I'm pretty sure there are different results as child or adult. Go into DC, beat KD, savewarp, and then try to do the death CS skip. Child freezes, adult is successful.
So if any% was ever done on dolphin, would the route basically not collect the last 20r and skip last rod steal and use the bottle swipe glitch to get stick on B when collecting the bugs or fish?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
So, since we want to have 80r before DoT so you don't have to take a delay towards KV shop, is it faster to get the 20r in river or all 60r on chains? And I'm not so sure you can manipulate all 5r drops from bushes without having to delay a significant amount of frames to get the manipulation, also the more bushes you have to slash the further out the way you have to go so they start cost more time for more bushes. I wouldn't be surprised if it's best to get 15-20r from bushes before first rod steal, then use the rock by magic for the next 20r, you might be able to check the rock while waiting on the bomb for the skip to DC trick, or at least partially waiting on bomb. That way you wouldn't have to go off route to further away bushes the first or second time you're at lake.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
It's amazing how he is able to ignore all the facts about his suggestions being impossible, his timings irrelevant and his questions stupid.
Instead of explaining why he neglects prior information from others or apologizing for wrong assumptions or his missguided and borderline racist comment about rupees/rubies, he just keeps asking stupid questions.
I'm starting to think Swordless might be right.
Maybe he is just a troll.
It's amazing how he is able to ignore all the facts about his suggestions being impossible, his timings irrelevant and his questions stupid.
Instead of explaining why he neglects prior information from others or apologizing for wrong assumptions or his missguided and borderline racist comment about rupees/rubies, he just keeps asking stupid questions.
I'm starting to think Swordless might be right.
Maybe he is just a troll.
But you are right, I spent way too much time with this crap. I'm going to ignore him from now on. You guys have fun explaining to him, over and over again, why his ideas are stupid. Let's see how long you can stay friendly.
...
Synx wrote:
It's amazing how he is able to ignore all the facts about his suggestions being impossible, his timings irrelevant and his questions stupid.
Instead of explaining why he neglects prior information from others or apologizing for wrong assumptions or his missguided and borderline racist comment about rupees/rubies, he just keeps asking stupid questions.
I'm starting to think Swordless might be right.
Maybe he is just a troll.
Well that didn't take long. Welcome to the dark side. ;D
Can you guys find another place to talk about this drama? Nobody cares. Private messages are great at private stuff. Please stop making people avoid this thread, nobody wants to get on here to read about how stupid people think someone else is, we'd go back to highschool for that if we wanted. If you're going to ignore him, do so. Telling everyone, "I'm gonna ignore him!" is missing the point. Ignore him because you want to, not to gain approval from others in some dick-waving competition.
That's all I have to say as a lurker who's getting turned off by it, and I'm sure there are others who aren't speaking up. If you disagree with it that's fine; but message me in private. We can find ways to talk about this elsewhere.
OK, lemme see if I understand this, and hopefully you can correct me if I'm mistaken on anything.
When you wrong warp into an area without a "cutscene entrance table", some sort of attempt is made to load or play (or something) the last cutscene that you watched (and this can sometimes affect your position, the camera, whether or not you have control, whether or not you respawn in the area you warped to or the area you set FW, or maybe have some other weird effects).
Your warp position should always be set to the coords of Farore's Wind, but the cutscene can manipulate your coordinates afterwards.
Whether or not the game crashes depends on whether or not that cutscene's data is overwritten in the process of reaching the warp. You can control this by having previously watched a different cutscene or maybe taking a different route to the boss room. Why are the results sometimes different (say, savewarping after blowing up the wall and then doing DC WW) as child or adult?
There's also the possibility that it's impossible to keep the cutscene in memory. DC Boss room overwrites the intro, so I'm rather stumped about this.
When you wrong warp into an area with a cutscene entrance table... , an attempt is made to play that area's cutscene ... If no cutscene in that area has the same "value" (IDK what to call this) as the cutscene that would normally play after the blue warp that you used, you get a crash. This crash can be averted by setting FW at the first (usually the main?) entrance to a scene, since the cutscene data will be loaded normally so there is no danger of overwriting the data somehow. It is not possible to set FW at the first entrance and not WW to that same area?
