Post subject: When to save a state?
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Yup, how do TASers use slots in their daily work? I mean, how you guess that you need to make a savestate & how you decide to which slot to save? I've never TASed normal way, only with tasedit, so this was interesting me for all the time. Detailed answers (with examples maybe) are appreciated.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Noxxa
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Personally, I reserve the first few slots for various points throughout the progress - say, every few stages I save a savestate at the beginning of a stage. For example, I end up with slot 0 - start of stage 1, slot 1 - stage 3, slot 2 - stage 5, etc. If too many slots become filled, I relocate the savestates and repeat. The remaining slots (5-9) I use for conventional TASing. Slot 5 is the start of the stage, and slot 6 is the start of an important event - e.g. a (mini)boss battle - and the rest of the slots gradually move closer towards the final framecount, and are by far used the most. If ever all 'final' slots (7-9) are beyond a point that needs to be changed, I load slot 6 and play/turbo (if necessary) until I reach the part that needs fixing. As for when to make a savestate, there are several points at which to make a savestate. After enough TASing it feels pretty much natural to me, so it can be a bit hard to explain. Basically, I do it: -just before luck manipulating -a few frames before, say, shooting at the correct frame on something (e.g. so it hits right when a boss's invincibility ends) -right after shooting said shot -whenever advancing forward properly and optimally -other cases which just feel natural to me after TASing for long enough And many more game-specific situations which are numerous and specific - too much to list. (Think of something like right before ending a dash in MMX3, so I can dashjump at the optimal frame, and many other cases).
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Editor, Skilled player (1440)
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I generally plonk down 4 saves like every frame or so. Generally, slots 1 and 2 are for the frame I'm currently at, slots 3 and 4 are for every major achievement. (Note that so much as making a simple jump can be a major achievement), you should also have a slot for the level you start or some other place where you know you can't screw up if you load that save. I typically reserve the last slots for possible outcomes trying out different things (route choices, etc.) ...maybe that's why my only publications are made with openMSX, where I don't use savestates. Anyway, I'm very curious to hear how other people do it as well
Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I save the time position on every frame I'm completely satisfied with. If I ever see that something is going to go wrong, I redub (aka rerecord). I only need (and can only store) 1 saved time point. (Worms Armageddon doesn't save the state. It just redubs the entire input to a new replay on each "load" and runs as fast as it can until the saved point, at which point it pauses. This ends up being nearly instant anyway.) With Worms Armageddon's tools with trajectory mapping while roping, this is a successful strategy since I can see what will happen in the future if I continue on my current path until the next corner. I'm not sure how it would be with console TASing, but I'm sure with the right tools (like jump trajectory mapping) implemented via lua scripts etc, the strategy would be the same. If I ever have a mistake before my saved time point, I have to manually run the replay through again and advance to the point I want to take control again. This isn't very common though.
Tompa
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I'm really bad at using save states properly... I always end up where I want to go just a little bit earlier in the movie, only to discover that I haven't got any earlier save states. I need to work on that. Generally, I'm using slot 1 and 2 for the main progress and slot 10 for the "best version". 8 and 9 are used for comparision points before the "best version". The rest are basically just spread out randomly. I often use some of them as I do with 8 and 9, but I can never remember which one of the states I used, so I'm just overwriting them as I go. When I've reach a section where I think I don't need to go back, I basically use "all" save states there. Sometimes I'm just saving like slot 1-6 at once three-four times in a row without anything inbetween, for some weird reason. Which then results in me having no early states so I have to replay the whole movie over again. I'm so dumb.
ALAKTORN
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I always use them in sequence, I can end up with over 40 savestates used for a few minutes of TASing :D
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I generally TAS without using save states... wait, what?
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I tend to use state 1 for major points, such as the beginning of a run or the beginning of a level when I'm sure that I won't need to go back and change anything. States 2 and 3 tend to be used for checkpoints within a level. States 4 through 9 are the workhorses, and get me through all the trial-and-error stuff. State 0 usually holds my best result, and anything that beats it becomes the new State 0 until it can't be improved any further. If it was up to me, emulators would have multiple banks of ten savestate slots each that could be swapped, kind of like the "pages" in those old PS1 multiple memory cards. I always find ten to be far too limiting when exploring different approaches.
