So no consistency at all?
Just tried once, when i started 1-T, the goomba was on the bottom left, then moved up afterwards. After beating 1-4, it moved right, then followed behind me as i got right passed him.
I took the same route as you, and my times were mostly similar up until 1-4, which was much slower (406).
What i've tried so far, using a save state right before the pole:
Hitting the pole at different points - makes no difference.
Waiting different amounts of time after the level ends, before moving right - makes no difference.
Killing the parakoopa before the pole - changes the goomba. I can still get to the next level fine, but if i go up instead of to 1-6, the goomba goes up, instead of right like before.
Delaying getting the pole by 1 in game second - the goomba goes right, then down, hitting me. I was able to reach 1-6 by going up, down, up, down, right, or up, left, right, down, right. Doesn't seem to matter exactly how long it delay, or how i do so, so long as the clock says 405, the goomba moves around the same way.
I only tested it briefly, but my guess is that killing enemies and the timer can affect it. The exact frames, what precisely you do, and your score clearly do not affect it at all.
If you mean for the world 5 skip, the problem with it would be you need to manipulate it to be in the middle after 5-1, then head the opposite direction Mario goes when he enters the zone, then to bob when Mario moves to the middle to skip it without a death. The vines will always block the upper and lower path after 5-1 with no deaths, and I don't think I've ever seen a bob (when the plant just goes up and down without changing position) before beating 5-T, and even then I can't recall if it was before or after 5-C was beaten.
If you meant consistency on times, I'm fairly consistent, but human error makes it a little annoying to say I'd always get the same times, but generally I'm always within a second or two of them. The real kicker is enemies, I'll have to learn them a bit better, I think there are a few enemies I always specifically kill, and then others that I sometimes kill.
For now I'll stick with just trying to get a run that is deathless and actually nails all of the major speed tricks, but this should really be looked into for the run, while world 3 and the second and third of 5's overworld monsters will remain just using a star, world 1 and 4's overworld monsters only end up losing time, if we can manipulate them out of the way, we need to learn how.
If you learn anything else that would help, but my major questions are: Do enemy kills throughout the world count? (Like would kills in 1-1 and 1-2 make a noticeable difference?) Are all enemies equal? (Like Hammer Bros/Koopa/Goomba?) Do the kills transfer over worlds (for any% mostly)? Also does that mean the pattern is set once you reach the overworld (Like will the monster always use the same pattern once your in the overworld and in his zone?) or are only a few moves set?
If you find another trigger that would be nice, but the big thing is can world 5's be skipped deathless? If you can manipulate it in a TAS then I guess its time for me to learn it. That would put a sub 25 easily in reach. If you can't manipulate it in a TAS then I wont even bother, thanks for helping with this, again.
Do enemy kills throughout the world count? (Like would kills in 1-1 and 1-2 make a noticeable difference?) Are all enemies equal? (Like Hammer Bros/Koopa/Goomba?) Do the kills transfer over worlds (for any% mostly)?
No idea about any of this. I only tested it briefly using a save state at the very end of 1-4.
Also does that mean the pattern is set once you reach the overworld
Correct. Once you reach the overworld, you cannot actually manipulate them, though you can move around to force them into a favorable position, if you know which way they're going to move.
If you find another trigger that would be nice,
Er, no it wouldn't. If it's just enemy kills and time that effects the rng, manipulating them is plausible. You could just make sure to kill exactly the same enemies every time, and as long as you get the same time on most levels, you could just memorize patterns for each set of times you typically get. Granted, if each specific levels' time matters (rather than just the total sum of time taken), you wouldn't realistically be able to do that unless you got exactly the same time on at least 3 levels, but otherwise it could be done, albeit with difficulty. If there are other factors that can change the rng, there's just no way you're going to be able to do it.
Things that should be tested to see how plausible it is to manipulate them in real time:
- Does anything else affect the rng?
- Does the rng advance in a set order, and exactly the same way each second and enemy kill, or other event that affects the rng?
If the second is how it works, you should be able to just kill the same amount of enemies, and take the same amount of total time, without regard to which enemies are killed, or how much time each particular level takes. If it's more complex than that, i'd abandon the idea of manipulating them.
I've done a little testing myself and I have come up with:
Yes there are other factors involved. :(
It would be nice to know any other triggers so I can know if its possible for me to manipulate them. The key being can I manipulate w/e triggers there are in 1-4.
I did a few runs, and I found that 2 kills (second goomba, final Parakoopa) and a 407 got the Overworld to go from bottom left, to top left, to top right. But it wasn't guaranteed to manipulate it back to top left so I ended up with a 50-50 chance of it attacking Mario.
I don't have a major update from that, the World 5 overworld monster is still up for a manipulated dodge. The only current way to skip it would be two deaths in 5-1 to manipulate the vines, and that comes out to something like 30 seconds in deaths and 12 seconds to get the propeller from the roulette in 5-3, to cut out a 25 second fight. An alternate to that would be getting a star from world 1 mushroom house, an ideal run through that is 40-60 seconds, again to cut out a 25 second fight, but the star also lasts through the first six bramballs, which currently I need to pause for 3 of those to not lose the propeller.
