Post by MUGG

Posted: 12/9/2012 7:30 PM

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negative_seven

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zk547 wrote:

There's also the question of whether the run should be done on the English version or the Japanese version. Though right now, I'm thinking the Japanese version because most of the bosses have lower hp.

I was considering it too. Also a lot of things are cheaper and quicker. But the normal enemies have a lot more health in the JP version, so if the route encounters a lot of those, we'd be better off using the english version. But I agree that the japanese version should be better.

Posted: 12/9/2012 7:42 PM

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jdaster64

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Joined: 12/1/2012
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Location: New Donk City

I also have enemy levels (at least for US version) and multipliers for all attacks that both the enemies and Bros. use, as well as a list of the level-up values for all the Bros. (the bonus wheel is dependent on how many times you upgraded it and/or how much bonus you got, so I didn't bother trying to figure it out). I would presume most of that is the same in the Japan version, as well, with the possible exception of levels. There's a lot of calculations that go missed in the entire M&L series, in short; I've only seen a handful of places where anyone tried to figure out how damage is actually calculated. I know from experience that, again, at least in the US version, X/Y position RAM addresses vary from room to room.

Posted: 12/9/2012 8:26 PM

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jlun2

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TehSeven wrote:

I was considering it too. Also a lot of things are cheaper and quicker.

There's a money dupe glitch for this game. So cash is not much of a concern.

jdaster64 wrote:

I also have enemy levels (at least for US version) and multipliers for all attacks that both the enemies and Bros. use, as well as a list of the level-up values for all the Bros. (the bonus wheel is dependent on how many times you upgraded it and/or how much bonus you got, so I didn't bother trying to figure it out). I would presume most of that is the same in the Japan version, as well, with the possible exception of levels.

If you don't share it, then that information for future TASer's is as good as if it never existed. :P

TehSeven wrote:

Does anyone have any useful RAM adresses, though?

Since each bro.s stats are of a different address, it'll be much better to make a lua script to display them all at once rather than use RAM watch (which probably won't even fit them all without scrolling).

TehSeven wrote:

But the normal enemies have a lot more health in the JP version, so if the route encounters a lot of those, we'd be better off using the english version.

I believe all enemy encounters aren't needed, only the bosses. I think

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 12/9/2012 8:36 PM

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jdaster64

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https://dl.dropbox.com/u/64507723/mlpit_stats_japan.xlsx Quick-and-dirty rip of the stats straight from the Japanese ROM, including levels and item drops/frequencies. So basically, the damage done by an attack is calculated as follows: Attack Constant * Attacker Level * Attacker POW / Defender DEF. This is true regardless of who's attacking whom. A list of these attack-constants and the item values for the file above can be found here; the constants might be different in the J version, but they should be reliable enough. EDIT: Oh, and that work-in-progress FAQ. Still has some really useful info, IMO: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/64507723/mlpit_wip_faq_usonly.txt

Posted: 12/9/2012 8:40 PM

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zk547

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Joined: 1/13/2012
Posts: 131

But the normal enemies have a lot more health in the JP version, so if the route encounters a lot of those, we'd be better off using the english version. But I agree that the japanese version should be better.

The route for this game doesn't have a lot of normal enemy battles. The only ones that are encountered are the ones where you learn to use new action commands (except for maybe one or two in Princess Shroob's castle, if we're going for Supreme Slacks and maybe in Yoob's belly if we're leveling up for speed like in the speedrun, which should be unnecessary in a TAS). Even so, the difference isn't as big as the bosses.

Currently Working on: Metal Slug X - Mission 1 (On hold)

Posted: 12/10/2012 5:08 PM

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negative_seven

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jlun2 wrote:

There's a money dupe glitch for this game. So cash is not much of a concern.

But the money dupe glitch takes more time than just buying something that is cheaper. And if you say it's just a few frames, then we might as well leave out toad boosts.

jdasher64 wrote:

So basically, the damage done by an attack is calculated as follows: Attack Constant * Attacker Level * Attacker POW / Defender DEF. This is true regardless of who's attacking whom.

Times 2 if lucky? ... I don't wanna waste time :)

Posted: 12/10/2012 5:17 PM

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jdaster64

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I want to say so; it's been a while since I played. It was a round number, either 1.5 or 2.

Posted: 12/10/2012 5:33 PM

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jlun2

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TehSeven wrote:

But the money dupe glitch takes more time than just buying something that is cheaper. And if you say it's just a few frames, then we might as well leave out toad boosts.

What's toad boost and what other ways to obtain money other than from enemies (which I thought was agreed to skip) and blocks (which don't really give enough fast)?

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 12/11/2012 6:30 AM

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zk547

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Joined: 1/13/2012
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What's toad boost and what other ways to obtain money other than from enemies (which I thought was agreed to skip) and blocks (which don't really give enough fast)?

