I wouldn't mind having a slightly less optimal TAS using superswims. I realize how hard it is to optimize and i also agree that any TAS at all is better than none as long as it's somewhat optimal. I don't care if it could be one or two minutes faster when fully optimized.
I agree with the majority that the run should just be completed without completely optimizing superswims. It wouldn't be fair to the runner to have to test every possible combination of superswim angles as well as their patience, and still never knowing if the superswim is completely optimized. The important thing now is to finish at least the first iteration of a run. In the future, when tools improve, perhaps it will be a lot easier to optimize the superswims (for example, with some new powerful bot).
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
Considering I "learned" lua just for that script, a bot that would, idk, actually calculate the angles based on camera or direction faced would be nice.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Ultimately it's the runner's choice. If the TAS is optimal, I'll vote yes. But please realize how much longer the beginning of the game is if you don't use superswims at all. If people have to skip through sections, is it really completely entertaining?
I actually would vote no if superswims would be excluded. That would make the run a lot less fun, which is the primary goal of tasvideos and it would prolong it by hours.
Also the goal of any% is to finish the game as fast as possible. If you don't superswim that isn't even remotely as fast as possible and a TAS might actually end up slower than current real time runs.
I don't see a problem with having superswims that are slightly suboptimal. If it's not reasonably possible to optimize them and still get the tas done, then the runner should just not do it. Better to have a run that has slightly suboptimal sueperswims than no run at all.
Those superswims can always be improved in a later run by another taser.
Ultimately it's the runner's choice. If the TAS is optimal, I'll vote yes. But please realize how much longer the beginning of the game is if you don't use superswims at all. If people have to skip through sections, is it really completely entertaining?
I actually would vote no if superswims would be excluded. That would make the run a lot less fun, which is the primary goal of tasvideos and it would prolong it by hours.
Also the goal of any% is to finish the game as fast as possible. If you don't superswim that isn't even remotely as fast as possible and a TAS might actually end up slower than current real time runs.
I don't see a problem with having superswims that are slightly suboptimal. If it's not reanoably possible to optimize them and still get the tas done, then the runner should just not do it. Better to have a run that has slightly suboptimal sueprswims than no run at all.
Those superswims can always be improved in a later run by another taser.
Totally agree. With a long complicated analog stick 3D game you'll never manage to be totally optimal anyway. No reason to torture yourself trying to be frame perfect in ever superswim. Get a very high speed, angle it correctly, good shit.
Ultimately it's the runner's choice. If the TAS is optimal, I'll vote yes. But please realize how much longer the beginning of the game is if you don't use superswims at all. If people have to skip through sections, is it really completely entertaining?
I actually would vote no if superswims would be excluded. That would make the run a lot less fun, which is the primary goal of tasvideos and it would prolong it by hours.
Also the goal of any% is to finish the game as fast as possible. If you don't superswim that isn't even remotely as fast as possible and a TAS might actually end up slower than current real time runs.
I don't see a problem with having superswims that are slightly suboptimal. If it's not reanoably possible to optimize them and still get the tas done, then the runner should just not do it. Better to have a run that has slightly suboptimal sueprswims than no run at all.
Those superswims can always be improved in a later run by another taser.
Totally agree. With a long complicated analog stick 3D game you'll never manage to be totally optimal anyway. No reason to torture yourself trying to be frame perfect in ever superswim. Get a very high speed, angle it correctly, good shit.
These guys have the idea. This is a 4+ hour game (in RTA), losing a few seconds here and there to slightly suboptimal strats isn't going to be a dealbreaker. I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH rather someone actually start and finish a run of this game than have it forever in limbo while we wait for someone to program a "superswim bot".
That said, don't do a run without superswims. That'd be incredibly boring.
HOWEVER, I think this whole "Do it without superswims" discussion got started because we wanted the runner to have a chance at TASing the game without worrying about those optimizations, as in doing dungeon TASes or something similar.
Well dungeon TASes would be a good way to practice.
On the other hand, if you don't get really anal about superswims, you'll end up in a dungeon pretty quickly anyway.
I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH rather someone actually start and finish a run of this game than have it forever in limbo while we wait for someone to program a "superswim bot".
That reminds me. There's something I've been curious about in regards to frames spent superswimming vs. velocity. As far as I know, that graph represents the velocity while superswimming. But what about the velocity after superswimming (e.g. a frame or so)? Is it more or less the same? Is it easier to model?
