I finished the route for Wily 1, but after some new insight into weapon refills, I'm now in the process going back through to strategically force and pick up weapon refill pellets. Ignore what I posted earler, here is my current understanding of weapon refill mechanics.
-Small pellets refill up to 2 pixels.
-Large pellets refill up to 8 pixels.
-The game freezes for 4 frames for every pixel of energy filled.
--This freeze stops all motion, explosions, projectiles, and the in-game timer.
-The RNG based timer continues through the freeze (as well as TASvideos timing)
-When the game resumes, Mega Man retains his velocity before the freeze.
Now it gets tricky. There's a special scenario that allows for time to be saved off the finish time.
-If the weapon refill pellet fills the top pixel, the freeze only lasts 1 frame during the time it fills that pixel.
This is true whether its the first pixel filled or the 8th. For example, if I've used 8 pixels of enery, and I pick up a large weapon refill pellet, the freeze will last 4 frames for each of the first 7 pixels, and then 1 frame for the last pixel. 4x7+1= 29 frame freeze.
Picking up the same large weapon refill pellet when it doesn't max out the bar, will result in the full 32 frame freeze.
So, in essence, everytime I top out a weapon's energy, I save 3 frames over refilling later when its low or empty. Granted, this is only true if I need to use the entire weapon energy bar by the time the game ends. But there are several weapons that won't have enough energy to last me through all 5 levels, so refilling them in this manner will be very beneficial.
3 frames may not seem like much, but I've been able to do this trick several times so far in the first level alone. So by the time the game ends, it will add up to a considerable chunk of optimization.
Great information. Thanks for that research will certianly benefit me when I get to needing energy.
When you say it freezes 1 frame for the last pixel, do you mean that if repeatedly obtaining small pellets when near-full it would make very small pauses and thus barely detract from overal viewing?
Exactly. In fact, they don't even need to be small pellets. If you use a single pixel of energy and then pick up any weapon refill pellet (large or small), the single frame freeze will be almost indiscernable when watched in full-speed.
In practice, however, I've found that most of the weapons that need to be refilled consume more than 1 pixel per use. While the trick can still be used, it will usually be noticeable.
Well, I just found out I can't use the Triple Blade glitch on the final form of Wily. Apparently the ONLY weapons that can hurt him are the Buster and Chill Spike. Disappointing, since now there's no way that using the W-tank will save enough real time to make up for the time it eats up in the menus. The in-game timer stops while in the menus, but I feel this game should aim for real time. Besides, using the W-tank would only shave a few seconds at most off the game timer (and add a few to the real time).
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
this debate has been going forever it seems :( Im not saying you, just lots of people bring this up.
It's easy to tell.
Megaman 10:
** Time attack: timer never ever stops for anything period except in that other pause menu with the options about retry, quit game, and whatever.
** Playing normal game mode: It DOES stop when in the weapon menu, and "outside" of normal game playing like the save screen, stage select, item shop.
All you have to do to confirm, is when playing the game normally, open the weapon menu on any level, just sit there for 5 or 10 minutes...then immiedately get a game over and save the game...you'll notice the timer only go up by 20 seconds or so. fastest way to test is commando man where you can quickly kill yourself off with the quicksand pits.
The full game timer also stops when you pick up health/weapon refills. Basically, anytime you don't have direct control over Mega Man, it stops.
Mega Man 9 works the exact same way (for both the time trials and full game).
The only thing that is different, is Mega Man 10 time trials. I don't know why they chose to change it, but I actually like it that way, since it penalizes weapon pick-ups.
The only thing that is different, is Mega Man 10 time trials. I don't know why they chose to change it, but I actually like it that way, since it penalizes weapon pick-ups.
they changed it so you can't abuse pausing anymore :)
abusing quick-pausing to have perfect reflexes is terribly gay and I hate everyone who does it
Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA
ALAKTORN wrote:
diggidoyo wrote:
The only thing that is different, is Mega Man 10 time trials. I don't know why they chose to change it, but I actually like it that way, since it penalizes weapon pick-ups.
they changed it so you can't abuse pausing anymore :)
abusing quick-pausing to have perfect reflexes is terribly gay and I hate everyone who does it
Yeah, I agree. Abusing glitches in games and essentially slowing the game down in order to have perfect reflexes is terrible. No one should ever, under any circumstances, do such a thing. It's a good thing you brought that point up in this community, where you will find a mass of support for your views.
On a more serious note, I really am impressed with what I've seen thus far on this run and can't wait to see a the full run.
"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..."
-Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)
The only thing that is different, is Mega Man 10 time trials. I don't know why they chose to change it, but I actually like it that way, since it penalizes weapon pick-ups.
they changed it so you can't abuse pausing anymore :)
abusing quick-pausing to have perfect reflexes is terribly gay and I hate everyone who does it
Yeah, I agree. Abusing glitches in games and essentially slowing the game down in order to have perfect reflexes is terrible. No one should ever, under any circumstances, do such a thing. It's a good thing you brought that point up in this community, where you will find a mass of support for your views.
