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Posted: 8/28/2012 8:58 PM
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funnyhair
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can you use the 64 room trick in a dungeon, if so, can you use it in the dungeon right after you get Tellah to skip the dungeon? Is that possible? Would it just be possible to skip from there OVER the Edward part?
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
Posted: 8/28/2012 10:43 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
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As I understand it, the dungeon needs to have repeatable transitions that result in a net increment in the room index -- which generally should correspond to an area where the map has loops in it. The Underground Waterway is a strictly linear map, so it wouldn't work. Also, you have to grind up Rydia to get the spell. Per this FAQ, Rydia gets Warp at level 12; Tellah doesn't have it until he gets his full spell list at Mount Ordeals. Getting Rydia to level 12 in an efficient manner should be interesting, since it strongly implies she'll be soloing some fights.
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Posted: 8/29/2012 12:39 AM
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banshiryuu
Joined: 8/24/2012
Posts: 9
According to the Japanese explanation page, it IS possible to increase the counter in the Underground Waterway (actually, a majority of the doors are Go doors both ways, apparently) and it says the Return door is in a "hidden room" or something. I didn't figure it out and actually haven't had much time to keep going through the game and checking each place like Sir VG is doing. The freezing at floor -3 is pretty bizarre, though, considering that the warp after Golbez that the video demonstrated shouldn't be possible then because the Lunar Whale events haven't happened at that point. It made sense at -2 early on, but at -3 it doesn't make sense to me.
Posted: 8/29/2012 5:33 AM
(Edited: 8/29/2012 6:40 AM)
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Sir_VG
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Here's a list of the various locations where the 64 room layers bug works, translating and testing from the list I linked earlier. I'll separate tested and untested. Tested (unless a name is specified, I've tested it personally): Town of Baron. Values increment when going though the door leading to Serpent Road. Other locations decrease. Kaipo. Values increase going in/out of the house where Rosa is, lower going out of any other building. Confirmed by banshiryuu. Underground Water Way. This is the secret room that is under the waterfall in the first room of the dungeon. Use the stairs to B2 and back to get the count to 63, then go under the waterfall. Confirmed by dunnius. Antlion's Lair. Values increase everywhere except for exiting the save room in the back of the dungeon. Best place to go is the stairs in the back of the dungeon then when at 63 go into the door into the save room then back out. Fabul. Values increment everywhere except going down the left tower. Mysidia. Values increment going though the door to the building with Serpent's Road. Values decrease everywhere else. Toria Castle: Says it decreases when leaving Edward's room. Confirmed by dunnius. Dwarf Castle: Values increment everywhere except going out of the Cafe. If you play the Japanese version, they decrease going out of the Developer's area too, which comes into play for warping there. Tomera Village (the town in the SW corner of the underworld). Increases going into/out of the weapon/armor shop. Decreases everywhere else. Confirmed by dunnius. Untested: Baron Castle. Notes state the return value is leaving the prison area. Old Waterway. Says it decreases when leaving the save room. I'm guessing the count does NOT reset when moving from Town of Baron to this area. (Or from this area to Baron.) Tower of Babil, Lower Section: Says it decreases when "coming out of a small room", so likely a save room. Elban Cave: Says it decreases when coming out of a store?
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Posted: 8/29/2012 6:03 AM
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banshiryuu
Joined: 8/24/2012
Posts: 9
Sir VG wrote:
Untested: Kaipo. Notes state about some "sleeping area" but whether this refers to the house Rosa is at or the Inn I'm not sure yet.
It's the house Rosa's sleeping in, this area is actually one of the only ones I tested.
