I am glad to see that my comment gathered such support. I was actually close to making such a comment back when abeshi's superior Zeldarun was being targetted with simular irrelevant critisism. Altough I realise most of you believe I was trolling, I am really not. If Micky & co were active english-speaking communitymembers here, which u had all interacted with related to the TAS-work they had done, there is no doubt in my mind that this whole debate would be non-existant. It's allright to be irritated that the work of your "TAS-friends" was surpassed. It's only natural. But try to refrain from the desperationsearch for irrelevant flaws. Accept the fact that they surpassed the previous run. If and when this run is surpassed then the authors of that new record can use the camera-angles of their choosing just like Micky & co used theirs.

lol. Feel free to make your conclusions man. It's obvious to me that you are mad because this run surpassed the old one. Trying to talk it down blaming the camera-angles of their choosing is pathetic. You have a good day sir.

If Micky & co were active english-speaking communitymembers here, which u had all interacted with related to the TAS-work they had done, there is no doubt in my mind that this whole debate would be non-existant.

I suppose that makes you either a troll or an idiot, depending on the sincerity of that comment.

Wow, okay guys. This is really not worth getting that worked up about. Nobody's gonna come over to your house and start throwing rocks at you, so you can let that fight-or-flight response go. Take a few deep breaths, calm down, and see if you can present your arguments without using loaded words and presumptuous statements, hey?

I couldn't agree with you more. Further, we should round up everyone that doesn't have a strong German rooted or German sounding name, take them out back, and shoot them.

Oh yes, I'm saved! And to say something about this submission, both sides have a valid point. I do agree more with the entertainment factor side, since entertainment is more important in my opinion.

I fully support Nach as my Führer and wish to work hard to prove my worth as a pure Aryan. We must start preparations to establish the Seventh Reich. May the Führer bring our race back to its days of glory and beyond!

This is most probably the best post on the forum ever. Also, I agree and fully support Nach as Führer of the entire planet.

Tool-assistance is trivially primarily about speed, or we wouldn't obsolete runs primarily based on time.

We don't.

Huh? Go pick random submissions and see why they were obsoleted: time, time, and time. How is the site, then, not primary about time?

I feel the need to post this link YET AGAIN, just to show that not all of our movies are about "time, time, and time." And regarding the racist remark: How completely dumb. A better argument would be that the current team is being less vocal than you (and a lot of other people) would like them to be, possibly due to a language barrier and cultural differences (i.e. deference to and respect of peoples opinions).

Oh wow im deeply disapointed you didnt include THIS in your link /trolling-complete

I skimmed through some of the discussion before posting here and would like to say that it would be a damn shame if the racist americans reject this japanese masterpiece.

This is where I draw the line. Please lock this thread or at least remove it from the IRC feed. If all this talk turns into racist remarks, then thats just going to discourage them even more.

I feel the need to post this link YET AGAIN, just to show that not all of our movies are about "time, time, and time." And regarding the racist remark: How completely dumb. A better argument would be that the current team is being less vocal than you (and a lot of other people) would like them to be, possibly due to a language barrier and cultural differences (i.e. deference to and respect of peoples opinions).

I used the word "primarily" for a reason, and already said we have other categories for other intentions aside from speed. Thanks for the link, though, I appreciate it. Perhaps I should rephrase my argument: most runs are made for speed; this is an implicit assumption we all make when we hear "new run", for example: we think it's faster. Yes, there are exceptions. No, this game isn't one of them. Unless a run was made explicitly to not aim for the fastest time (and would be a parallel submission to one that is, like N64 Super Smash Bros.), it should be obsoleted by a faster run. Use the objective measurement unless the submission category/intention is to be subjectively entertaining.

Oh wow im deeply disapointed you didnt include THIS in your link /trolling-complete

That's just the list I had compiled ~1 year ago, the last time this dumb argument came up. I'm sure yours is not the only movie I've left off the list since then :)

I skimmed through some of the discussion before posting here and would like to say that it would be a damn shame if the racist americans reject this japanese masterpiece. You are the worst user on the site.