Three levels I'd like to see a TAS of are 5-3, 5-T and 8-2, because I don't think my current strategies for them are really the best for each level, but since you have desync issues I'm not really expecting anything.
I suppose I'll also need to time how much time it takes for a mushroom house in world 1 to pay out 1 star, and then compare that to how much time the Plant actually takes and how much time you could potentially save in 5-3 by being able to star through the first 6 bramballs, instead of pausing for the 1st, 4th and 6th.
A straight up skip would of course be nicer... but we can't have everything, and I used to think 5-2 was faster then 5-3, so obviously I should re-test a few things in world 5.
Three levels I'd like to see a TAS of are 5-3, 5-T and 8-2, because I don't think my current strategies for them are really the best for each level, but since you have desync issues I'm not really expecting anything.
Do you just want me to find the best strategies, or actually tas them? I could do it a lot faster and easier if i'm not trying to perfectly optimize everything when it's obvious what the best thing to do is.
It doesn't really desync much/at all when playing back from save state. If it doesn't matter if it syncs from the start or not, desyncs aren't really a problem. You're overestimating how much it desyncs anyway. I fully tased the first two levels 3-4 times each, without a single desync, then got 2-3 in one spot, and stopped trying.
I did a few runs, and I found that 2 kills (second goomba, final Parakoopa) and a 407 got the Overworld to go from bottom left, to top left, to top right. But it wasn't guaranteed to manipulate it back to top left so I ended up with a 50-50 chance of it attacking Mario.
Was the clock always at the same time when you killed each enemy?
For 5-3 and 8-2 I'd mostly just want to see a TAS run because I feel my times (442 and 422 respectively) could be improved. 5-3 has a propeller all the way through, and 8-2 uses regular (small) Mario all the way through (damage boosts in 8-1 lose the propeller).
5-3 is a new level for me, since for over a year I was using SDA's segmented route and when your bad at the game (like when I started) 5-2 ends up being faster because its easier to do. I just want to know if there is a noticeable improvement over my times for those levels, a 1 igs improvement or so doesn't really bother me, but if you can get 3 or more then obviously I need to improve it before my next attempts.
5-T is more of a theory, I can make it to the big door at 546 on average I believe 548 is possible, but the big thing is, can I get there a cycle earlier? I've gotten really close but never managed to get the early cycle, I figured if it's possible a TAS could do it and I could see where I need to execute and if I could get it in a run, that would be 5-10 seconds saved.
For the kill times no it wasn't, the second goomba always had the same time, but not the parakoopa. I'll run some more tests and enter pipes/hit enemies at the same time, see if that consistently manipulates him and get back to you on it.
Ahh so the desyncs only end up happening in specific spots and it just causes problems for a full run and not level-by-level? I really don't know all I got was "game desyncs, can't do the run" so just going with after 1-2 the game is too annoying to bother with :P
Ahh so the desyncs only end up happening in specific spots and it just causes problems for a full run and not level-by-level?
Can't really say after just a few desyncs. None of the desyncs i had happened when playing back from a save state at the start of the level. I also almost never saw desyncs from save state even before wiimote sync was really fixed, which when played from the start, averaged a desync basically every single time a desync would have been noticed, and probably more too.
I'll take a shot at those levels, but don't expect anything soon.
I did further testing: Kill goomba two at 498, enter the end pipe at 411 kill parakoopa at 408, flag at 407. This doesn't change the first 2 movements for him, the third still has about a 50-50 chance of him going left instead of down.
Do you think coin collection or input changes it? Manipulating this in real time doesn't seem plausible, there is something missing for behavior manipulation, I think since real time behavior manipulation isn't going well I won't be able to do it consistently enough for now.
Don't stress the IL's they'd be nice but I'm more concerned with Warpless, and the route is slightly different there now.
Joined: 10/16/2012
Posts: 233
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Who can make it through with the goal "cannonless capless coinless"?
That means warpless, with 99 lives, and with as little coins as possible.
If I could have a tool-assisted real life, I'd...
Being a novice, I'd probably load the wrong state, have the IRS AI bankrupt me, and eventually make me want to kill myself and redo 11 years of hard work.
You could probably farm the lives somewhere. Pretty much every Mario game has a spot where you can quickly farm infinite lives by getting an infinite combo off a shell and a staircase.
"Warpless, avoiding coins" can be a pretty interesting goal in Mario games, though (e.g. I've had quite a lot of fun doing it in NSMB DS; the minimum is 7 coins, which can be accomplished with only 1 alternate exit, and perhaps even with 0). Requiring life farming seems a little out of place, though, unless it can be easily accomplished during any mandatory autoscrollers that might be in the run.
nSMB wii has in the castle a bunch of "hint" videos and "superplay" videos you can unlock with the coins. A lot of them offer players locations to get infinite 1-ups. I personally recall there being at least 6 spots where you can either infinitely get lives, or get a LARGE amount of lives and reset the level/die.
I want to TAS a 100% run. And I've finished until 1-2. I submit it here and could someone give me some advice please?