Except that glitch/feature abuse sounds visually displeasing, what with entering the pause menu so often. Unless there is a playback function that removes it...
The same thing applies to attempting to get the best in-game time for a TAS of a game by entering the pause menu every other frame (or anything along those lines). The timer may say you did it super fast, but the amount of real time wasted to obtain that time ruins the entertainment.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
In Mega Man 10 on the console, pause abuse can be performed by simply using the main pause menu instead of the weapon select screen. The pause instantly stops the timer, and the screen fades away into the pause screen. When you continue, the screen fades back in before resuming. This means you're given snapshots of the game play in between your pauses. With practice, you can re-pause the game on the very next FRAME of gameplay. The replay will exclude these pauses, and near TAS times can be achieved.
I have to admit, I abused this quite a bit to take some leaderboard spots. I would definitely rather it not be abusable (timer continues in pause menu), but frankly, I'm surprised this tactic would get negative feedback from a TASing community. The way I see it, I'm simply using every option available to me, within the programmed confines of the game, to achieve the best possible time with the parameters the game designers chose. Granted, as blahmoomoo posted, my 1:41.23 Nitro Man time probably took 5-10 minutes to actually achieve, but the replay cuts out all the fluff and displays a rather attractive finished product. All the top 10 (and more) times for every level abuse pausing, so it's kind of a must to stay competitive. I do feel its kind of cheap, which is why I switched to full blown TASing this game instead of walking the slim line of pause abuse.
Hopefully MM11 fixes this issue for good but I LOVE the fact that they added replays (MM9 had no replay feature, which only made you speculate and wonder at the top times).
All right, I see how it works now, with the replay feature there. It's similar to creating a TAS by only using the pause button in an emulator. Of course, only using the pause feature in an emulator is frowned upon, since effectively using the frame-by-frame and save state features alone would make the quality far better.
But using the pause exploit to beat high scores is rather cheap, since the high scores are there for those who play in real time. Speedrunners, who make their runs in real time, would definitely frown upon this feature. And a speedrun != TAS.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Quality speed runners would have their runs verified in real time, and seeing the pause menu continuously pop up would be grounds for disqualification. The leaderboards for the time trials are actually pretty trivial at best. While it still hard as hell to make it to the top, it doesn't really show Mega Man 10 playing ability. The fastest real-time single segment so far is 23:31 (in-game timer), which I respect alot more than any of the leaderboard times.
And I wasn't suggesting speed running equals TAS. I was simply pointing out that the inherent slow down of pause abuse brings the category closer to a TAS than a true speedrun.
I didn't mean to say you implied that speedruns were the same as tool-assisted speedruns. I'm not 100% sure why I said that...
But yes, I agree that leaderboards mean nothing given the ability to abuse that feature, since it does end up being closer to a TAS.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
After almost 2 weeks, I finally finished Wily Stage 1. At 10029 frames, I finish this level in 2:47.15. This includes the ten weapon refill pellets I picked up, which is a big testament to the optimization present in this run. The same route run in the time trial, would skip the weapon refills, and finish in 2:45.65.
The hardest part about this level, was the fact that I everything thing I do could have potential consequences in the later levels. I had to study the other 4 Wily stages and figure out exactly how much of each weapon I need, and pick up only those amounts of refills. Any extra energy I pick up will result in wasted frames added on to the final time.
I also figure out how to encode in HD.
Link to video
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
oh mannnn i just knew 100% already that itd be possble to rush jet for elec man specifically, but i didnt have it my TAS because i never thought of the idea of jetting the bosses until i started on gemini man :(
And i just didnt feel like restarting even though it would of simply just took 30 minutes or longer, to do it.
Joined: 7/30/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Alefgard, USA
NICE work.
The refills were creatively picked up, and didn't take away from the flow of the movie at all.
I'm looking forward to seeing the next level (which has the best music in the game).
Thanks for all the support, guys.
kuja killer wrote:
i was also doing a Wily 2 TAS a few weeks ago, but i gave up and quit after the fight with the 2 birds, i was well over 1 full second past what rockmanda's run was, JUST literally after the birds fight, but it was impossible to get past one of those stupid crushing pillar things.
It's not random, it's time based,
you might figure a way to get through it maybe, without being forced to stop and wait once you get to wily 2 on this Full Run.
Wow, you definitely weren't kidding. I was also way ahead of Rockmanda after the refight with Suzak and Fenix, but I saw all of that savings eaten up when I had to wait for the crusher/pillar.
Here's the spot:
There's also a few other crushers that impede progress later in the level.