Toad boosting is when you jump into a toad in a certain way that you get a slight speed boost. you can see it being done in light blue yoshi's test run of the very first part and in the tas in the previous page. As for the money, you can just pick up a whole bunch of green shells along the way (there's plently item blocks that have them where you don't have to go out of your way at all). If we're not going to visit the shop in Peach's castle at all, we'll keep them until Monty Mart and do the money glitch there. By then, you should have enough money from bosses to buy one expensive item and then sell it right back. It would be much faster than defeating enemies, hitting 100-coin blocks, or hitting 500-coin blocks. Doing the glitch and buying the more expensive items would make the boss battles go faster than not doing it and buying cheaper items.

Currently Working on: Metal Slug X - Mission 1 (On hold)

Posted: 7/7/2013 11:32 PM

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MUGG

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Joined: 5/15/2007
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Location: Germany

I feel like I want to glitch hunt in this game but I don't know if or how much time I will spend on this game in the future... Anyway, I'd like to note down some glitches found on youtube. Seeing as how I tend to have the most luck at breaking games by expanding on glitches... Note, some glitches work only on certain versions of the game. ---------- Baby Mario graphical glitch in Yoshi island place (idk the name) The player isn't sure how to do this but: "Make the adults carry the babies and stand in front of the fire. Press the X button. Go onto the trampoline and drink the water up there. Then come down then it happens. I'm not certain though." Found by GamerFlipBoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvHcrYovf9w ---------- Selling glitch Very useful glitch. When you sell the last of one item, you can sell the upcoming item for the same price - i.e. sell a ton of one expensive item and get rich. Found by Anwonu. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0wbpAXmN_Q ---------- Seperation glitch in Gritzy Caves Doesn't work on EU version. Found supposedly by Kyle Packey 2 days after game launch. ---------- Skipping extinguishing the fires in Yoshi island place Found by Anwonu and me independently http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urcAZtdoaLU ---------- Out of bounds somewhere in beginning.. I tried this once and didn't get it to work (so it doesn't work on EU) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3n-kMAh6W8 Also, I have seen a video of one of the rooms before this, where someone clipped out of bounds by jumping at the wall/bushes in a certain way. The video vanished and I never got it to work ... ---------- There are random glitches that can happen, like getting stuck in a turn forever, or sudden game freezes. That's why I think there's potential for some glitch hunting/investigating. ---------- Baby Luigi zipping up if Baby Mario is on ledge I don't know how this works. Special case in that room? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaNntpvpyCw ---------- Skip in shroob castle Found by Anwonu. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJJp9HYEwGw ---------- Some skip in the shroob castle sewers with the Chain chomps? I don't know if I remember the place correctly... I don't have the video ---------- I also remember there being a glitch that if you do something before something else, you would get stuck ? ---------- You can also go to one place early, where you have to roll up a long staircase before the time runs out. You can make it without learning the roll technique. I don't know what the implications are on that. ---------- Other than this, I'd like to play through the English/Japanese version at the same time sometime, and maybe I can find some interesting differences or a Japanese only glitch...

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Posted: 7/9/2013 12:22 AM

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N._Harmonik

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I seem to recall seeing many of those glitches in the speedrun at Speed Demos Archive.

Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?

Posted: 7/9/2013 12:48 AM

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MUGG

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Bah, game uses dynamical RAM for positioning... Tried editing myself into walls and can only edit the Y pos of one brother, not both at the same time.

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Posted: 7/9/2013 6:43 AM

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Anwonu

Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 15

I talked to MUGG a bit while I was streaming. The Chain Chomp is already skipped when doing the big skip (you skip the whole sewers and the shooting tutorial). So even if there was some kind of glitch to skip him, it's useless, unless some reason appear. The glitch MUGG remembered getting stuck might be this one. Lastly, there's one visual glitch later on that I got once. In Toad Town, after you hit the ! blocks with the adults, change the icons and get ready to do the ball before the gates start to open. The adults' sprites should flicker between the normal and the "ready to roll" sprites, or something like that. Just for fun =p If anyone needs a route for some reason, I can write one. I still have pretty much everything in my head. Might be useful for those who don't remember the whole game well and don't want to play all over again. (I guess we could use the SDA KB for these things as well..) Also, can anyone confirm me something? In US version, when getting bonus points on a stat chosen multiple times, can you get 2 every time, or it's really impossible?

