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Posted: 3/21/2011 12:14 AM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Nice! Dump the frames/audio and upload it so we can have a look. =D Also, more good news. Thanks to Graveworm, I went back and made sure the enemies I left alive took more than 18 frames to kill. Turns out, I was wrong. I found a fast way to kill the first red Tsurare Stomp... and oddly enough, the strategy takes exactly 18 extra frames. Although this tactic only saves a single frame on the level, it completely eliminates the wait at the end of the level. Now it will also look optimized to those who don't know about the Mega Man 10 RNG!
Posted: 3/21/2011 2:26 PM
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scrimpeh
Editor, Skilled player (1439)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2108
TAS of 2017 First edition TAS of 2017 PSX TAS of 2017
Great work. It just keeps getting better and better
Posted: 3/21/2011 6:58 PM
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kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZyySzlgeyI i wish i was able to fix the music/sound..because it's a bit skippy/laggy..but i had no clue how to fix it. I never layed a finger on any of the audio options in Dolphin, but ah well, it's close enough though anyway, exactly 3.62 seconds past rockmanda.
Posted: 3/21/2011 7:06 PM
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ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
^I think you could've used the climbing wheel weapon thing more does Mega Man get instant top speed when pressing right while falling? because I see you press right against walls, but if it doesn't bring you istantly at top speed pressing right just at the right time would be faster
Posted: 3/21/2011 7:26 PM
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kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
there's only 3 spots where the wheel can't be used. the screen with the metool where ya gotta use water sheild, cause there's seriously no way to get past that metool by the time you walk up to it cause it'll still always be under it's shell. So water sheild has to be used to get rid of it while it's active earlier. the 2nd to last screen with the sniper joe, took like 30 minutes of testing, but it's impossible to ever get up to that ground with the sniper if i just wheeled those 2 corners, because you instantly get hit by his bullets guarenteed 100%, it cant be bypassed. water shield is the ONLY way to ever get rid of all 3 bullets at the same time. the press right thing um, im not entirly sure, i didn't spend enough time on those parts on accident. :( but i was frame-advacing at all times, going through each screen 1 frame at a time. the only place im worried about is falling through those screens with the spikes on the side of the wall. i should of put more time into that. i basically stayed exactly 1 single pixel/frame against the spikes, so that if pressing right for 1 little frame, i instantly die, just kept reloading savestate every time i die until mm would pass by it at the end.
Posted: 3/21/2011 8:10 PM
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benkodaniel
Joined: 1/28/2011
Posts: 10
kuja killer wrote:
the screen with the metool where ya gotta use water sheild, cause there's seriously no way to get past that metool by the time you walk up to it cause it'll still always be under it's shell. So water sheild has to be used to get rid of it while it's active earlier.
Rush Jet will solve this. Use RJ to fly over the metool.
Posted: 3/21/2011 8:35 PM
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kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
false, 'fraid it wont work. the ceiling to ground level is far too low to make it, it may look like you can pass it, but i assure you it wont work. first of all, even if you call rush jet, that cancels out being able to wheel that corner. wheeling that corner up to the higher ground is + 3 frames. you'll just instantly lose 3 frames anyway cause rush has to be called BEFORE you get up to the ground level. it's not possible to get on him if you were already running up there cause rush will be a couple pixels too high for mm to make it on him. edit: oh goddd, i just thought of something in my head that would extremely likely work at the cost of only minus 1 frame, ...but im not going to just attempt to do this whole tas all over from the very beginning cause it was fustrating to hell, spending all day and night with very little breaks in between all week last week, just for that 1 single little spot for some extra time. :( all 8 of my current dolphin savestates were at the last set of boss battles.
Posted: 3/21/2011 9:24 PM
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ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
if you don't know you can backup the savestates by simply moving them to a different folder, that gives you way to infinite savestates, very useful and what's your idea? wouldn't hurt to share with others
Posted: 3/21/2011 11:00 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Fantastic run kuja! I especially loved your intuitive uses for rush. I also saw a few of your other times as well. 1:35.66 Commando and 2:00.93 Sheep would be interesting to watch as well. On a different note, I found something interesting that will prove useful for a run through with Bass on hard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2t6GrtAhaQ&feature=related While in his Treble calling form, without touching Treble, he loses his auto/multidirectional gun, but gains mobility and a damage upgrade. Basically he becomes a purple/black Mega Man that can dash. Also, I'm not so sure if Mr. Perfect is a good idea for him, because of the fact that he loses no momentum when taking damage while in his Treble form. Just some notes to keep in mind.
Posted: 3/22/2011 12:22 AM
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benkodaniel
Joined: 1/28/2011
Posts: 10
kuja killer wrote:
false, 'fraid it wont work. the ceiling to ground level is far too low to make it, it may look like you can pass it, but i assure you it wont work. .