Not quite right. The "value" I believe you are referring to is called the stage value in the debug rom. Wrong warping from Deku/DC sets this to FF01 (01) and Fire sets it to FF03 (03). It works like this...
We have here a table of all significant entrance indexes, and one that should make everything a thousand times clearer. If you look at Temple of Time entrance 0 (entrance index 0053), you'll see that the cutscene entrances follow immediately after it. If you wrong warp with an entrance index of 0053 stored in FW and a stage value of FF01 (stage 01), you end up with a "real" entrance index of 58 (Cutscene 01), but more importantly, the cutscene pointer is updated, and the cutscene data is re-loaded into memory, meaning that wrong warping with a FW point at the entrance to the Temple of Time should never crash, and never actually "wrong warp".
Now if we have a situation where the stage value is "bad", we end up wrong warping and using the last cutscene data and we have to worry about overwriting the old cutscene and whatnot.
However, I've observed a third situation that can occur, and that's when we wrong warp when the entrance index is not the 0th entrance to a scene with cutscene entrances. This is what I was talking about with the Light Arrow cutscene wrong warp. This has an entrance index of 058C, and following it there are no cutscenes of any sort listed.
If you wrong warp with 058C stored in Farore's Wind, a stage value of FF01, the cutscene pointer is updated to point at where cutscene 01 should be loaded in ram, but the cutscene data is not refreshed (unless it's doing something screwy that I'm unaware of). In this situation, we can't change what cutscene plays, so we have to make sure that the particular cutscene ends up playing. In this situation the only way to reload the cutscene data is to return back to the scene (and in some cases the map) that it is associated with.
If the data for the cutscene in that area is overwritten on the way to the warp, you get a crash
In theory it could be possible to load a corrupt cutscene, but it would require some insane luck to find a setup that doesn't crash or hang or take four years to play, or cause you to fall OoB indefinitely. But it doesn't hurt to look.
Regardless of whether or not an area has a cutscene entrance table, you can get crashes by attempting to warp into an invalid scene, or setting FW in a map in a scene for which the scene you try to warp into has no corresponding map. Do I understand this right? Anything I've missed?
Barinade's room has a map value of 01, but can be warped to without crashing with a map value of 00 set. Is there a map 00 for Barinade's room?
So the only way to avoid having to leave an reenter ToT is to warp to the graveyard instead of going through HF and I'm assuming that that's way slower? For one thing you'd have to spend a few seconds getting a 2nd bottle to keep bugs to RBA the Saw with, and I'm not sure you'd have anything to OI with without having to go to the castle.
Entering Kak overwrites the end credits cutscene the moment you enter it... but when I tested this I'm almost certain I did so during the day...
All boss rooms have a dummy version of the pre-boss room as room 00 (much as all dungeons have a dummy version of the boss room). Given that they also all have loading zones that lead back to the dungeon, I'm guessing boss doors used to be 2-way.
That makes sense. DT/DC do have working doors back to the dungeon, and I know for sure that Fire Temple has an entrance next to the fire temple boss door as well.
That would mean that there would also be a map for the low poly boss room as well, would there not?
OK, thanks for the explanation. Just a couple more questions and then I'm done.
If you're not warping into a cutscene, should the same prior cutscenes have about the same effects when used in combination with the same blue warp, as long as you take the same route from the cutscene to the warp? Or I guess, the area you warp to could end up overwritting the cutscene as well?
And still no explanation for why there are differences when WWing as an adult or WWing as a child? I had a weird theory that the title screen crashes as child b/c it has Link on Epona but that's just a wild guess. It's probably wrong because it seems like we need to explain why it works as adult, not why it doesn't work as child.
What would it take to get WW to a point where you could know beforehand whether or not a particular WW will work? What else might possibly be factors?
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3573)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
I unlocked this thread. Why was it locked in the first place? I don't know. Sorry it took so long to fix this.
Should the other OoT thread be merged into this one? I haven't followed the two threads enough to know if it is the same discussion, or perhaps something different deserving of a 2nd thread (if so it needs to be renamed)?
OK, thanks for the explanation. Just a couple more questions and then I'm done.
