Plusle and Minun which both have the habit of using Helping Hand thus taking up more time than saving it.
-----
To Toothache:
The instances when the text was slowed were for manipulation purposes.
Since I think this hasn't been mentioned and it's a little thing I noticed in GoddessMaria's testrun I'll just say here.
When you enter on BRENDAN's house, it's faster if you enter on his room, then leave it inmediately and try to exit the house. Then you'll find Brendan entering, and when he finishes talking to you, he will go upstairs.
Since I think this hasn't been mentioned and it's a little thing I noticed in GoddessMaria's testrun I'll just say here.
When you enter on BRENDAN's house, it's faster if you enter on his room, then leave it inmediately and try to exit the house. Then you'll find Brendan entering, and when he finishes talking to you, he will go upstairs.
Wow! I hadn't a clue that you could even do that at all! This will indeed save quite a bit of time, so thank you very kindly for finding that Mkdasher!
Since I think this hasn't been mentioned and it's a little thing I noticed in GoddessMaria's testrun I'll just say here.
When you enter on BRENDAN's house, it's faster if you enter on his room, then leave it inmediately and try to exit the house. Then you'll find Brendan entering, and when he finishes talking to you, he will go upstairs.
Wow! I hadn't a clue that you could even do that at all! This will indeed save quite a bit of time, so thank you very kindly for finding that Mkdasher!
What about when May's the NPC? Does this occur in Ruby/Sapphire too?
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