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I use all savestate slots and only switch to the next slot or the previous slot, so I never use the numeric keys to pick a specific slot. This way I don't need to waste brain resources for remembering what's saved in any given slot. I progress to the next slot whenever I feel satisfied and return to the previous state, if the current state is not good. In a hard section of a game, it is possible that my oldest state and newest state are only a few seconds apart. If at any point I need to go back more than 9 states, it is probably a good time to wake up, backup and playback from the beginning (of the level). I also never use any hotkey that requires holding shift, because it is too slow. When ASD are the common buttons in the game, it is natural to have save-current-state at F and load-current-state at E. Even though F and E are close to each other, I have never messed up with them while saving or loading. It helps to have nothing assigned to G or H, so that I don't need to jump over F. So, some of my common keys in Gens are configured like this: ______[F6] [F7] QWERTY _ABCF __XYZVBN ___[space=fastforward] [ctrl=pause]
Tompa wrote:
Sometimes I'm just saving like slot 1-6 at once three-four times in a row without anything inbetween, for some weird reason.
Something like this happens to me too. Maybe it's because I unconsciously want to get rid of the older savestates.
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Thank you so much, men! If any other members are going to share their common usage of savestates, I can make some summarizing page for newbies in TASing & link it somewhere on wiki. I was always afraid how can I remember what I have saved on each slot & use them properly, and I've not tried yet, that's kind of phobia lol.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Clearly you need to take pointers from AngerFist when it comes to using savestates: one savestate to do everything. I usually reserve the first 2-4 slots for stage beginnings, ie. start of first stagex3, then after I beat it, update it to be start of first stage, start of second stagex2. 5-6 are midpoints of some variety, 7-10 are high usage slots, with 7 being the start of something, and 8-10 being optimising that something.
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I wouldn't have expected that for most people, the heavy-duty savestates, so to speak, are on the right side of the row. Maybe it's because I like to map my button combination around A and S, but I have a far easier time reaching the left side, which is why I use those keys most.
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What I've been doing for my run is: #1: start of section #2 - #9: used sequentially #0: end of my current fastest attempt of the section I find this method useful for optimizing sections by iterating through various different frame timings at different intervals. The last state saves me the hassle of reproducing my best input for the section if I ended up doing a bunch of slower attempts after it. Note that when I retry a section I go back to using state #2, meaning that the later states (~7-9) tend to get much less usage. If I want to go back to an earlier point in the run I usually just replay the movie file from the start.
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Primary savestate (I use this all the time) is key 'W', close to the controls. Secondary savestate is key 'F2' or 'F3'. I only use this when I want to view the part in read mode, or I need to change a part that occurs before the primary savestate. All other savestates (which are on the function keys) are only used to view parts of the run in read mode, or to go back before the secondary savestate. Some of them might be used for other movies on the same game. Usage is approximately exponential to savestate priority. The primary savestate key is the second-most-used TAS key (second to frame advance). The secondary savestate key is used not as much. All other savestate keys for the movie are used rarely, and savestate keys not for the movie almost never see any use, if I haven't even forgotten about them.
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I haven't read any of these, and I'm posting anyway! 1 for the beginning of a stage or significant segment. 2-4 For various checkpoints along the way. 7-0 get used for experimentation, usually 7, 8, and 0; 9 often gets shafted. 5 & 6 are, for whatever reason, very rarely used for anything.
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I savestate about every 50 frames and in the beginning and the end of a level or sequence with the slots 1 2 and 3.
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I use state #1 all the time, and #0 for testing. State #2 is about half-way through a level/battle/whatever, and state #3 is whenever I remember it. Also, I hate using the F# keys for savestates. I use Shift+1-0 for save, and Ctrl+1-0 for load - that way, I don't ever accidently load when I want to save or vice-versa. Also, Z-N for buttons/Start-select, period for frame advance. Ctrl+T for read-only toggle.
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I use \ for frame advance, and I use the numpad to save state and then ctrl+number to load state. The amount of states I use depends on hat I tas. If I TAS a platform game, I'll only use about 4 states, for luck manip, 8 states, etc.
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I use: "\" for frame advance "Shift + F1" to "Shift + F9" for saving states "F1" to "F9" for loading states I always savestate on each frame with the F1 to F9 keys. Everytime I'm approaching an action sequence, I savestate on the 9 frames that a button would need to be press.