[URL=http://img21.imageshack.us/i/wrxe081.png/][/URL] Pretty much doable.
Posted: 3/22/2011 12:29 AM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
benkodaniel wrote:
Pretty much doable.
LOL. Owned. Nice find benko. Never stop believing kuja. I've eaten my own words many times in just the short span of running the first two levels. In fact, I just saved another 6 frames by altering my Tri-castle fight yet again. I really want to finish this level and post the WIP, but I keep finding improvements.
Posted: 3/22/2011 2:45 AM
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kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
yea i really love how all the rush coil parts turned out by getting maximum falling speed on every single one of those multi-colored static block layers. and all these rush jet parts for alot of the boss battles. :) jumping off rush jet the instant you touch him, in order to gain extra height so you hit those guys on the first frame their hit box is active, while normally you cant reach that high from jumping on the ground, it really gives a bunch of time. But "only" works best on 4 of the 9 guys due to their patterns. http://www.a3share.com/members/1119/slash.PNG - for example slash man is just not possible whatsoever. because the ice cube weapon goes waaay too far left/right. ------------- yikes my mistake benkodaniel. :( i forgot that you'd be able to gain 1 pixel of height by holding up within that small ceiling level. whoops. just being 1 pixel above the metool's hit box. ahhh well. well this new idea would defintely work, would be only 1 frame lost compared to the 2 or 3 frames lost from rush jet. + big time-gain from wheeling past the ladder. I think this image is self explanatory. Just only turning around for 1 frame to shoot, instant it hits, swap weapon so you dont get stopped by the hand animation hitting the floor, then continue on. unfortanetely i did not have any of the 3 gameboy weapons enabled though while i made the TAS.
Posted: 3/22/2011 3:33 AM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
That would definitely work. Great idea for DLC. I used the DLC Ballade Cracker to finish off Wily 4 since he ended up directly above me and its the only weapon Mega Man can fire straight up. If he stays up long enough, you might be able to fire a Triple Blade back at him as well. Any idea on the total amount of frames saved with this tactic? 5 frames or so? I doubt its enough to make redoing the whole time trial over again worth it.
Posted: 3/22/2011 5:27 AM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Phew! Finally finished the rerun of part 1. Over 80 frames of improvements. And it also looks significantly more bad-ass for some reason. Especially the Tri-Castle fight. That's probably what I'm most proud of. The rush-coil cancel trick saved 24 frames and I love watching Mega Man absolutely obliterate Tri-Castle with the "pew pew" buster. Just uploaded to YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b29jhH98yto The next video update will come after I complete Chill Man and Nitro Man, but I'll keep posting my progress in this thread.
Posted: 3/22/2011 5:57 AM
(Edited: 3/22/2011 6:03 AM)
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
According to kuja killer, shouldn't you be shooting small objects as well? It seems to me you missed at least 2 at around 0:30 and then many more at 0:35 and 1:05. Love the run, it just doesn't seem logically complete to me unless I am misunderstanding the RNG incrementing on small objects. If my speculation is correct that this isn't optimal, now might be a good time to learn hex editing, as it should be a relatively quick fix. Redo screen 1, hex screen 1 in. Redo screen 5, hex screen 5 in. (don't kill the red tsuare stomp any more?) Waste ~10 frames (if that) before the boss and hex then onward. If it is an improvement, and it is possible to hex edit it I would suggest doing it. If it is not hexable, then it is probably okay to move on. This game sounds hexable based on your descriptions though. (Be sure to backup your progress, but I'm sure you know this.)
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Posted: 3/22/2011 6:02 AM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
I don't know how Kuja came to the conclusion that small objects effect the RNG, but as far as I have tested, they do not. And why should they? The game has no reason to calculate anything when a small object is destroyed because they are not programed to ever drop anything. I kill a couple small objects in the run but that's purely for fun.
