Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
I actually think the only BK skip the TAS will be able to do there is the zombie hover skip. All the others require the tingle tuner.
Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3929
Location: Germany
The tingle less TAS will do FW BK skip with storage DRC BK skip with ledgeclip and leaf pumping ET BK skip with ledgeclip and leaf pumping WT BK skip with zombie hover (healed by fairy) and ledgeclip
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
MUGG wrote:
ET BK skip with ledgeclip and leaf pumping
Are you sure that is possible? Doesn't seem so to me.
Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 102
Location: Not Japan
Slowking wrote:
MUGG wrote:
ET BK skip with ledgeclip and leaf pumping
Are you sure that is possible? Doesn't seem so to me.
Yes, it is.
Player (34)
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
Slowking wrote:
MUGG wrote:
ET BK skip with ledgeclip and leaf pumping
Are you sure that is possible? Doesn't seem so to me.
You underestimate the power of leaf pumping.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Seems legit.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Well that is a long way to pump. I just really didn't think that even double magic would be enough for that. But if you all say so.
Player (34)
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
Escape M&C without BoG. Link to video
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Seems legit.
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
I found the velocity addresses. They are 32 bit float big endian (unsupported by MHS to my knowledge) You need to use CheatEngine. The value moves around on me during different instances of the program. In Cheat Engine Right click value type Define New Custom Type Auto-Assembler Paste the code below. Click the magnifying glass on the computer icon to attach it to Dolphin. You might want to check mark 'writable', box 'executable' and box 'CopyOnWrite'. You also want to change the option Edit: Settings: Scan Settings: Put a Check in MEM_MAPPED. These may or may not be extraneous steps. Walking north is negative. Walking left is negative. Walking at full speed stays between about 12 and 18 speed depending on hills. To do scan type 'value between' you'll want either (-18 to -12) or (12 to 18). If you also search between -0.1 and 0.1 when standing still, you should be able to find it. I still have trouble finding it sometimes and it's usually findable once I reboot Dolphin and reattach Cheat Engine a couple times. The values for X and Y are located 8 apart. (Credit to mgr.inz.Player on CheatEngine forums.)
alloc(TypeName,256)
alloc(ByteSize,4)
alloc(ConvertRoutine,1024)
alloc(ConvertBackRoutine,1024)
alloc(UsesFloat,4)

TypeName:
db 'Float Big Endian',0
ByteSize:
dd 4
UsesFloat:
db 01

ConvertRoutine:
[32-bit]
push ebp
mov ebp,esp
mov eax,[ebp+8] //place the address that contains the bytes into eax
mov eax,[eax]   //place the bytes into eax
bswap eax
pop ebp
ret 4
[/32-bit]

[64-bit]
//rcx=address of input
mov eax,[rcx] //eax now contains the bytes 'input' pointed to
bswap eax
ret
[/64-bit]

ConvertBackRoutine:
[32-bit]
push ebp
mov ebp,esp
//[ebp+8]=input
//[ebp+c]=address of output
push eax
push ebx
mov eax,[ebp+8] //load the value into eax
mov ebx,[ebp+c] //load the address into ebx
bswap eax
mov [ebx],eax //write the value into the address
pop ebx
pop eax

pop ebp
ret 8
[/32-bit]