Posted: 8/29/2012 6:34 AM
(Edited: 8/29/2012 6:39 PM)
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dunnius
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Underground Water Way(Watery Pass): This is the secret room that is under the waterfall in the first room of the dungeon. I used the stairs to B2 and back to increment the count, then go under the waterfall. This is confirmed. Tororia Castle: This is confirmed. I went in and out the left door of the castle to increment the counter. Tomra Village is the village in the underworld in the southwest corner, near the sealed cave. This is confirmed. Edit (emulator time!): Baron Castle: This is confirmed, and can be done during the intro. The count decreases exiting both the prison area, and the door to the outside. The counter starts at 10 due to the first part of the intro, so go through 54 doors before entering the prison from outside the castle, then immediately leave. ALSO!, the counter decreases when exiting the room that Cid goes out of during the intro(and also back from the dead end area from there). I have confirmed that it works there as well. I also noticed that the counter also decreases going out of the rooms that explain magic, but the counter cannot easily be 64 when entering either of the rooms. I have also confirmed that the counter does not reset when entering Baron from the Old Waterway. So the glitch can be done in Baron castle after going through the Old Waterway, and can also be done from the main entrance of Baron Castle. The counter does decrease when exiting the save room in the Old Waterway, as well as reentering the Old Waterway from Baron Castle, but because of the way the rooms up, neither is useful because it is hard to get a 64 in the right spot, and also because either the prison or the room that Cid comes out of is right there. Antlion Cave: The small room with the harp also decrements the counter when leaving, but there is no way to get the entry to be the 64th floor. Fabul: The Inn and Weapon shop decrement, but those can't be used. The ENTIRE left tower decrements when going down the tower, so it makes obtaining the 64th floor very easy. Also the crystal room decrements the counter, but it is not useful. Mysidia!!!: The House of Wishes only increments the counter, so the 64 room glitch can be done BEFORE Cecil becomes a Paladin. Dwarf Castle: The towers also decrement the counter when going down. Tower of Bab-il (Lower): All small rooms decrement the counter when leaving. Surprisingly the area with the archer bow, and all doors going up after the Super Cannon all decrement the counter when going back down. Only the archer bow, door going up after Super Cannon, Save #2 room, and the last door going up to Lugae are ones that be the 64th floor. This is verified. Eblan Cave: all rooms in the "town" decrement the counter, but they can't be the 64th floor. Tower of Bab-il (Upper): After the pitfall, going back in any door decrements the counter. I've verified that the glitch works here. Nothing else after that has the 64 floor glitch.
Posted: 8/29/2012 10:41 AM
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Sir_VG
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Ok, I've played though watching RAM and studying the code. I've determined now that it's NOT possible to do this glitch in the way needed before entering the underworld. First off, the values pulled that determine Map ID and X/Y coordinates are actually pulled in a set fashion from SRAM. The values start at 7E172B (map ID), 7E172C (X) and 7E172D (Y) and set back 3 values at every map transition. Map ID determines which map is pulled up, which appears to be different maps depending on whether you're in the overworld or the underworld. Map ID #0 for the overworld must be the Town of Baron while the one for the underworld I think is the smithing shop in the SE corner. Since there are certain 0 values (as some SRAM spots are never used), that's the likely reason it's not possible to do it in the overworld. So thus my conclusion is that it's pointless to try it until after Golbez is beaten in Dwarf Castle. It would have been cool to try to do it earlier, but it's just not possible without hacking SRAM values.
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Posted: 8/29/2012 3:35 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
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Well, I guess that moots my concern of what happens if you make it to the Zemus cutscene without a properly-initialized party. In particular I was wondering what happens if you don't have a valid party member to fight alongside Golbez. In the video posted, Cid took FuSoYa's place, but what if Cid hadn't joined yet?
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Posted: 8/29/2012 4:48 PM
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banshiryuu
Joined: 8/24/2012
Posts: 9
Ah, I guess that does explain why it would be stuck on the Overworld and not the Underworld. Well shoot, I was hoping there would be some sliver of hope for it, but at least we can do something with it even if it's not as early as we'd like.
Posted: 8/30/2012 7:27 AM
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Sir_VG
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I tried a few other things today while experimenting. Here's what I found out. 1. If you skip to FuSoYa w/ a full 5 member party (IOW skipping the Falcon sequence), the game will claim he joins, but he does not. Sorry guys, no 6 member party corruption. 2. You do NOT need to warp back to Dwarf Castle after getting FuSoYa in order to work on corrupting his spells. You can simply exit out of the Lunar Palace via the south door. Still need to rearrange his spells though 3. You can begin the first sequence right after the Cal & Brena/Golbez fights. The room count, assuming you go straight into the throne room initially, warp back to the crystal room, then back to the throne room is 3 at the throne room (post crystal). As for the question "why Cid" I don't know. Cid's values are close to FuSoYa's in SRAM (like character name is Cid's name, Edge's name, then FuSoYa's name), but I'm not sure if that's why. If it wouldn't pull up Cid, it would probably pull up another character is my guess.
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Posted: 8/30/2012 7:18 PM
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funnyhair
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I wonder what would happen if we could skip the Mount Ordeals. I will start a new game, get there and see if Palom or Porim, I can't remember who is the black mage, has warp. But if it can't work until the underworld, would splicing parts of the current run work? Also, there is still a lot of the game left after the Underworld. I had this game for the SNES, and the packet that came with it had a guide that brought you just to the underworld for the first time. it was awesome and like half the game.
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
Posted: 8/30/2012 8:23 PM
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banshiryuu
Joined: 8/24/2012
Posts: 9
The glitch doesn't work if you try to perform it off of the current run. It freezes at floor -7, so I presume it's because the hovercraft isn't in its specific place. Plus, the un-hex-friendly nature of the game doesn't help much when talking about inserting parts of the current run...
