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Posted: 5/14/2013 11:15 PM
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Baxter
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FatRatKnight wrote:
Regardless, an upgraded shield is a step away from default starting conditions, and it gives you more to do as well. I say get 'em all.
Same can be said for the potions. If both the magic shield and the bait should be carried by Link at the end of the game, I don't really see why the potions should not be.
http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html
Posted: 5/16/2013 3:40 PM
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TASeditor
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Baxter wrote:
Same can be said for the potions. If both the magic shield and the bait should be carried by Link at the end of the game, I don't really see why the potions should not be.
What would be if the potions are used in the run?
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Posted: 5/16/2013 4:35 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Why would you ever use potions instead of arranging for hearts/fairies as drops? The refill animation is horribly slow; IIRC watching hearts fill up costs more time than taking damage boosts saves.
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Posted: 5/16/2013 4:49 PM
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TASeditor
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I know that it is slower.
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Posted: 5/16/2013 5:25 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
So what was the question for, then? You're never going to use the potions in a TAS. Honestly I think the best way to look at this is "the player should be at maximum power at the end of the game". That seems pretty unambiguous to me. It handles the potions -- you get them because they can be used for healing if, say, a human player decided to take over just before the end. Likewise, you get the meat again because it can be used to control enemy movement (it acts as a decoy, basically) even though the TAS player would never need it. And the magic shield is pretty obviously more powerful than the basic shield, so you get it too.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 5/16/2013 5:31 PM
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FatRatKnight
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It's not as though you'll make great use of the shield anyway, and yet you are picking that up. I don't think you'll make great use of the potion, but why should that determine whether or not this item is part of the 100% description? You can use up the potion to go back to the letter. You can "use up" the magical shield and go back to the default. This can happen endlessly if you desire. But we (or, at the very least, I) would like to see an endgame state where you have the two-dose potion. Where you have the magical shield. Where you have the enemy bait. After all, this gives you more than what you started with. And, if you save, you still have them when you reload.
Posted: 5/16/2013 9:27 PM
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Inzult
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NES TAS of 2021
I know this discussion will never actually end, but are the bomb upgrades purchased or no? I'm curious :)
Posted: 5/17/2013 2:44 AM
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OmegaWatcher
Joined: 5/2/2009
Posts: 656
Inzult wrote:
I know this discussion will never actually end, but are the bomb upgrades purchased or no? I'm curious :)
yes, it is
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =) (ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ
Posted: 5/18/2013 10:12 AM
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TASeditor
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I think the definition for all items have also to fit for a normal playtrough. A normal player would use potions in 9th dungeon and finish the game without.
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Posted: 5/18/2013 10:30 AM
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Baxter
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Maybe a normal player will have his or her shield eaten too. In fact, if a player has maxed out heart containers, the red ring and the magic sword, I'm not so sure that a normal player will have to rely on potions to beat ganon. Yes, you can lose the potion if you use it, but that's true for the meat and for the magic shield too.
http://tasvideos.org/Baxter.html
Posted: 5/18/2013 10:37 AM
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Patashu
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The difference is: The shield is not used up in its normal mode of operation, whereas the meat and potions normal mode of operation is to be used up.
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Posted: 5/19/2013 12:54 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Depends on if you define the normal operation of the meat to be used to solve one puzzle or to be used in the field to distract monsters. :p I still say the best rule for a 100% run is to be at maximum power at the end of the game (aside from remaining rupees/bombs). It's unambiguous and it gets everything the audience expects you to get. All of the comments on the previous run were basically "Why didn't you get X?" or "Well, I can kind of understand why you didn't get potions but it's still weird." Make the run the audience wants to see.
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Posted: 5/21/2013 4:24 PM
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TASeditor
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For reference, OoT Speedrunners get the Deku Shield and the Hylian Shield, to perform glitches, but they can be lost. And they are still part of their objective for 100%, cause of their definition. They don't bother what they have in the bottles, they get all four bottles and that's it. So why would we get the potions in a tLoZ 100% run?