[64-bit]
//ecx=input
//rdx=address of output
bswap ecx
mov [rdx],ecx //place the integer the 4 bytes pointed to by rdx
ret
[/64-bit]
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Some relevant times purely from testing. I am sure they can be improved by some percentage. Maybe 10%? Outset to Forest Haven: requires ~1200 speed, ~30 seconds Outset to Northern Fairy Isle: requires ~1400 speed, ~35 seconds Outset to Dragon Roost (DRI): ~1600 speed, ~40 seconds Forest Haven to Bomb Island Sub: ~600 speed, ~18 seconds Bomb Island to Forest Haven entry via unloading: ~2000-3000 speed, ~35-40 seconds Based on these tests I'm going to come up with some rough numbers liberally rounded to seem uniform. Accumulating speed 200 frames: (6.67 seconds): 500 speed 300 frames: (10 seconds): 900 speed (It gets difficult to maintain speed accumulation after this, I need to test more.) 400 frames: (13.33 seconds): 1100 speed 500 frames: (16.67 seconds): 1300 speed 600 frames: (20 seconds): 1500 speed 700 frames: (23.33 seconds): 1700 speed 800 frames: (26.67 seconds): 1900 speed 900 frames: (30 seconds): 2200 speed 1000 frames: (33.33 seconds): 2500 speed Including speed accumulation time and travel time: Travel 1 grid square: 16 seconds ~600 speed Travel 2 grid squares: 20 seconds ~800 speed Travel 3 grid squares: 24 seconds ~1000 speed Travel 4 grid squares: 27 seconds ~1200 speed (You can probably barely do this without re-airing, so no speed loss due to suboptimal turning. No considerations need made for an airing island.) Travel 5 grid squares: 32 seconds ~1400 speed (requires re-air) Travel 6 grid squares: 35 seconds ~1500 speed Travel 7 grid squares: 38 seconds ~1600 speed Unloading an island: 30-35 seconds to accumulate ~2000-3000 speed, plus about 2-3 seconds per grid square traveled. These numbers are intended to give a vague idea of considerations that should be made when routing. --------------------- Route 1: Outset to N Fairy Isle (Rupee Bag) - 6 Grid Squares - (6GS) - 35s N Fairy Isle to Windfall - (1GS)- 16s Windfall to Dragon Roost - (2GS) - 20s Dragon Roost to Bomb Island Sub (3GS) - 24s Bomb Island Sub to Forest Haven (1GS) - 16s Wind Waker Diving (Bag Dive?) - +10s Forest Water Forest Haven to Greatfish - (5GS) - 32s Greatfish to N Fairy Isle Sub - (3GS) - 24s Total: 177s Route 2: Outset to Forest Haven to trigger cutscene (can't unload inside with cutscene playing) - (4GS) - 27s Forest Haven to Bomb Island Sub - (1GS) - 16s Bomb Island Sub to Superswim Unload Forest Haven - 40s Forest Water Forest Haven to N Fairy Isle - (6GS) - 35s N Fairy Isle to Windfall - (1GS) - 16s Windfall to Greatfish - (3GS) - 24s Greatfish to N Fairy Isle Sub: - (3GS) - 24s Total 182s I would choose the second route because the forest water timer runs down for an extra 40 seconds or so. I'm probably going to try to come up with the route that stretches forest water the most. To superswim unload forest haven you have to get a really high speed. I've had best luck entering from the right side. You have to get under the island before the island loads. Unloaded water around there makes you fall far. You need to fall close to or under the island such that when you surface you are under the island. Look forward to a possible route update hopefully within a week or so.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
What do you actually need forest water for? I thought the cabana was the only use.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
The Forest Water isn't even needed anymore: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDXdt6zZTDo
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
That's what I meant Tompa. :D Just wasn't sure if there was some other use.
Skilled player (1737)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4979
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
Slowking wrote:
That's what I meant Tompa. :D Just wasn't sure if there was some other use.
Uh...no use at all? :P
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
I never said there was no other use. That's why I asked. In the post you quoted I said that I wasn't sure. Did you read it? ;p So the TAS is going to use forest water to skip the BK? Is that really worth it? Can you time that correctly? Guess I'll have to put my trust in Abahbob there. If he can pull this off it's pretty damn impressive. Wouldn't this take an extra trip to forest haven and wouldn't that eat all the time not getting the BK saves?
Experienced player (674)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1781
Location: Brasil
Slowking wrote:
I never said there was no other use. That's why I asked. In the post you quoted I said that I wasn't sure. Did you read it? ;p So the TAS is going to use forest water to skip the BK? Is that really worth it? Can you time that correctly? Guess I'll have to put my trust in Abahbob there. If he can pull this off it's pretty damn impressive. Wouldn't this take an extra trip to forest haven and wouldn't that eat all the time not getting the BK saves?
i don't think there's an extra forest haven entrance,since they will only enter for the leaf and forest water and will be able to skip the entrance with the tornado around the FW...they will just do other thing on the meantime
TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Editor
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
