One quick correction. That clip I posted for comparisons is Aria of Sorrow, not Dawn of Sorrow.
EDIT 1: Reading more of the draft, I have a suggestion for introducing terminology. You can use it to emphasize the different mindsets of TASers and speedrunners. While speedrunners emphasize skill, TASers emphasize creativity. Thus instead of "run", we use "movie", instead of "player", we use "author", instead of "running" or "playing" we use "writing" or "creating".
arkiandruski: I don't see where it says Dawn of Sorrow actually... In the table it's correct at least.
Yes, the draft will point out both that we're not competing with speedrunners but that TASes are hard work too... Do we really never talk about "runners" in here? I guess I can see that "creating", "author" etc. is more fitting and helps to prevent the illusion forming that it's a real-time run where somebody is playing the game. That's probably why the distinctions have been emphasized too. Okay I'll make sure to make at least some mention of this or start using these terms instead, why not.
Why would you say "to write a TAS" though? I don't see the writing metaphor. Also, is it officially "speedrun" instead of "speed run"?
thatguy: Ah yes I can see why you'd bring up such a game. I will definitely consider using it to accompany the section where different types of tricks are introduced alongside other clips. You have a nice summary of what it might offer and yeah it's a very well known and easy-to-understand game.
And hope to see more of you on the forums! ;)
The pace this thing is moving is probably not going to reach more than 2 nights per week so I'll just post on this thread again when significant changes have been made because I know some people may want to keep following it, for which I'm happy by the way! :D
My understanding of TASing is that it's more comparable to writing a book than playing a game, because of all the revisions you make in the form of re-records. Also note that the sites names the run creators in the same manner ("authors" instead of "players.")
I just call it creation. To create a TAS.
Haven't used the term "write" there, because it too much points towards book-like pursuits, and while both are creative pursuits, involving rules, goals, and designing, you wouldn't call painting, which is also a creative work, by "to write a painting".
Then again, I am not opposed to using the word "playing" in this context. After all, when TASVideos was young, I intentionally emphasized in my propaga^H^H^H^H^H^H^HFAQ materials, how TAS-players are really playing the game normally, with tools that enable them to play at high precision, to dispel the myth that TASing involves video editing, hacking the games, or is fake and cheating.
Today, I even like to say that TASing is simply just regular speedrunning, except with arbitrary segmentation. There is a really narrow line between those two. I consider segmented speedruns as TASes (when speaking to people already familiar with both concepts).
True, there are more tools that are widespread today, such as RAM watching and robots, but using robots (scripts) is not new in RTA speedrun communities either.
Perhaps the most fundamental difference arises from our site rules: All TASes must be reproducable in the form of an input stream that can be fed to the unmodified game, possibly running under an emulator to accomplish it.
But it's not like I haven't broken that rule either. And, it's not like RTAs have not been produced that also provide an input file.
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^H was used here for epanorthosis. Unfamiliar, too young to remember? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backspace#.5EH may help.
My understanding of TASing is that it's more comparable to writing a book than playing a game, because of all the revisions you make in the form of re-records. Also note that the sites names the run creators in the same manner ("authors" instead of "players.")
All TASes have a defined ceiling where perfection is reached. A book however can never be perfect. Even though it may be judged as perfection by many.
All TASes have a defined ceiling where perfection is reached.
No they do not.
Who is to say which one of these two TAS snippets is closer to perfection, for example?
And there is an near-infinite number of variations.
I've always seen TASing as either a creative endeavor or a form of puzzle solving, maybe more toward the latter. You have a specific thing you want the game to do and you're looking for the best way to get that done.
But it's an open ended puzzle which leads to the myriad solutions people may find.
All TASes have a defined ceiling where perfection is reached.
No they do not.
Who is to say which one of these two TAS snippets is closer to perfection, for example?
And there is an near-infinite number of variations.
These are aesthetic choices. I would see TASing more like a big exam. No one ever gets full marks, but it doesn't mean perfection can't be achieved. However the correct answer for any given question can be worded, or hand written in many different ways.
This comparison video of two SMB TASes gave me an idea... I'm going to write in having the TAS and AndrewG's run play side by side for the documentary in the section where the two types of speedrunning are compared.
This comparison video of two SMB TASes gave me an idea... I'm going to write in having the TAS and AndrewG's run play side by side for the documentary in the section where the two types of speedrunning are compared.