Jungon
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I'm using: "," and "." for quicksave and quickload .. 0..9 save states. (with Master of Darkness I happened to learn something that I read here too: keep a save state before any important event) IJKL is my directional.. Del, End, Pgdn, the action buttons (I need to use the left hand for directional) =P And my frame advance button is currently ";" ... a little close to the load button, intentionally, as I redo a lot of what was already good to see if it can get better.. xP F8 is the pause, and I was having confusions when F7 was frame advance, ... tried spacebar too, bad idea... x_x And.. I use screen transitions to compare numbers of frames in videos.. Dega has this problem that the number shows green, it's hard to differ 3, 8, 6, 9 in this color.. unless the background is black .. XD
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Save states are managed as you feel like it... That's what I came up with. -I start a level: save state 1. -I come up and make a part of the level as I'm satisfied with, but don't want to redo it always, savestate 2. -I continue the stage, make some more stuff, savestate 3. -I finish the stage, start another one, savestate 4. When I reach the last savestate, 8 or 10 depending on your emulator, I restart on savestate 1, no matter what I'm doing or anything. At all, I'm just not managing my savestates at all lol. I just go for a savestate whenever I feel like it, and I use them in generic order, that is all.
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adelikat
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Here's my savestate management logic: Slot 1: always at the beginning or slightly before a level / segment. This one is always well before any of the stuff I'm TASing so I always have a way to rewind Slot 2: the beginning of a small mini-segment I might be doing; from one solid reliable measuring point to the next (these segements can often be very small like 1 enemy or a difficult maneuver) Slots 3-7: various logical checkpoints along the way from one measuring point to another Slot 8: this is always the "best so far" savestate for whatever segment I'm working on. I get to the checkpoint and save to this slot. Then I redo the segment. If what I do is faster I put that in Slot 8, else I try again. Until I'm done exhausting all ideas I have. Then slot 8 becomes the beginning of the next segment and do it all over again. Slot 9: This is the best so far for a larger scope such as an entire level, or just a general DON'T TOUCH savestate that might be something important. I rarely use this one. Slot 0: This is my default savestate and most frequently used. This what I use pretty much every few frames. When I get to a logical place that I might want to consistently rewind to, I save to 2-7, so slot 0 is often more of a throw away / temp storage) My segment are generally just (often arbitrary) logical checkpoint that are reliable indicators of progress. Like maybe after having to make a series of intricate jumps upwards, I have a checkpoint that is X position = 240 that is a number of pixels once I'm on horizontal ground. Or maybe when the boss HP = 0, or a black screen after a fadeout. It would be a place where there are no conditional factors that could affect measurements so comparing framecounts of different attempts is reliable. Generally Slot 2 is the beginning of a segment and Slot 8 is the end. Of course these are ideal circumstances. I don't have a methodical personality so I have mixed results as to what I really do.
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AnS
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Bump. Since feos asked me to translate my post to English, I'll expand it a bit. While this thread is about personal preferences in distributing 10 slots, I think that specific scheme is irrelevant to effective TASing. It's more important to learn mindless juggling with savestates. Not just use them often, but do it more often than common sense suggests. No excuse is needed to save or load a savestate. The ultimate goal is to move savestating to motor memory and release brain for more diverse stuff like analysing game. When you successfully moved savestating into motor memory, you'll subsonsciently assign your own priorities to each of 10 slots (e.g. the easiest key to reach will become your most important slot, but you don't need to think about it, it should appear naturally). I like to compare "savestates juggling" to how experienced pianist plays music - he doesn't need any time to decide which key to press, and he often performs a coordinated sequence of presses (saving/loading many slots in a split second), without really planning it ahead. When you use only one savestate slot and save/load occasionally, this would be the same as playing piano with one finger. I noticed some newbies use rerecords as rarely as in casual retrogaming, which doesn't produce good TAS. From my old TASing experience I can remember entering flow state of mind and being able to do many save/loads within a second. Like this... ..Loaded the segment10, saved to1, advanced 4 frames, noticed possibility, savestate2, now Read-only, teleport to5, grasped set of buttons, jumped back to2, recorded some frames, saved to3, replayed from1, noted inconsistency, teleport to5, turbo to6, loaded5, loaded2, loaded5, loaded2, loaded5, recorded different set from 5 to 6, noted, restored6 by jumping to2, copy insight instead of buttons now, saved to2, noted success, saved to1, saved to9, loaded1, moving ahead!..
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I cyclically save save slots 1, 2, 3, ..., n, 1, 2, 3, ... n, etc... With no special significance. Exception: When redoing a run, I reserve slot 1 for the old run and use the other slots cyclically. Then when reaching end/start of level or otherwise important waypoint, I save named savestate and commit it to version control.
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This is all a very interesting read for a newbie like me, and gives me thought into how to better utilize save states. I use Joy-to-Key trickery so I can play with a controller and have access to saves and loads and other useful things (pause and frame advance) via extra buttons. So far, I've been using one state for everything, but perhaps it's time to remap things out so I can better utilize states.