I don't understand anything that's being talked about in this thread, but I am sure it's awesome stuff.
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war. The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
Editor, Player (95)
Joined: 5/27/2006
Posts: 240
forest haven is faster with bombs anyway, which you wouldn't have by the first trip. at least i think so, assuming the first thing you do is get a bottle and go there so that the timer can start asap.
Player (34)
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
I would say that the forest water should be timed to ~50 frames. Thats just so it would seem optimized. Of course 1 frame would be nice, but I just can't do that. I'm kind of interested in how you expect to get rupees for the Sail. Luckily, we got DRC tunerless to work out great. Since we have bombs and leaf, we will be able to bomb drop on a pot. Unless Mugg decides to take a different route and use a Keese heart drop. That is going to be a pain as well. I'll start working on that superswim speed variable stuff in about a week. Not at home so I don't have access to Dolphin. Skipping the FW BK saves a lot of time. Even if we get to the chest with the forest water with 10 seconds left, I would be happy. Hell, as long as it isn't early I'll be excited.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Seems legit.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
I guess forest water could expire any time in the dungeon, as long as you are not in mid flight at that moment... But do you really have 20 minutes worth of game time stuff to do before you get there? That's a long time for a TAS and the first part of the game doesn't have that much stuff to do...
BioSpark wrote:
forest haven is faster with bombs anyway, which you wouldn't have by the first trip. at least i think so, assuming the first thing you do is get a bottle and go there so that the timer can start asap.
How would bombs make forest haven faster exactly?
Editor, Expert player (2328)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3929
Location: Germany
We can do FW BK skip and Light arrows skip with forest water.
Luckily, we got DRC tunerless to work out great
Not yet, as I told you, it's pretty obnoxious RNG patterns to deal with but then again I only attempted one promising-looking ZH.
I guess forest water could expire any time in the dungeon, as long as you are not in mid flight at that moment...
You have to be in the same room as the chest. You can't go through doors with storage on.
But do you really have 20 minutes worth of game time stuff to do before you get there?
It's not been looked into. I'd like to wait more, and finish up some more small TASes before considering a route.
forest haven is faster with bombs anyway, which you wouldn't have by the first trip.
Why not? You use a bomb to start the ZH to the leaf.
Editor, Player (95)
Joined: 5/27/2006
Posts: 240
oh. never mind. i thought i knew more than i did haha.
Player (34)
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
When I said DRC looking nice, I meant using the pots for hearts. That is good. If you want to do Keese, then thats not looking too nice. With the BK Skip storage, it needs to be after the fight in the room with the chest. Otherwise you store the CS of the chest appearing. I know we can get atleast 20 mins of stuff. I'm just not sure we can get exactly 20 mins of stuff. Remember, I'm not working on a TAS from the beginning right now. There is so much routing and discovery that I don't want a 3rd, 4th, 5th..... test TAS. It's not worth it. I mean, it just takes one question to save so much time. For example, the bomb shop CS skip. I think Cosmo just said that there had to be a way to skip the CS and then we looked into it. That lead to the clip into the ship and canceling CS's with Pirate Password storage and with KoRL texts. Then Mugg got FWless Cabana Deed skip. So I may do another test TAS soon, maybe in a week. But a complete TAS will be a long time. I mean a LONG time from now.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Seems legit.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
No I said that and was really annoying about it till it was tested. (at least if you are refering to the ledge clip method) That's also how I got Grunz to break MM. Being annoying is a gift and a curse. XD
Player (34)
Joined: 3/8/2012
Posts: 398
Location: Windfall Island
If you are talking about Bomb Shop CS skip, I'm afraid you are mistaken. You may have been pushing it, but I never heard about it. I was in Cosmo's stream when he said that there should be a skip or something, thats when I found my method. Then pretty much the next day Klyde found the ledgeclip.
IronSlayer wrote:
Your counterargument would be like me saying that the Earth is round and then you telling me that I need to show it's flat so I can "prove us all wrong".
Seems legit.
Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193
Yeah like I said, I was the one saying "there has to be a ledge clip method" considering how many ledges and corners there are on that ship, in Cosmos stream. After that Klyde went and found it. I really don't know if he had tried it if I hadn't been my annoying self. Maybe, maybe not. :D But in the end it doesn't really matter. It's his discovery.

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