In 1-1, I run and slide on the rotational wheel. Jump on it at the beginning to get 3.22 speed. And I have tested that slide instead of jumping at the end can be faster. So I slide every time.
Also, I've tested that using ceiling boosting can be faster. Although it decreases speed for several frames while squating.
In 1-2, I jump across some short slope instead of running on it. Because running on it at the beginning every time will decrease speed. If slope is not long enough, it will be slow.
I use star power, it saves about 80 frames for me.
video download(60FPS):
Link 1: mediafireLink 2: skydrive
Watching online:
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/umCMZ_Jr00s/
Eh? Sliding at the end of the rotating wheels is definitely not faster. You can maintain ~3.2 (i don't remember exactly) speed until you land, by jumping before you get off
I have seen a video (up to world1 tower) with some 2player strats for 100% if that helps.
Though I imagine a 100% multiplayer TAS would use 4 players even if it did require speed/entertainment tradeoffs.
Yeah, that glitch will help me. And I'll try it.
2 players is faster somewhere, of course. But I'm sorry I fear to do a more than 1 player TAS. Due to my contra hc 2P run. I can't make different actions with many actor very well.
Also, I have a small plan. I plan to get all star coins in 1-1 and 1-2. And no star coin in 1-3. Go the secret route to open 1-cannon. Then pass 1-tower and get all star coins.Then skip to world 5 and skip to world 8. After passing 8-tower. Then go back to world 1. Change to flower suit. Then pass all stages in world 1. Go to world 2.
Though I imagine a 100% multiplayer TAS would use 4 players even if it did require speed/entertainment tradeoffs.
Personally, unlike most other games with 4 players, I feel like using all 4 players in this game is sort of unnecessary and might even take away from the entertainment. The reason being is that with 4 players, there would be a lot of places (namely, the secret areas with coins) where 2 additional players wouldn't speed anything up because the second player can probably do everything on his own in the small time between the first player entering the pipe and the screen transitioning (as seen in the youtube video).
Though I imagine a 100% multiplayer TAS would use 4 players even if it did require speed/entertainment tradeoffs.
Personally, unlike most other games with 4 players, I feel like using all 4 players in this game is sort of unnecessary and might even take away from the entertainment. The reason being is that with 4 players, there would be a lot of places (namely, the secret areas with coins) where 2 additional players wouldn't speed anything up because the second player can probably do everything on his own in the small time between the first player entering the pipe and the screen transitioning (as seen in the youtube video).
It does allow for some interesting playaround though.
Though I imagine a 100% multiplayer TAS would use 4 players even if it did require speed/entertainment tradeoffs.
Personally, unlike most other games with 4 players, I feel like using all 4 players in this game is sort of unnecessary and might even take away from the entertainment. The reason being is that with 4 players, there would be a lot of places (namely, the secret areas with coins) where 2 additional players wouldn't speed anything up because the second player can probably do everything on his own in the small time between the first player entering the pipe and the screen transitioning (as seen in the youtube video).
It is entirely possible to have all of them turn into a bubble in order to remove the delay between the first person entering an area. As shown in the video, turning into a bubble stops the waiting time. So if they turn into a bubble as soon as all the star coins are collected in an area, it would not really take away from the overall time. Though I agree that there may not be any significant advantages to having 4 over 2 in many of the areas, there could be other areas in a level where one might need the extra boost in jumping height or a wider area to jump across, where having one or two more bubbles to bounce off of may save time.
When I originally thought of the idea of using all 4 players in a TAS of this game, I envisioned using the bubbles in order to help gain access to places, especially since, upon dying, the players' bubbles come in from the right. That way, I was thinking there may also be places where you can just keep jumping from bubble to bubble at a certain intervals, at the cost of quite a few player deaths in some spots. This was somewhat inspired by how a few friends and I completed the final area of the game, where someone was always alive to bounce off one of the bubbles, which removed the need for the moving platforms.
Like the update, I see everyone is pointing out most of my little nitpicking thoughts so I'll just post the two things I have:
1) In 1-1 you might want to test your 2nd and 3rd coins again, if I remember correctly waiting for the pipe is actually faster then collecting the third coin first. Retest it, I know I found it weird but it came out faster for real time, not sure if TAS magic would change it.
2) Rog got the 1-2 block clip at full speed I believe, so it should be possible and would save like, half a second, but its worthwhile.
Check out ewallertv's videos on twitch he did a lot of NSMBW 100% runs, we routed out A LOT so we think we have what should be the best route. You do want to take the cannon in world 1 first, and world 5's either when you visit there a 2nd time or right away. This saves time in world 1, 2, 3, 5 and 7, because of a small cutscene you can skip if the airship moves on.
Something to remember about world 5 is the vines, ewaller and myself spent quite a bit trying to figure out the best way through world 5 without getting blocked by vines, TAS magic though can probably fix any vine problems and skip almost all the enemies without visiting star houses (Only one that is unconfirmed for skip is the first P Plant in world 5 without a death/revisit).
Unless you can skip that first plant I think you'd want to return to world 1 and save world 5 for when you get a star, but I'll leave the final route to you if you think it'd be better to skip the star, a star house star should save a few seconds.