So I've been a lurker on this site for... 3 years now? In all the TASes that I've watched- and I've seen almost all the new TASes since- I've been thoroughly entertained simply because of the fact that I was watching the fastest run of the game ever up to that point. the crazy movements and silly tricks than TASers do to make the video more entertaining are great, but what I think is the most important factor when deciding whether or not to publish a video to this site is speed. I'm sure that if many casual viewers saw the currently published run, they would definitely be entertained more than if they saw this, due to the camera angles making the run look more impressive. However, the casual viewer would not be as entertained if he knew he was watching "sm64 beaten in second fastest time but with more impressive camera angles!" and instead "group of five people beats sm64 in fastest time!" he would feel confused as to why he was not watching the fastest run. (Assuming the user browsed on this site for the currently published sm64 run). Ultimately, I think that the viewer knowing that he is beholding the fastest completion of his favorite childhood game possible stands as enough entertainment. My stance stance on the camera angles debate is that people who understand the game well won't mind the angles because they already know what is going on. Players completely new to the site will be dumbfounded at what is going on and would not notice the effects that the angles have on the entertainment value. However, for those few people who are on this often and follow the sm64 community will be annoyed that they want to see what is going on and cannot because of the camera angles. Ultimately, the amount of people that will end of watching this run will add up to more people enjoying or not minding the angles in the run and those who specifically detest it. (If you follow this little rubric) My vote is clearly a yes, but I can understand why a certain few people would choose to reject it in favor of the old one. However, despite the fact their opinions are legitimate and backed up with facts, I think the numbers will speak for themselves.

I skimmed through some of the discussion before posting here and would like to say that it would be a damn shame if the racist americans reject this japanese masterpiece. You are the worst user on the site.

You mad because I brought up abeshi? :D And now something constructive (non-racial) to the debate: People come here to watch the fastest possible way to finish games. Keeping the obsolete run would be like cheating the audience. EDIT: It seems the post above me tried to make the same point. I just removed the "I'm affraid to step on anyones feelings" part from his argument.

No, you're just an objectively bad user and everyone agrees with me.

You mad because I brought up abeshi? :D

Hes probably clarifying how fucking ignorant you are. Also:

People come here to watch the fastest possible way to finish games. Keeping the obsolete run would be like cheating the audience.

I know people are getting annoyed about me doing this, but I feel as though I have to recite this from the mission statement AGAIN: "Our runs may not be perfect (if that is even possible), but are still high quality and aim to be as entertaining as possible." In short, speed is not the only factor in a TAS. It may be fast, but it also has to be pleasing to look at. Fastest time is actually kinda subjective because of this. Think of the response that Front Line got. It may have been optimized, but it got rejected for being unentertaining.

Dude, calm down. Your asessment of my userstatus on this site (however farfetched) is irrelevant to the topic. Also posting an opinion and claiming it's objective and everyone agrees with you is just sad.

This thread has been Godwin'ed and now degraded into racism talk?? The useful conversation has obviously ran its course. I'm going to lock this for a day or so, so everybody can calm down and come to their senses. I'll have a verdict posted by the end of the weekend at the latest.

