Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Is the state of the reset switch of a console even sampled based on frames? My understanding was that it physically caused the reset to take place, and was not handled in the actual software. What controls outside of the controllers are acceptable?
Has never colored a dinosaur.
Joined: 5/2/2009
Posts: 656
I always imagined the reset was a input, being an actual button in a console, like the pause button on the master system. for me, disc removal funcions like cartdrige tiltling.
My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =) (ノಥ益ಥ)ノ
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
The thing is, no specific rule is going to cover weird exceptions like this. Once again, I think we have to stop worrying about coming up with EXACT SPECIFICATIONS which will cover EVERY TAS EVER. I know Warp would love to have a perfect rule template by which could be evenly applied to make judging a more binary, and less amorphous criteria. (Heck, I think that is 90% of the reason he comes to the site) However, this is just not possible. Video games are just bits of programming, and getting to the "End" of one isn't always easily defined - much less what counts as valid way to get there. Additionally, that really isn't the way this site works. I think something as out-of-the-ordinary as disc swapping for any reason needs to be examined on a case-by-case basis. Required by the game to complete it? Duh. Doing it to create some crazy glitched state that allows you to complete a 4 hr game in 5 minutes? Probably - that sounds awesome. In this specific case, to skip FMVs, possibly one of the more entertaining parts of a run? I'd vote meh, and certainly not accept a run that only improved on the current one by skipping them using this technique. Generally speaking, optimizing a run is about finding crazy ways to improve the gameplay. Granted, Majora's Mask players have found in game ways to skip cut-scenes. However, there is no question of legitimacy there. A psuedo-legitimate trick to skip FMVs? I'm against it.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
DarkKobold wrote:
(Heck, I think that is 90% of the reason he comes to the site)
*sigh* Admins make belittling comments just because I like to express my opinion, and it's just supposed to be a "persecution complex". It's all in my head. Right. I think an attitude revision would be in place. I'm entitled to express my opinions without having an admin belittling me because of that. If you don't value my opinion then just ignore it. Making a public jab at me is going too far.
Joined: 7/25/2007
Posts: 109
So here's the way I see it. All points considered in this topic, I think we can best compare this to, believe it or not, save data corruption. When you corrupt save data, what you're effectively doing is interrupting the game's access to the save file partway through the process, generating bad data. With an FMV swap, you're interrupting access to the disc partway through the process, generating bad data. User "rog" brought up a good point: that depending on the game, its programming will respond to the swap differently. Not every game responds as favorably as FF9 does to disc swapping. I know it works in most cases in FF7, allowing you to sub in a shorter one (with a few freezes in certain situations), but in others it'll just lock up. With this in mind, and with DarkKobold's idea that it could potentially be used in interesting and impressive ways to destroy games in ways we only thought possible in the early console days, I'd say the best thing to do is not deny ourselves of that possibility. But when it comes to FMV skipping, I guess we can compare it to the other controversial debate right now - effectively a way to cut time off an already long run, but not something that should be depended upon alone for saving time. Saying "but we can make an encode that skips the FMVs themselves" isn't really productive/the same for many reasons. In short, I'd say allow disc swapping mid-game at unintended points, and add a tag to such runs that says the run does as such. In the event of severe corruption via disc swapping, it'd be a different category. With that in mind, the only issue left is which discs can be swapped in. The best thing to do there IMO is only allow discs belonging to the game itself, as well as a lack of a disc. Otherwise, a run that could switch in an altered disc that just tells the game to trigger the ending or something would technically be allowed. On other notes, a scratched disc would be best compared to a bad ROM, and thus would be out of the question. Crooked cartridge is a whole different beast, but really isn't comparable to either of these. At best guess, I would say it's like temporarily denying access to certain parts of the program, forcing what's left of it to deal with the situations at hand. Basically like RAM corruption and/or temporary ROM corruption. It's a whole different debate, whatever the case.
Joined: 3/7/2006
Posts: 720
Location: UK
I'm aware disc reading affects gameplay. Almost every input you can do affects gameplay. I said it isn't gameplay. To be honest I think it is a good idea to just say "opening the disc tray makes this TAS more entertaining, but not this one".