Posted: 7/11/2013 12:08 PM

Post subject: fixed explanations, added video

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MUGG

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I found a glitch where, when Mario or Luigi hit a sunshine block to make a light block appear in a cave where the babies travel, if they hit it and immediately fall down and touch spikes, they can briefly travel on the spikes and jump, but it seems useless in this particular place (Baby bowser's Castle). When the babies stand on the spikes briefly, you can gain control over the adults and read the sign in front of the cave and then you can walk around with the text box still active. If - after doing that - the babies leave the cave, the camera will be locked in place. Reuniting with the adults will not fix it but throwing the babies will fix the camera. When walking around with the textbox, you cannot hit ?-blocks. This might be useful because it seems everything that's offscreen isn't there i.e. maybe we can unload locked doors or something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q8HEfywkdU EDIT: It looks like if you clear the textbox when the babies are being sent up from the spikes, you gain control over them again similarly to the TTYD "Fish glitch". Thus it should be possible to skip across the gap from entrance to exit. EDIT: Wtf... I can jump around infinitely but I'm stuck in the "damaged mode"...

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Posted: 7/12/2013 9:46 AM

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MUGG

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- In the forest at the first floating platform, if the babies land on the springboard at the same frame and you press A at the correct frame to gain control over the adults, the springboard will stop working for as long as you're in the room. - If you navigate the platform back to the beginning and position the babies at the ledge, the adults can walk towards them and fall off so they enter piggyback mode which will be interrupted by "being damaged from spikes". This will result in either the adults being sent back to the beginning, or both the adults and babies being sent back, each at a time. EDIT: This also works without the platform floating. So note, you can "piggyback fall" if Mario approaches the babies, but not vice versa.

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Posted: 7/13/2013 7:06 PM

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Anwonu

Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 15

K, here's something RNG related. Apparently the memory address the flower targets is based on 02060A86 (2 bytes). It seems value 0 always hit a certain enemy, not following the rule below (or folowing differently than I noticed). From my tests, it has a different rule for each kind of formation (# of enemies): -2 enemies: 0 hits the one with highest id? (020CC970 and 020CCEBD shows a number for each enemy) It follows a "4 each enemy": 1, 2, 3 hits one enemy; 4, 5, 6, 7 hits the other; 8, 9, 10, 11 hits the first again; etc. -3 enemies: 0 on middle id? 2 for each: 1 hits 1st enemy; 2, 3 hits another; 4, 5 hits the 3rd; 6, 7 hits the 1st; etc. -4 enemies: 0 on 2nd lowest id? (No relevance between letters and id, I forgot which id is which letter =p) It alternates between 2 enemies each time: 1 hits enemy A, 2 hits B, 3 hits A; 4 C, 5 D, 6 C, 7 D; 8 A, 9 B, 10 A, 11 B; etc. -5 enemies: 0 on 2nd highest? Highest to lowest id: 1, 6, 11, .. on highest; 2, 7, 12, .. on second highest; etc. -6 enemies: 0 on 2nd lowest? (A is lowest id, F is highest) 1 hits A,; 2, 3 C; 4, 5 B; 6, 7 D; 8, 9 C; 10, 11 E; 12, 13 D; 14, 15 F; 16, 17 E; 18, 19 A; 20, 21 F; 22, 23 B; 24, 25 A; etc. ~~Didn't test more than that yet. I'll try doing a script later to see if this is accurate. Or at least helpful.~~ Some of these worked only with lower numbers; the rule changes later (noticed on 6, which changed after 40, and with 3, which I don't know where it doesn't work). 2 enemies were accurate though. Edit: ah, those are for adults. I have yet to test with the babies. Edit2: OK, the babies might be the same as the adults. However, they can target a different enemy if you press their button instead of the adult on a certain frame. My guess is that the frame that gets the number is actually delayed by 1. So the adults get the number 1 frame after you press the button, while babies get 2 frames later. It's a bit of random guess, I'll try doing the script to see how it goes. Edit 3: from what it looks, Mario gets the number 1 frame after the button press, and Luigi, 2 frames. ~~I have no idea about the babies though. If I fix the number, they shoot the same target as adults, so I guess it's a matter of which frame. Welp.~~ 3 frames after button press for Baby Luigi, 4 for Baby Mario. Bleh. Well, of course this wouldn't be as easy as I hoped.. I might try something later, but for now, whatever =p

Posted: 7/15/2013 12:20 AM

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MUGG

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Well as for fireflower/iceflower, I'm just gonna trial-and-error the whole thing and try to optimize it. I would be more interested in how lucky hits work (if you're eligible for a lucky hit, I noticed your next successful hit will be the lucky hit regardless what you do - i.e. you can fail and then still get the lucky hit). Or I wonder if there's an address for NPC movement. Any kind of general RNG address, like it was the case with M&L1.