If you're not warping into a cutscene, should the same prior cutscenes have about the same effects when used in combination with the same blue warp, as long as you take the same route from the cutscene to the warp? Or I guess, the area you warp to could end up overwritting the cutscene as well?
I believe the area you warp to can overwrite the cutscene, but I can't remember a test that proved that for certain. This will be much easier to prove for Child warps because the game queues the FW warp until after the screen fades away, meaning there is only one virtual frame to test. Adult warps are considerably different, as there appears to be a single "static" warp time then a number of different windows timings that change depending on an unknown number of factors.
And still no explanation for why there are differences when WWing as an adult or WWing as a child? I had a weird theory that the title screen crashes as child b/c it has Link on Epona but that's just a wild guess. It's probably wrong because it seems like we need to explain why it works as adult, not why it doesn't work as child.
I haven't observed a definitive difference between WWing as an adult vs as a child, so I can't really provide an explanation.
What would it take to get WW to a point where you could know beforehand whether or not a particular WW will work? What else might possibly be factors?
A considerable amount of effort. According to a cutscene extractor I found on The GCN, there are about 70+ cutscenes. A good chunk of them are probably inaccessible for wrong warping, so that narrows it down to about probably 40-50 cutscenes which means about 40-50 unique cutscene pointers. Each cutscene is probably a couple hundred bytes long, so you'd have to analyse a considerably large block of ram for each. Then take into account that there are approximately 100 scenes which each load data into different blocks of ram, and may or may not actually load scenes into the same spot(s) each time. So you'd have check some 40-50 different blocks of ram somehow to see if the cutscene data becomes corrupt, then you have to consider the possibility that cutscene corruption may not actually guarantee a crash, then you have to consider the hundreds/thousands of different combinations of scenes you could/would want to travel through and so on.
There are so many possibilities that can happen because the cutscene pointer is pointing to ram that is "free" for re-use, and so many things I'm not entirely sure about the Zelda 64 engine. So I predict that there won't be a way to determine if all wrong warps will work/can be made to work because of the sheer number of variables.
And that's without considering the fairly likely possibility that there may exist some version specific differences. I seriously doubt that the cutscene pointers will end up pointing to the same locations across every version of the game.
That said, if you were to ask "Given a particular FW entrance, can we warp here with some method and keep control afterwards?", I'd say that probably that 80-90% of all wrong warps of this type are known.
Can I request that a TAS category that involves 'WWing' is separate from Bloobedia's "any-%" or Swordless Link's "all-dungeons" run, because while WWing is rather technically impressive, it's not actually entertaining to watch. Runs using WWing should be published (due to them being technically impressive), but in its own separate category solely for Wrong-Warping, so as to not obsolete other types of runs.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
It won't be seperated from the any% run that's currently up on the site, the wrong warping to skip Ganon will be the new category. They are both very similar already and the wrong warping will only be used once. There's no reason to have two different categories for that.
Oh, if it'd be used once, that'd be fine. I was worried about an entire TAS based around WWing all across the globe to "complete" all dungeons before WWing to the ending.
It won't be seperated from the any% run that's currently up on the site, the wrong warping to skip Ganon will be the new category. They are both very similar already and the wrong warping will only be used once. There's no reason to have two different categories for that.
Do you know this for sure, has TASvideos made an official ruling on this? I'd be surprised if it was ruled that way, it would be first time a glitch which skipped to the end credits wasn't considered extreme enough to warrant it's own category.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
It's also the first game in which skipping to the credits is only a few minutes faster than not skipping to them. Not to mention we already skipped 90% of the game.
For once I actually agree with mr Waffle, but considering the majority of ppl here (including swordless and Grunz if I remember correctly) wants it to replace bloobs TAS I suspect that this is indeed what will happend
Having anything faster than any% is bullshit anyway. Any% means ending the game as fast as possible, regardless of anything else.
If you want special categorys, the slower runs have to be in them, not the fastest.
I think that skipping directly to the credits should usually warrant a new category, but I'd make an exception here. Reasons bieng that RBA is already somewhat of a memory corruption technique and WWing doesn't really make the run that much shorter. I'd be of a different opinion if Young Link could just warp straight to the credits somehow.
