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Posted: 4/21/2011 1:02 PM
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kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
oh, and just for the record, about that spot with the flower, this whole thing i mentioned may also apply to this spot right here too. Well. probably not actually cause ground level is way too low after that final conveyor belt. :( Like being on rush jet, get to ceiling level so you cant go any higher, then jump off jet up the ladder, instead of wheel from the bottom when you jump over that 2nd lazer flower. prob might not be worth it cause you need the speed when falling onto that conveyor belt, and would cost some time to get on jet again. Ah well. damn. :( but this one could be considered too that may or may not work: --------- i was also doing a Wily 2 TAS a few weeks ago, but i gave up and quit after the fight with the 2 birds, i was well over 1 full second past what rockmanda's run was, JUST literally after the birds fight, but it was impossible to get past one of those stupid crushing pillar things. It's not random, it's time based, you might figure a way to get through it maybe, without being forced to stop and wait once you get to wily 2 on this Full Run. I know it's a bit off since your doing solar right now, just only saying
Posted: 4/21/2011 3:34 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
I remember watching Rockmanda's run of Wily 2 long ago when it was still generally believed to be done in real time. He comes to a complete stop at random locations for seemingly no reason. Now that we know he TAS'd those levels, its easy to see that was simple luck manipulation. I'll do what I can with the RNG, but I'm prepared to have to wait for at least some amount of time to ultimately end faster.
Posted: 4/21/2011 6:00 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Heh, wasn't as hard as I thought. 5 frames faster and I don't take damage. :) You'll have to wait for the WIP video to see.
Posted: 4/23/2011 6:46 AM
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kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
you mean waiting for the sunflower to shoot, and the pass it was faster than taking damage on rush jet ?? wow that's crazy. rush jet - no stopping or waiting...but time loss because of mm being pushed back from the hit damage. no rush - have to wait, the continue and edge jump to then conveyor belt without stopping. huh interesting. i cant use dolphin now for awhile since my comp just suddenly out of no where suffered a hard drive failure, so now im on a laptop for unknown time. :( (i was playing kirby 64 on the n64 emulator - mupen, when it just happened totally out of the blue.) this laptop has a stupid integrated graphic card making dolphin BSOD this thing. ugh. but the computer ran dolphin (any revision) 100% fine perfectly all the time...so i cant do any tests and experiments for awhile really sucks.
Posted: 4/25/2011 11:22 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Here's the final Robot Master, Solar Man! I manually timed this level and its only 1:34.9 which is a huge improvement over the old record. Had the route finalized last week but ran into a lot of trouble getting it to sync with the Dolphin. Glad I'm done, though. Now to tackle the Wily stages! Link to video
Posted: 4/26/2011 3:30 AM
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ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
wow, that was so awesome I don't feel like searching for improvements
Posted: 4/26/2011 5:14 AM
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kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
wow nice. alot more stuff not aware of being done and figured the plan about jetting that last vertical screen would work, just barly enough time for it, thats good. didnt think itd actually be totally possible to jump right over the very final sunflower, thought waiting was needed too like the one by the conveyor belt, huh wow. yup jet is defintely always helping more in alot of places rather than the wheel. :) -------- use my wily1 video while working on wily 1, rush jetting to get extra heigth during the NES boss fights is extremely important. and the rush coil for every single one of those static block layers throughout the level. ---- i know you DONT need to be told this, but well, man i feel like sooo "ughhh" not having this in my wily1 tas, because we weren't aware at the time about how rush jet can actually be much better then the wheel, so we didn't know...but now that we do, you'll be able to place these 2 changes in your run compared to mine. ....
Posted: 4/26/2011 7:37 AM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Yeah, your Wily 1 vid will definately help for most of the level but I will have to alter it a bit to account for the fact that I have to plan weapon usage through all 5 stages. For instance, using rush coil on the dissapearing blocks saves a single frame over a perfect jump, but if I have to refill the coil, I'll lose several frames for grabbing a refill. I know I'm going to have to force some weapon refills, at least. I haven't tested it all out yet, but I know weapon refills will be faster than using a W-tank. From what I've seen while playing the game in real-time, it seems the most efficient weapon refills (time/refill ratio) are the small ones. In fact, if there's only 1 (maybe 2) pixels of weapon energy used, it seems as though Mega Man makes no visible stop when he grabs the refill. Of course, once I break it down with tools, I'll find the true most efficient method of refilling weapons, and plan accordingly. I'm also prepared to use a W-tank after the refight with the 8 robot masters in Wily 4. This will allow me to use the invincibily glitch on all 3 Wily forms as well.