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Posted: 7/15/2013 1:34 AM

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Anwonu

Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 15

Apparently, it is general. Try fixing that address and check an enemy. The value seems to determine which way they go. Sometimes they'll go the opposite way because of a wall. The ones that follow you, though, will ignore it once they see you. However, I don't know how exactly they determine if they make the next move faster or slower. I haven't found a way to advance the RNG in overworld by yourself without pausing. Enemy movements advances the number. Edit: unrelated: here's a simple script that shows the enemies' HP. Might be useful.

local pos_x = {0x020D0AFC, 0x020D0C06, 0x020D0D04, 0x020D0E08, 0x020D0F0C, 0x020D1010}
local pos_y = {0x020D0AFE, 0x020D0C08, 0x020D0D06, 0x020D0E0A, 0x020D0F0E, 0x020D1012}
local arr_hp = {0x020D1866, 0x020D1B06, 0x020D1DA6, 0x020D2046, 0x020D22E6, 0x020D2586}
local hp

function fn()
	for i = 1,6 do
		hp = memory.readbyte(arr_hp[i])
		if hp > 0 then
			gui.text(memory.readbyte(pos_x[i]), memory.readbyte(pos_y[i])-10, hp)
		end
	end
end
gui.register(fn)

Posted: 7/22/2013 12:19 PM

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ColdStardust

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Joined: 12/29/2012
Posts: 74
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Well, actually, I agreed to help my new friend Noggy Nog on a TAS for this game, though I have NEVER actually played this game before. As I've already played Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga a lot and have made a couple TASes of it, as I play it on my emulator for a couple minutes, I can already see that some of the tricks are very similar, such as the stair jumping trick is pretty much the same. He has already gotten about 8 minutes through it by himself, but I suggested to him that he might be able to jump over the toads, and he tested it, turns out he could, so I think he has to hex it back together after he fixes the toad parts. He is right before the part where Mario and Luigi are stuck out of the time machine (and right before the part where I help ^^). So, if anyone knows any particular huge glitches/shortcuts/tricks, it would be recommended. Two Danish TASers work together for this! (Seriously, he's Danish too!!!!) :) :D :3 ^^

How can I help you King Dedede? I need a monster that can help me get Kirby. That´s what we do best at NME. You better give it with a money-back guarantee!

Posted: 7/22/2013 4:11 PM

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Anwonu

Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 15

Check MUGG's post in the previous page; it shows a few tricks and glitches. Currently, the most important ones would be the fire skip in Yoshi's Island (saves a few seconds), the money glitch (saves a lot of time, but I can't specify how much), and the Shroob Castle skip (saves a few minutes). There's also one skip at the moving tutorial. Saves a few seconds at most. And which version are you doing? J/EU versions are different than U. I'd guess J/EU is faster, but U is more likely to have more glitches (currently, no exclusive useful glitches found yet).

Posted: 7/22/2013 7:39 PM

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ColdStardust

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Joined: 12/29/2012
Posts: 74
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Anwonu wrote:

Check MUGG's post in the previous page; it shows a few tricks and glitches. Currently, the most important ones would be the fire skip in Yoshi's Island (saves a few seconds), the money glitch (saves a lot of time, but I can't specify how much), and the Shroob Castle skip (saves a few minutes). There's also one skip at the moving tutorial. Saves a few seconds at most. And which version are you doing? J/EU versions are different than U. I'd guess J/EU is faster, but U is more likely to have more glitches (currently, no exclusive useful glitches found yet).

Well, we are actually doing the US version. I'm not sure why, actually you'll have to ask Noggy Nog that question. And thanks! :)

How can I help you King Dedede? I need a monster that can help me get Kirby. That´s what we do best at NME. You better give it with a money-back guarantee!

Posted: 11/29/2014 2:40 AM

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jlun2

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Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4981
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Uh...sorry to bump, but: The last boss has this time hole attack mentioned in gamefaqs. I tried searching it but I can't find any vids of it. How does it look like? Oh, and to be on topic, for stache points, how important are they in a run? How much influence do they have on critcals? Is it worth investing on them? Related to that last point: every time you invest on the same stat, the roulette for the next level shows lower and lower numbers. Will it always show +6, or would using the boost on another stat eventually be better in a TAS?

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 11/29/2014 4:52 AM

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jdaster64

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Joined: 12/1/2012
Posts: 103
Location: New Donk City

IIRC, the final boss does the attack where it sets fire to the Shroob ships (with the fire/thunder effects), then sucks them into a hole instead of attacking directly, and they come back a few turns later and fly at the Bros. As for the stat wheels, they will get to only 1's/2's after only a couple of levels, and eventually even the 2's on the wheel will get you a 1. I want to say that if you alternate between two stats at that point, you'll be behind at most one point at any given time compared to what you'd have if you always chose the same one. This is all at least the case in the NA version, not sure about E/J.

Posted: 8/2/2015 3:49 PM

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