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
gngbng, lets say you release at frame 100. The speed on that graph would show one thing, but the actual speed you would have after a frame or two would be frame 102 iirc. If I decided to get off my lazy ass I could write a script to make a graph for that, but effort...
Also, speed decreases by 2 every frame.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Excuse the VERY long hiatus. I've been concentrating on other games. I am probably back(no guarantee that I won't lose motivation again), and have been practicing TASing again on The Wind Waker. Again, sorry for the terribly long hiatus. I've also made my own messy script using Abahbob's lua joystick files.
I also found something interesting in the Lua code. It's the emu.pause() function. Seems to really come in handy. Anyways, I'll hopefully post some WIPs that are probably gonna be terrible. Seeing I have to do some work on the C-Stick while Superswimming. It's not gonna be an impressive WIP. But it's just the fact this game is INCREDIBLY hard to optimize Superswims.
I rarely use whitespaces(due to me being lazy), but anyway. Here is the script that seems to be a little bit easier for me to handle.
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
Just TASed about 1000 frames today. Working on updating the route. Officially back on this? No. But I want to get a bit further and show off what the game has. Maybe finish, idfk.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Dumb question because I'm just coming into this conversation. Is that the maximum angle that will work with the super swim? 108 degrees?
Also that graph for the super swim velocity, is that constructed from the 108 degree super swim, or from the 180 one? To my eye it looks like the graph of something like: bx + x*sin(x^2)/c (Try graphing it with b = 1 and c = 3).
But there's also a very slight decay in the speed gain, which might actually be from accumulated floating point error or something. So it's hard to model.
I *think* that the sin(x^2) term actually comes from the waves. You move farther when you move from the bottom of a wave to the top of a wave, and that might actually show up in your speed. However, this is just a naive guess. Is there a place in wind waker with completely still water that you are able to swim in? If so, it might wind up becoming much easier to find the curve.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
The exact angle is tough to get, because it is dependent on the camera and this script doesn't use it from a straight top down angle. From what I've noticed, superswims work from 136 degree to 224 degree changes. I don't believe there is any fluctuation in the speed from the waves, since they actually aren't counted by the speed address I use. The address I use is more of a potential speed, if you are rolling into a wall and not moving, it could say you are moving 26 units/frame. I'm pretty sure the issue for calculating speed is the swimming animation. If you watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUmYeOgY1Fw around 17 minutes, you can see a superswim from the front and you'll be able to see that it seems like the animation actually takes a different amount of time at various times.
The decay from the graph most likely is a result of having less air. It seems as though the less air you have, the less speed you have. Whenever Link starts gulping for air and the meter turns red, speed decreases quite a bit. It is important to not that this doesn't affect you if you are already blasting off at high speeds, only when you are gaining speed. I wish I still had the graph of the first superswim in the run. As soon as I get the re-air at Outset, the speed jumps up several hundred units/frame.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Sadly whenever I try to complete the superswim to be as perfect as possible, It seems it doesn't even feel like it's perfect, It feels like it could be 100x better.. I'm only holding on by a thin line before I literally go nuts.. >_> Also that superswim script I made could be better as well, I guess. I need to configure and play around with it more.
Anyways, before you guys even ask, the TAS is going very poorly due to me being damn lazy and unmotivated.. :(
Sadly whenever I try to complete the superswim to be as perfect as possible, It seems it doesn't even feel like it's perfect, It feels like it could be 100x better.. I'm only holding on by a thin line before I literally go nuts.. >_> Also that superswim script I made could be better as well, I guess. I need to configure and play around with it more.
Anyways, before you guys even ask, the TAS is going very poorly due to me being damn lazy and unmotivated.. :(
abahbob started TASing dis again, maybe you should collab
You should not try to optimize the superswims to the extreme in the first TAS of this game. Just do them as fast as you can without losing your sanity, no one will mind if they're not perfect. Also, I highly doubt that this site will reject a run with known improvements in such a complicated and tedious thing as superswims.
As an alternative, you could also do a really unoptimized testrun. With a finished product to compare, motivating yourself would be a lot easier.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
Link to video
short, but the hover is going to be a bitch and take a while.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
So what is that getting eaten by plants shenanigans all about?
He's about to do a zombie hover (Delivery Bag Skip) which requires you to die.
EDIT: Oh right, I forgot TAS can zombie hover to get deku leaf and thought we were in a different part of the game :) Lol
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
Wow, I got the hover today, only a thousand or so re-records! Deku leaf get!
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