Posted: 3/22/2011 6:07 AM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
If that is true I am glad, because it means the run will finish sooner :)
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Posted: 3/22/2011 6:15 AM
(Edited: 3/22/2011 7:11 AM)
Quote
kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
Well when i was doing wily 1, i had some serious problems with the 2nd set of boss battles. The first tiem i came there, im very lucky i had a savestate on the screen with the basketball tossing enemy or i would of been screwed. The first time i come to the boss battles. I get napalm - ring - flame man. because i shoot the football, and kill the enemey with it When i beat flame man after jumping up from rush jet...as im falling to the ground, there's not enough time to make a full jump to fall down after the explosion on the ground. Im forced to start over again beginning from before the last enemy before the boss room. I shoot just ONLY the football sprite that thing tosses out, the RNG changed. This time it gave me ring man instead of napalm, but it still ended with flame. have to start over. Instead i jumped over the football, and jump over the enemy as seen in my video, and then it gave me ring - flame - napalm ..allowing me to get a full jump into the pit. the whole process took about 5 hours. ** well it could just only be related to boss battles which pattern is chossen first, and not enemies. Or that i somehow did misunderstand this whole deal on accident. sorry, i do not mean to sound mis-leading. it's not really such a big deal anyway. i'd say nothing to worry about. And there's no reason to restart commando because of it. killing actual enemies is more important anyways. if there was a real-time hex editor/memory viewer for dolphin someday in the future, then we'd be able to know the real truth + alot more like the real irritating 10 second intervals with the save game screen. "0:01, 0:11, 0:21" heh
Posted: 3/22/2011 6:37 AM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Perhaps it's an isolated case and it has something to do with how the Wily Stage 1 boss orders are chosen? I tested this on Commando Man's stage by shooting a few extra bombs from Arigocks and Bomb Pottons and then killing an enemy at the precise frame I knew he would drop a large health refill. Whether I shot several bombs or none, he still dropped the large health refill at the same frame. I also shot an extra bomb before running to the boss door and and Commando Man still performed his optimal pattern on the same frame as usual.
Posted: 3/22/2011 10:16 PM
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scrimpeh
Editor, Skilled player (1439)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2108
TAS of 2017 First edition TAS of 2017 PSX TAS of 2017
diggidoyo wrote:
Phew! Finally finished the rerun of part 1. Over 80 frames of improvements. And it also looks significantly more bad-ass for some reason. Especially the Tri-Castle fight. That's probably what I'm most proud of. The rush-coil cancel trick saved 24 frames and I love watching Mega Man absolutely obliterate Tri-Castle with the "pew pew" buster. Just uploaded to YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b29jhH98yto The next video update will come after I complete Chill Man and Nitro Man, but I'll keep posting my progress in this thread.
Very nice work right there, looking forward to more
Posted: 3/23/2011 3:50 AM
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sgrunt
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Former player
Joined: 10/28/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: The dark horror in the back of your mind
Seeing a run of this game (and MM9) was one of my major motivations for helping get Dolphin capable of Wii TASing. diggidoyo's progress on this has made it worthwhile. :)
Posted: 3/23/2011 2:42 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Yeah, definately a big thanks to you and others for picking up the ball and getting the Wii TASable. So, I know I said I'll post the next video when I finish Nitro Man, but the Chill Man run is going to look too good to not share. The properties of the ice are such that I don't lose any forward momentum until the second frame of reverse input. That means I can spin around on the ice and maintain constant full horizontal speed. When this is coupled with the 30fps of the AVI, it produces the effect of full speed moonwalking! I can also reverse every 3rd frame to still achieve the effect of spinning in the AVI.
Posted: 3/23/2011 5:44 PM
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kuja_killer
Player (64)
Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 123
Location: Lake Havasu, Arizona
should be interesting to see how it turns out not having the help of the water shield for the first 3 screens, it'll defintely be some bit of delay assuming you dont have the gameboy weapons for this full run. so then im guessing you might be forced to just do the jump 2 times deal huh ?? that sucks. bummer. or actually commando bomb i think will help with some of them besides the blade. ---- and also the fact that without the GB weapons, you'd just only get to do buster-blade-buster. While screw crusher-blade-screw crusher-blade would shave off more time. But ahh well, it'll still turn out good in the end im sure.
Posted: 3/23/2011 6:37 PM
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ALAKTORN
He/Him
Former player
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
thanks for quoting that scrimpeh, I missed it run looked good, but I noticed you walk a few times during the sandstorm, jumping isn't always faster? also that sounds awesome about Chill Man, abuse it as much as possible, looking for ward to it
Posted: 3/23/2011 8:11 PM
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diggidoyo
Experienced player (583)
Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon
First edition TAS of 2015
Haha, once again, I'm amused by your attention to detail. Nothing seems to get by you. I don't mean that in a. condenscending way. I love your ability to scrutinize my performance. I managed to squeeze another frame out of an earlier part of the stage. But it wasn't really useful, because it meant I had to wait for a single frame before the boss door. Walking during the sandstorm was a way for me to hide this 1 frame wait without... actually waiting. Walking itself is the same speed as jumping, but being lower on the sidestorm wall is a frame slower by the end. And yes, I tested the full speed moonwalking already and it looks sexy. I'll be doing it throught the whole level. And the level will nearly be as fast as the time trial with the Commando Bomb. The boss fight will be slower, but still much faster than buster only when I abuse the Triple Blade glitch.
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