Posted: 8/30/2012 8:27 PM
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funnyhair
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ahh that stinks. Other alternatives then! Also, to whom is running this, good Luck!
[19:16] <scrimpy> silly portuguese [19:16] <scrimpy> it's like spanish, only less cool
Posted: 8/30/2012 9:30 PM
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Sir_VG
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banshiryuu wrote:
The glitch doesn't work if you try to perform it off of the current run. It freezes at floor -7, so I presume it's because the hovercraft isn't in its specific place. Plus, the un-hex-friendly nature of the game doesn't help much when talking about inserting parts of the current run...
Correct. The hovercraft needs to be 1 space left of the western Mt. Hobs entrance. There would be another problem later as the Chocobo went off screen to the right (not the left) so its X/Y coordinates are off. (Coordinates for yellow Chocobos do NOT zero out when it is dismounted. So floor -10 might be an issue too. (The last chocobo I recall being used in the TAS before Dwarf Castle is going back to Mysidia.)
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 8/31/2012 1:15 AM
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DarkKobold
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I just wanna pop in and say, I love all this research going on. This is going to be the next crazy broken game, joining the ranks of OoT and Chrono Trigger.
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Posted: 8/31/2012 7:43 AM
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Sir_VG
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It's broken, but not to that level. You still have to play a big chunk of the game.
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Posted: 8/31/2012 3:22 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
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It's still going to have a segment of "what the heck is going on oh wait now the game's over wait what?" Which is all anyone can really ask for from a glitched RPG TAS. :)
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Posted: 9/3/2012 10:55 AM
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N._Harmonik
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Would it obsolete the current run or would it be published separately?
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Posted: 9/3/2012 2:59 PM
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Acheron86
Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417
Earthbound's any% had a similar shift in glitching (from completing most major plot points to skipping to the end a certain way into the game) and I believe that obsoleted the published run there. Not sure if it's a reliable precedent, but it's the closest example I can think of for the given genre of game and style of glitch.
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Posted: 9/3/2012 4:24 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
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If I recall correctly, the current FF4 run doesn't skip any of the plot except for the Sealed Cave boss (which hardly counts as it just comes out of nowhere). Otherwise the main glitches I can think of are the one used to powerlevel Rosa, and the one used to kill Zeromus before he refills his health. Whereas, didn't the previous Earthbound run do some fairly major skips, and then the glitched run came around and just skipped even more? In other words, I do think there is a significant difference in scope between an FF4 run with this glitch and one without it. And perhaps more importantly, it's easy to define what's "allowed" without using this glitch -- just don't overflow the warp counter. Of course, a run using this glitch would take over the any% title, and the old run would have to be named something like "any%, no warp glitch".
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Posted: 9/4/2012 5:51 AM
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pirohiko
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If Mid-frame reset of Lsnes is used, it is possible to carry out glitched warp like ChronoTrigger. Then, it can go to Cave of Eblana, and after defeating Rubicante, the 64th floor Glitch of Underworld can be used. However, Cecil needs to become Paradine for defeating Zeromus.
Posted: 9/4/2012 7:58 AM
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Sir_VG
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pirohiko wrote:
If Mid-frame reset of Lsnes is used, it is possible to carry out glitched warp like ChronoTrigger. Then, it can go to Cave of Eblana, and after defeating Rubicante, the 64th floor Glitch of Underworld can be used. However, Cecil needs to become Paradine for defeating Zeromus.
Could you further explain how that would work? Where it would be used, how it would be used, results?
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Posted: 9/4/2012 4:09 PM
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pirohiko
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You can get over an obstacle when you reset it between X and Y when you do overwrite of the SRAM. But prior adjustment is necessary because there is check sum. The check sum is 2 bytes, but gets off with only adjustment for 1 byte if even a central character agrees. If a central character does not agree, it never succeeds. If Cecil in the fight with Zeromus is not Paradin, he does not revive.
Posted: 9/4/2012 5:52 PM
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Derakon
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Even if Cecil was revived in the Zeromus fight, I imagine you'd need him to be a Paladin in order for the Crystal to work properly. At least, I assume that any other character using the Crystal would not work (otherwise you could have e.g. Kain use the Crystal!), and isn't Dark Knight Cecil is a different character from Paladin Cecil?
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Posted: 9/7/2012 3:51 PM
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Deign
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Derakon wrote:
Isn't Dark Knight Cecil is a different character from Paladin Cecil?
Yes. If I remember right, Cecil regains the ability to crit after becoming a Paladin due to this.
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