Posted: 4/26/2011 8:25 AM
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AngerFist
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
First edition TAS of 2015 Innovative TAS of 2007
This is really turning into something special. I am very proud of you and your work. Really good job and I hope this will be all over in a few weeks :)
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Posted: 4/26/2011 10:33 AM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Thanks AngerFist. But I don't realistically expect it to be submission ready until June. ::Edit:: Deleted. Thought I found an improvement but it turns out I miscalculated the wait for rush. Published run is still optomized.
Posted: 4/26/2011 2:10 PM
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dave_dfwm
Active player (253)
Joined: 7/30/2006
Posts: 207
Location: Alefgard, USA
This is great so far. My only fear is that the Wily stages won't be as entertaining since weapons management and conservation will become an issue and you won't be able to use as much variety in your attack. I forget - when using an M or W tank, does it take a long time to refill, or is it instant? Are you planning on buying some items before Wily?
Posted: 4/26/2011 2:22 PM
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scrimpeh
Editor, Skilled player (1439)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2108
TAS of 2017 First edition TAS of 2017 PSX TAS of 2017
I takes too long to refill, especially if you can just manipulate weapon drops instead. Anyway, great work so far, diggidoyo, can't wait till the run is finished.
Posted: 4/26/2011 2:50 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Thanks scrimpeh. I have over 100 screws, but I wont be going to the shop. I have a spare W-tank that I picked up in Chill Man's stage, and I'm only going to use it on the Triple Blade after the 8 robot master refights, since there's no oppurtunity to manipulate refill drops before the first two forms of Wily. Everything else I'll force small refills for. The tanks are not instant. The slowly fill up the energy bar, plus it takes extra time to enter/exit and scroll through the menu. I know I can't be as frugal, but I'll do my best to keep the action up.
Posted: 4/26/2011 4:13 PM
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kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
the M tank specifically, takes freaking foreverrrrr, because it only does 1 weapon at a time, and if all the weapons even just a little bit of them all not full, it would take literally 30 seconds. probably longer than that, just to use a M tank. i probably exagerated that a bit too high, but it does take a very long time to use it. SNES MM 7 was the only megaman game ever as far as i remember, that makes it fill ALL weapons at the same time, not one at a time. Would of been nice if that was done on mm10, but nope :(
Posted: 4/28/2011 10:37 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Did some testing on weapon refills. 1 pixel = 4 frames Doesn't matter if its a big or small refill, but small refills replenish 2 pixels and large ones replenish 8, so small refills look less distracting. However, the 1/4 ratio only works if the refill won't "top off" the energy bar. If there's only 1 pixel consumed, then grabbing a refill replenishes the pixel and only freezes Mega Man for ONE frame (so my theory was correct). This is obviously the most efficient way to refill weapon energy, but I probably wont be able to use it at all. Only the wheel cutter, triple blade, and chill spike consume one pixel when used. The first two I use more than once during the first Wily stage fight, and I have enough chill spikes to last through all 5 Wily stages. I'm keeping jet usage to a minimum for the moment, but becuase the weapon bar for rush jet is monitored on a subpixel level, the 1/1 refill ratio doesn't work. tl;dr: I'm going to force small weapon refills as needed in the later Wily levels.
Posted: 4/28/2011 10:43 PM
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scrimpeh
Editor, Skilled player (1439)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2108
TAS of 2017 First edition TAS of 2017 PSX TAS of 2017
I see. But what about acceleration? If you hit a refill, do you need to reaccelerate from zero speed? Is there any acceleration in the game to begin with?
Posted: 4/28/2011 10:48 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
There is acceleration, but refills freeze the gameplay and the in-game timer completely, so everything but the energy bar is unaffected (including the RNG).