Voted NO for NO reason
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Warp wrote:
DarkKobold wrote:
(Heck, I think that is 90% of the reason he comes to the site)
*sigh* Admins make belittling comments just because I like to express my opinion, and it's just supposed to be a "persecution complex". It's all in my head. Right. I think an attitude revision would be in place. I'm entitled to express my opinions without having an admin belittling me because of that. If you don't value my opinion then just ignore it. Making a public jab at me is going too far.
How is that comment belittling? It is an observation that you appear more interested in the how a run applies to the rules than the actual content of the run. I fail to see the insult there. You do latch on to the threads that discuss rules. You do not tend to comment or ... hell, even watch runs, as far as I can tell. Observing that, and stating that observation is not an attack on your character. If you honestly believe that comment is belittling, I feel sorry for you.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
DarkKobold wrote:
How is that comment belittling? It is an observation that you appear more interested in the how a run applies to the rules than the actual content of the run. I fail to see the insult there. You do latch on to the threads that discuss rules. You do not tend to comment or ... hell, even watch runs, as far as I can tell. Observing that, and stating that observation is not an attack on your character.
You wrote it in such a way that it sounded like you were saying "he only comes here for rules lawyering", giving the impression that I'm pedantic and nitpicky. Even if that were so, it's not the place for an admin to be commenting on a visitor using such a demeaning attitude. If that's not what you meant, you worded your text poorly. In fact, I don't see anything in your response that corrects my impression. On the contrary, this only seems to confirm it:
If you honestly believe that comment is belittling, I feel sorry for you.
Rather than saying something like "I didn't mean it like that" you end up saying "I feel sorry for you". If that's not belittling and demeaning, then I don't know what is. I really think you should revise your attitude. If you don't appreciate my opinions then just ignore them rather than making such public demeaning comments. (Or at the very least learn to express yourself more clearly.) For the record, I don't come here for rules lawyering. I come here because of the community. I like reading people's posts and I like writing to others. I like the interaction with the community. (I'm waiting for you to now accuse me of derailing the topic, as if you were completely innocent and had absolutely nothing to do with it.)
ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
Warp, you’re insane just saying
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
ALAKTORN wrote:
Warp, you’re insane
But of course. (I just love how people are free to hurl insults here with impunity.)
Noxxa
They/Them
Moderator, Expert player (4107)
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4089
Location: The Netherlands
ALAKTORN wrote:
Warp, you’re insane just saying
Yeah, Warp most definitely has a persecution complex, and there's really nothing. No random baseless insults thrown around at him or anything. Note for anyone whose sarcasm detector is broken: HEAVY sarcasm here
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
RachelB
She/Her
Player (129)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
While i think DarkKobold's initial comment was clearly a joke, and not intended to insult, i have to agree with warp on
Rather than saying something like "I didn't mean it like that" you end up saying "I feel sorry for you". If that's not belittling and demeaning, then I don't know what is. I really think you should revise your attitude. If you don't appreciate my opinions then just ignore them rather than making such public demeaning comments. (Or at the very least learn to express yourself more clearly.)
If you accidentally hurt someone, and they get upset by it, the appropriate thing to do is usually to apologize, and explain that you did not intend to. Insulting them for getting upset over a misunderstanding/accident is incredibly rude.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Mothrayas wrote:
Yeah, Warp most definitely has a persecution complex, and there's really nothing. No random baseless insults thrown around at him or anything. Note for anyone whose sarcasm detector is broken: HEAVY sarcasm here
rog wrote:
If you accidentally hurt someone, and they get upset by it, the appropriate thing to do is usually to apologize, and explain that you did not intend to. Insulting them for getting upset over a misunderstanding/accident is incredibly rude.
Thanks for the support. I apologize for having caused so many posts not related to the topic at hand, and perhaps I do often take negative comments on my person (either perceived or real) way too seriously, but I do think that if I express my completely on-topic opinion on a subject, it's not appropriate from the part of an admin to make belittling comments on how commenting on site policy is "90% of the reason" I come to the site. If the comment was not meant to be belittling nor demeaning, a simple "I didn't mean it like that, it was not my intention to sound belittling" would have sufficed, rather than "I feel sorry for you because you don't understand what I write".
ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
Warp wrote:
(I just love how people are free to hurl insults here with impunity.)
>insane >insult oic