That's a really great idea! You could even do it as one of those comparison videos where there's a counter keeping track of the frame difference; it's quite possible that such a video is already on youtube somewhere.
Also raising a fairly pedantic point - in your script it says that the TAS of SMB is only about 1.5 seconds faster than andrewg's time. This is partly due to the different timing methods of SDA and tasvideos. Iirc the "real" difference is actually about four seconds - I'll see if I can verify that.
EDIT: I've checked Youtube with every search phrase I can think of and there isn't a comparison video. Wikipedia (that incredibly reliable source) has confirmed that I was right about the timing differences, but it's probably worth double-checking. Andrewg probably knows.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6438
Location: The land down under.
Last Version (CoolMatty)
This is a form of comparison between the RTA and the TAS
I know it's not really what you're looking for but it's a form.
Edit: Rendering out a newer version of this RTA and TAS comparison so that Andrew has his newer run shown instead.
EDIT 2: Here's a new version:
Link to video
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
You should be showing the console verified version of the TAS, because of the timing differences. NES emulators emulate at 60fps, but NTSC plays at 59.94fps
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6438
Location: The land down under.
Mitjitsu wrote:
You should be showing the console verified version of the TAS, because of the timing differences. NES emulators emulate at 60fps, but NTSC plays at 59.94fps
Well I wish there was an actual recording of it. Rather than a camera.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
How do TASers find the tricks they’re searching for? How do they know there’s still frames left to
shave off the time at the finish? Well, they don’t! They just have to try things out.
There are some general tricks and rules that TASers can use to help them find the best path. Glitches tend to be more random and a bit harder to find, but there's still some overlap between games. The rules for what makes optimal movement are well documented, and memory addresses are often a great help for discovering stuff.
Good job Spikestuff! This is a neat video that emphasises many of the differences between the two sorts of speedrun:
- Most of the time the TAS saves over the RTA is in the execution of superhuman tricks (specifically, the flagpole glitch).
- The TAS also does many entertaining things like walking backwards, walking through walls and that random walljumping bit while waiting for the bullet bill. These don't affect the completion time due to SMB's shitty frame rule, but the TASer puts them in just because he can.
- The true time difference is clearly much larger than one second, illustrating the difference in timing conventions.
So I have to say I'm undergoing my basically annual Winter time tiredness. The first thing it compromises is creative thinking. And so I'm looking at the script today for instance but I don't feel like I can grasp what I'm doing, the whole, like when I first started writing the drafts. I basically wrote the second draft on 1-2 goes I think. Now I can make little changes and additions but it feels aimless.
I usually come start coming about in April... No guarantees how fast this will move along for a while now. Well, it has no deadline either.
-yes, AndrewG might improve the time still... ignore the factual side of the draft, that will be checked last.
Svimmer would you like help doing this? I would happily offer my services as I don't know how to TAS but am very interested in contributing to the site and also very interested in this project - as interested as I am in the progress of any TAS (maybe except TTYD). I feel like when I'm showing other people TASes they don't know what they're watching, and I sometimes struggle to explain. They are also sometimes disappointed when they realise the game isn't being played in real time. Well, this would help me personally if nothing else. I also feel like it would help to spread awareness of TASing and tasvideos.org, as I still see "f***ing cheaters" and similar stuff in the comments of every Youtube encode.
However, this video was your vision. I could quite understand you not wanting me to muscle in. In that case I look forward patiently to the end product.
thatguy: Sorry for the late reply (I don't get notifications for some reason). Yes I'm sure you could be of help! I'm going to make a proper return to this project later at which point we can get coordinated. Right now I wouldn't know what to say.
thatguy: Sorry for the late reply (I don't get notifications for some reason). Yes I'm sure you could be of help! I'm going to make a proper return to this project later at which point we can get coordinated. Right now I wouldn't know what to say.
Great :) Take your time if you have irl stuff to be getting on with - the best things are worth waiting for!
Community input on this please!
The script has a part where I'm trying to outline a typical start to finish process for a TAS. Anything that I might be missing or misrepresenting? Currently it's like this:
No one way of doing it, here’s a typical procedure a TASer might follow.
Choosing a game. Usually one you already know and have played.
Obtaining the necessary tools.
Finding key memory locations to be able to monitor changes in RNG, player position etc.