After alot of testing, I'm pretty sure I have their mechanics down.
-They are on 400 frame intervals. Every 400 frames they come down.
-They will only come down if they are in the visible screen. For instance, if it's supposed to come down on frame #400, and it comes into the screen at frame #0-399, it will come down on frame #400. However, if it shows up at frame #400-799, then it won't come down until frame #800 (the next 400 frame interval).
-This interval is unaffected by the RNG. This means killing enemies and picking up weapon refill pellets does not change it.
So, the second point means if you make sure you don't let it appear in the screen until the frame it's supposed to come down, then it will skip its current interval, and not come down for another 400 frames.
Unfortunately, the third point is what saddens me the most. In my optimized run, I need to wait 187 frames before exiting Suzak and Fenix to skip the crusher's interval. I can spread these 187 frames over the entire beginning of the level, and I was hoping that means I could essentially grab "free" weapon energy refills. But since it's not affected by RNG, any time I use grabbing a refill does not count towards this time. If I spend 50 frames refilling weapon energy, then the crusher's 400 frame interval will be moved 50 frames later. I have to find a way to actually waste 187 frames without detracting from the viewing experience (sitting for 3 seconds in one spot will look incredibly bad).
So I found a way to spend the required frames, and there's some silver lining. Since I need to waste 187 frames, this means I can play the beginning of the level sub-optimally. Meaning, using less weapon energy.
For example, The fastest way through Suzak and Fenix (the fire birds) uses 3 Commando Bombs, and 4 Rebound Strikers. An alternate strategy I found, is 72 frames slower, and uses only 2 Commando Bombs and the Buster. Since I don't need any Rebound Strikers, I can eliminate the weapon refill pellet I grab for it in Wily 1.
There are a few other areas I can use the buster as well to waste time, which means I no longer have to refill the Wheel Cutter, Rebound Striker, nor the Solar Blaze. And the Commando Bomb needs only 1 small pellet.
Time to redo Wily 1 :|
Does dying reset the RNG or that frame rule? I'm sure dying takes a lot longer than 187 frames and to do so would ruin many of your goals, but I'm just wondering.
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
yea yea that was defintely the 1st problem area in your shot, i may of been a tiny bit ahead. i dont quite remember exactly. only maybe 2 or 3 pixels that's all. near the very middle of the graphic but still never make it past it. well i dont remember, otherwise just precisly about where you were.
but huh, serious?? so able to bypass it actually then after such a specific time?? wow damn. but i understand what your saying. hmm
i rememer doing something like that during the birds, i was trying any sort of weapons possible that could reach the 1st bird on the left side of the screen. it's got 20 hp, everything would do 1 except commando, and rebound. would try jumping off rush jet to spam buster, but the bird was too high to reach so that didnt work. heh
The screenshot I posted is the absolute farthest you can get before being crushed. I know this for a fact, because entering that screen 1 frame earlier will cause the first pillar to come down. I've actually gotten to this screen 39 frames faster, which would easily bypass the entire the crusher. But since the first pillar comes down, I then had to wait for both pillars to go down and up to continue.
The 187 frame wait I mentioned, is the the frame I can leave Suzak and Fenix, and make it through the entire length of crushing pillars without stopping.
@Apothos
It might, but as you said, dying takes alot longer than 187 frames. Probably more than 1000 frames. Too many to make it worthwhile.
Alright, I went back and took out some of the weapon refills. This saved 22 frames, and brings final time for Wily stage 1 down to 2:46.78. Now to work on Wily 2.
There's also a few other crushers that impede progress later in the level.
After alot of testing, I'm pretty sure I have their mechanics down.
-They are on 400 frame intervals. Every 400 frames they come down.
-They will only come down if they are in the visible screen. For instance, if it's supposed to come down on frame #400, and it comes into the screen at frame #0-399, it will come down on frame #400. However, if it shows up at frame #400-799, then it won't come down until frame #800 (the next 400 frame interval).
-This interval is unaffected by the RNG. This means killing enemies and picking up weapon refill pellets does not change it.
So, the second point means if you make sure you don't let it appear in the screen until the frame it's supposed to come down, then it will skip its current interval, and not come down for another 400 frames.
Unfortunately, the third point is what saddens me the most. In my optimized run, I need to wait 187 frames before exiting Suzak and Fenix to skip the crusher's interval. I can spread these 187 frames over the entire beginning of the level, and I was hoping that means I could essentially grab "free" weapon energy refills. But since it's not affected by RNG, any time I use grabbing a refill does not count towards this time. If I spend 50 frames refilling weapon energy, then the crusher's 400 frame interval will be moved 50 frames later. I have to find a way to actually waste 187 frames without detracting from the viewing experience (sitting for 3 seconds in one spot will look incredibly bad).