Alright, so it is time for verdict on this submission, and wow, where should I begin? This site is no stranger to controversial small improvements; especially on popular games. However, the biggest issue at hand here is that a majority of the audience felt it was less entertaining than the previous movie. The problem people had was camera angles obviously. Due to the small improvement (too small for the average user to even spot) many felt it was not worth the 3 frames for the loss of entertainment value. I went through the posts and by my count 16 people specifically said they liked the camera work of this run, 26 said they disliked it (with varying degrees of dislike), and 4 said they were more or less equal or undecided. This issue pushed the classic speed vs entertainment to the test and divided the community (once again) over this issue. As Warp pointed out, this site's primary goal is to provide entertaining movies, with basic record keeping as a secondary goal. I for one would like the site to do both equally well. The idea of our featured movie of a very popular game not being the "record" is upsetting to me. And I do feel that completion time is NOT an insignificant number. However, I can't ignore the fact that this site's success has been due to the fact that style matters. The underlying reason why "entertainment" is so important is simple. TASes should be impressive, and show mastery at the game. They should be in complete control of the game, as some kind of super perfect being. Such a being not only can beat the game as fast as possible but can play around, perform stunts, and dazzle the audience along the way, with ease. It is expected that authors do their best to dazzle the audience as much as possible while still achieving the fastest possible time. In the past we have rejected small improvements where the authors failed to stylistic choices into account (for example). It is important for everyone in this thread to realize and accept is the fact that we will continue to do so in the future if movies fail to live up to the generally high standards of the site. However, it is worth noting here that this isn't a case of apathy toward the entertainment value of a TAS. In fact it is quite the opposite. The authors took the sites goals at heart and sought to make a movie that was not only faster, but also more entertaining & innovate with its camera play. I respect and appreciate this. And on a technical level their camera work _is_ impressive and shows a lot of work. Unfortunately a significant part of the site's audience did not agree with their decisions. However, was it really that bad? There was at least some amount of hype, and mob mentality here. The camera issues were mentioned early in the discussion and most people (including me) probably watched in focused on this idea. Would I have noticed had it not already been pointed out? I opened this submission and the currently published movie side by side and watched & compared each segment. A fairly large portion of the camera work is roughly the same as the precedent movie. There were several moments where I didn't think this submission was as elegant, and at least one spot I thought this movie showed a better camera angle. The authors attempted to play around with camera, but there really wasn't too many places where it caused much distraction (to me). In summary, this movie is an impressive improvement, with attention towards stylistic choices, shows a mastery of the game, and takes the site values at heart. As such I am accepting as an improvement to the currently published movie. However, despite being accepted, I do hope the authors take into account the audience reaction to this movie, and attempt to do a movie with more "graceful" camera work (and hopefully scrape a few more frames of course ^_^). I want to be absolutely clear though that this is not a precedent setting decision. Try not to take this verdict as a sign that the site only cares about records and will publish any improvement. (Unfortunately no matter what I say some will take it as this). Our guidelines have not changed, nor the high expectations of our audience. Also, given the divided audience response here, this run will not automatically inherit the star of its predecessor. This run's star status should be discussed & debated on its own merits, in the proper thread.

*throws poop* Sorry, I just had to. I actually find this well judged. Nice work adelikat, and heartfelt congratulations to the authors. Keep the improvements (and other good work) coming!

I think it'd be wise to just reject this submission now.

racist americans reject this japanese masterpiece.

*sigh* That's what you get for not following my advice... ;)

I guess what's happening here is that the more experienced TASers got bored with the same old camera angles, so changing them to something new made it more novel/entertaining to them. But to a casual audience these camera angles are just as confusing as the old OoT constant backwalking runs.

Now I'm curious. Do you disagree with me on that part, do you feel that the effort the authors put into their work is more important than the actual result (as long as it's technically impressive?) or do you think we just shouldn't care that much for casual viewers who don't know the layout of this game's levels by heart?

However, despite being accepted, I do hope the authors take into account the audience reaction to this movie, and attempt to do a movie with more "graceful" camera work (and hopefully scrape a few more frames of course ^_^).

Wouldn't rejecting this movie have increased their motivation to do that? Do you think an improvement to this run will be achieved rather soon anyway? I'm sorry for asking that many questions and don't expect all of them to be answered.

I'll encode this one tomorrow. I'm glad this run got accepted!

I actually find this well judged.

Seconded. Adelikat pretty much expressed the same sentiments as I had, but much more eloquently and better justified. I wasn't completely happy with the camera work (compared to the previous run), but didn't see it as a reason for rejection.