Testing. A long phase. Establishing what the game actually requires to reach completion. Are there any exploits or skips available?
Establishing the overall best route for reaching all unavoidable goals. Often involves extensive mapping and testing.
Finding the most streamlined ways of moving from place to place.
Are there lag frames? How to reduce lag.
Finally creating an optimized run which also uses opportunities for increasing the movie's esthetic and entertainment value. Before this, the TASer may have sent in a video of his Work In Progress for evaluation by other TASers.
Submitting the movie file to TASVideos alongside all the pertinent and interesting information that was found during creating the TAS.
Creating a resource pages entry for the game is not a bad idea either.
That looks pretty good. Here's my idea for how I tackle different games.
1. Choosing a game. Familiarity and interest are very important. I also like to think about what would look good. Is the action fast? Are there sections that require you to use really impressive and difficult strategies?
2. Doing research. At this point I haven't even toiuched the game yet beyond having played through it normally. Resources you can use here are speeruns that have already been made (either real time or TAS), game walkthroughs, or lists of glitches and bugs you can find online.
3. Attempt to find memory addresses. Speed, X and Y position, and boss HP are the mostly important values. Other games have other special values that help (suubpixel position, for example)
4. Make a test run. This is basically a proof of concept. The goal here is to not make a finished run, but to try things and see if they can work out. This is when WIPs begin to be posted. In my experience, the first version you make of a run is never the final version, so trying to make it the final version is a waste of time. This is still a learning phase. You just got done with theory. Now is time for prac app.
5. Make revisions to the test run. This is where you tweak and start saving frames. Search for optimal paths, find movement techniques, etc.
Usually step 4 and 5 are happening around the same time, with 4 being a few stages ahead of five. Community input is important at this point, as it will focus you and give you ideas of things you may have missed.
6. Work on the final run. At this point you start solidifying your stylistic choices as well. When we know what's fastest, we now need to decide what's most entertaining within that frame work.
7. Post final WIP. Sometimes after a certain point members will stop posting WIPs so the final project is a surprise. When I did my Gunstar Heroes run, I only showed WIPs to a select few members that I thought were most helpful in the thread after I felt I had a good grasp of the game.
8. Decide that you have a finished project. Sometimes this step never happens.
9. Submit. Wait for the judges and community to rule on your work.
That looks pretty good. Here's my idea for how I tackle different games.
1. Choosing a game. Familiarity and interest are very important. I also like to think about what would look good. Is the action fast? Are there sections that require you to use really impressive and difficult strategies?
2. Doing research. At this point I haven't even toiuched the game yet beyond having played through it normally. Resources you can use here are speeruns that have already been made (either real time or TAS), game walkthroughs, or lists of glitches and bugs you can find online.
3. Attempt to find memory addresses. Speed, X and Y position, and boss HP are the mostly important values. Other games have other special values that help (suubpixel position, for example)
4. Make a test run. This is basically a proof of concept. The goal here is to not make a finished run, but to try things and see if they can work out. This is when WIPs begin to be posted. In my experience, the first version you make of a run is never the final version, so trying to make it the final version is a waste of time. This is still a learning phase. You just got done with theory. Now is time for prac app.
5. Make revisions to the test run. This is where you tweak and start saving frames. Search for optimal paths, find movement techniques, etc.
Usually step 4 and 5 are happening around the same time, with 4 being a few stages ahead of five. Community input is important at this point, as it will focus you and give you ideas of things you may have missed.
6. Work on the final run. At this point you start solidifying your stylistic choices as well. When we know what's fastest, we now need to decide what's most entertaining within that frame work.
7. Post final WIP. Sometimes after a certain point members will stop posting WIPs so the final project is a surprise. When I did my Gunstar Heroes run, I only showed WIPs to a select few members that I thought were most helpful in the thread after I felt I had a good grasp of the game.
8. Decide that you have a finished project. Sometimes this step never happens.
9. Submit. Wait for the judges and community to rule on your work.
Nice list, it's really close to what I did for my few TASes.
I'll add a personal point that can happen around n°2 on this list: playing the game at least once in real time, but recording it in a movie file (to be able to analyse anything you see or find). And when doing that playthrough, whenever you can, try to do extremely silly things in hopes of finding some glitches :D (there are times when you can feel that there are "glitch possibilities"). It's also a good way to remember about some details if you didn't play the game recently.
And there is an near-infinite number of variations.