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Posted: 5/21/2013 5:38 PM
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FatRatKnight
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The bottles in OoT can hold a number of different mutually exclusive things. The bottle here can hold only one thing. Well, two, if you count the red and blue bottles as separate items, but the single-dose can be upgraded to the two-dose by purchasing a second single-dose. Sure, the shields in OoT can be lost and regained and all that, but the slots they fill have exactly one purpose: To hold a shield. The slot the bottle in this game fills just one purpose: To hold a healing item. Or the letter used to then fill it with said healing item. Whatever the theme may be, that doesn't mean the items from different games should be treated the same if the mechanics behind it are different. Although, perhaps I should phrase it like this... Should the potion be treated no different from your stock of rupees and bombs? It is empty (Letter), one dose, or two doses. It's basically a range from 0 to 2, like bombs from 0 to 16, or rupees 0 to 255. There's no benefit until they're spent on something. Should the potion be treated no different from the shield? Both can be purchased, both can be lost in some fashion. It isn't just a number seen on one part of the screen and can't be replenished by taking a random item from a defeated enemy. They both improve the situation for the player. There are no mutually exclusive items that fill their slots. If you count the letter as "mutually exclusive", then perhaps the default shield really should also be "mutually exclusive" to the better one. I think it shouldn't be treated different from the shield.
Posted: 5/22/2013 12:28 AM
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zaphod77
Joined: 1/13/2007
Posts: 340
A 100% run in my opinion would end with the red potion in inventory, would have the magical shield, and would collect every bomb upgrade and every hidden rupee cache. (It would ignore all the door repair charge old men).
Posted: 7/29/2013 6:28 PM
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TASeditor
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For the current published any% run (and maybe the 2nd Quest and Swordless Challenge to), I watched the input file and noticed, that the any% run doesn't use the going-inside-obstacles trick on those blue stairs on the overworld. This saves a frame. Not sure if it would save time in the whole run, due to RNG.
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Posted: 9/10/2014 2:42 AM
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MarbleousDave
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A new hack has been released
Posted: 1/24/2015 7:50 PM
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RAT926
Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 47
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1889626136/Legend_of_Zelda%2C_The_%28U%29_%28PRG0%29soundoffglitch.fm2 I found a glitch to turn off the sound of the field. If a tornado in pick up the right edge of the item, the sound will disappear.
Posted: 1/29/2015 12:49 PM
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RAT926
Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 47
I found a little bit of improvement of 2ND quest. Link is located at the right end. If blow at the same time as the scroll of the screen, you can reduce the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rniVaC6Tgok Improvement part only is the movie.
Posted: 2/4/2015 1:21 PM
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RAT926
Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 47
I have improved how to enter for LV8. When you enter from the glitch entrance, it is possible to 7 frames improvement. GIF IMAGE of glitch entrance
Posted: 2/4/2015 1:25 PM
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Tompa
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These small timesavers are really great =D!
Posted: 2/5/2015 5:14 PM
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RAT926
Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 47
Other slight improvement. Position of the link stops in front by the back input. I think it will be the improvement of 1 frame to descend the stairs.
Posted: 2/5/2015 6:51 PM
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TASeditor
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Hopefully these small improvement don't mess with enemy behaviour...
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Posted: 2/6/2015 6:33 AM
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KusogeMan
Experienced player (674)
Joined: 2/5/2012
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Location: Brasil
100% should be just fill all slots with last item available or something like that
TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Posted: 2/19/2015 3:29 PM
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jprofit22
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Joined: 1/19/2009
Posts: 100
TASeditor wrote:
Hopefully these small improvement don't mess with enemy behaviour...
Unfortunately they usually do, but someone might get lucky... For all those who may care I have started the 2nd quest swordless tas. I currently have the whistle, ladder, wand, and am working out some problems with lvl 8 boss. :D
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