Posted: 4/28/2011 11:16 PM
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kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
the major rush jet part will come from in the middle of wily 3, across that super long spike pit that's at least 3 screens long, where there's a teeter-totter thing. and jet needs to be used too on the first elevator riding part. so it's cruicial to not run out of jet while going over that extremely long spike pit, just saying (because of the 1st elevator) and any parts from the first 2 levels
Posted: 4/29/2011 5:15 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
I'll keep that in mind, but one nice thing about the Jet is I can jump on him, jump off and change weapons, and only have consumed a fraction of a pixel of energy. Kind of thinking (posting?) out loud, but here are some more notes on weapon refills. I wasn't expecting to force weapon refills until the later levels when I'm running low, but I found I actually CAN exploit the 1/1 refill trick. But only the Blade Shot can benefit from this, because of the fact that I need to have Blade Shot full when I start Wily 4. The best way to accomplish this, is to keep it topped off at all times. I didn't think this was necessary, but here's the logic: I use 3 pixels of Blade Shot energy during the first trio of bosses in Wily 1. After the fight I force a small refill, which replenishes 2 pixels for the price of an 8 frame freeze. Then, I force another small refill, and this time I receive the final pixel of energy to max out the energy bar, and pay only a single frame freeze! I save 3 frames every time I'm able to pull this off, but I don't know how often I'll have the opportunity to this. There are a lot of variables that would negate the benefit (needs at least 2 enemies after using an odd number of Blade shots before needing to fire another blade shot). Also, I was thinking about the W-tank I'm going to use to refill Blade Shot in Wily 4, and I had a half revelation/half duh moment. I was initially expecting to use it after I ran out of Blade energy, but I actually have to find out exactly how much energy I need to finish off the three Wily forms, and use the W-tank when I have used exactly that amount. This will top off the Blade Shot energy bar, giving me enough energy to last the rest of the game, and will keep the time spent waiting for the W-tank to its absolute minimum. If I used it when the energy is empty, the extra energy it fills will be unnecessary wasted frames (4 for every pixel). I wasn't expecting the refills to be so complicated!
Posted: 4/29/2011 5:25 PM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Have you tried hex editing the input file to see if the result synchronizes? If you can confirm this is possible you can probably go back and hex edit in a pause and use the W tank after the input for that section has already been completed. Why is it preferable to use a W tank over getting large refills? Going to the menu is time expensive.
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Posted: 4/29/2011 5:40 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
I don't think a hex edit will work, because without using the W-tank, the strategy is completely different. I would be using more of the weakness weapons (and probably be running out of energy and having to switch to buster) instead of alternating between weakness weapon and Blade. That's just with my knowledge of what hex editing does. I have never tried to hex edit. If I find an improvement, I've been doing it the old-fashioned way and starting from an earlier point to rerecord.
Posted: 4/29/2011 7:25 PM
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ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
movies are simple inputs, hexing is simply writing input instead of making it you keep saying "1 pixel" and the like, but I think the word you're searching for is "pellet", at least I've always called Megaman bars in pellets, not pixels I don't actually understand what your problem is, I already forgot what you wrote in that post actually… I'm too tired to focus
Posted: 4/29/2011 7:37 PM
(Edited: 4/29/2011 7:45 PM)
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Yea, I understand the concept, but I don't know how to open and edit the file. I'm not overly concerned with it at the moment, however. If I feel the need, I look into this. And as for my usage of the word "pixel", I know it clashes with our definition of the word for a unit of a picture, but I never really had a reason to name it anything, and then started calling it pixel ever since Capcom released Mega Man 9 with the following challenges: Survivor: Defeat one boss with only one pixel of energy left. Last Man Standing: Defeat all bosses with only one pixel of energy left. Mega Diet: Clear the game without picking up more than 8 energy pellets. Since its worded by Capcom, I registered that as the official name. Although, pellets are the official name for the health refills (possible the weapon refills, too), so I guess I should start calling them that.
Posted: 4/29/2011 7:43 PM
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ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
Capcom is dumb :P
Posted: 4/29/2011 11:15 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
kuja killer wrote:
I shoot just ONLY the football sprite that thing tosses out, the RNG changed. This time it gave me ring man instead of napalm, but it still ended with flame. have to start over. Instead i jumped over the football, and jump over the enemy as seen in my video, and then it gave me ring - flame - napalm ..allowing me to get a full jump into the pit. the whole process took about 5 hours.
After my own testing, I think I know what caused this. You shot only the football sprite, but that's not what changed the RNG. NOT killing the Red Cargou Q (basket enemy) is what changed the RNG. The second boss to appear is also affected by the RNG, and isn't determined until you kill the first one. I know this because I kill the same enemies you do in the first screen to bring out Electric Man. However, I managed to kill him 14 frames faster, and this made Wood Man appear next instead of Gemini Man. Despite the different order, I was still able to make it to the door in time to not lose any frames. For the second trio, it used to be the same as yours, but after going back and picking up a few weapon pellets (for reasons explained above), I now start with Flame Man. I'll still be able to get through the three of them in the same time, though. This also means that weapon pellets actually do affect the RNG. Not directly, but the frozen time spent picking them up doesn't stop the internal timer which RNG is based off of.
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