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Posted: 11/13/2010 2:24 PM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
groobo wrote:
Ok, at the crystal caves I locked myself between (still not sure if this is necessary) a goblin and a wall near the gap, did the knockback dash jump (let's call it that) from there, and it was more than enough to cover the gap and finish the level without going oob. Oh and the most important thing on the to-test-list right now is to check if speed does matter when trying to clip through something.
I'll check the speed of the knockback dash then... The normal dash speed has a speed max of 52. It uses the running speed of 27-28 max, by adding 8 or 9 speed values at the use of the dash button (triangle), to make 36, then adds either 7 or 8 values to make either 43 or 44 (depends on the frame, really the value of the speed that we use dash on, preferably 28 speed), then 9 or 8 to make 51-52. Whenever it reaches the max speed of 51 or 52, it keeps the speed relevant for a few frames (basically 52 for 2 frames, 51 for 2 frames, 50 for 2 frames), then it decides to decrease the speed down by 1 every frame thereafter. So in general, it will either decrease it back down to 27-28 or 0 if you stopped moving. Using the clubs square attack gives the speed from value 0 (that means me standing still obviously) to value 22, it then decends by 7 the next 4 frames to 15, then 12, 9, 6, 4, then finally reaching 0. Using the knockback dash while walking: Can be 30-35, but usually is 31 or 32. Not sure why. But it really don't matter, because I really don't think we'll be using this while walking :p. Using the knockback dash with running: 56 when running maximum. So IT is faster (in terms of moving speed atleast) than the daring dash ability. Though I really think that the time it takes to actually make the speed go up by 4 points (using the knockback dash instead of using the daring dash I mean :P). So this is a good thing, but as for a time saver, I don't know. It'd definately help if those 4 extra values of speed could help us skip the Gauntlet, and maybe get over spots before we get the daring dash (such as in Return to the Graveyard). Like, it'd help in spots where we need to get over chasms that are basically a pixel off (like in the crystal caverns) but... Yeah you know what I mean xD. And, really, just from common sense that I know of.. Not really tested it, but I do not think that speed has anything to do with clips, it really just has to do with moving dan, into the clip zone. Because the clips that I've tested, I could do them standing in place and just barely moving clip through something (not all of them, but I mean a few). Well there's the stuff I'm sure you wanted, I'm rather confused on how you do the knockback dash trick while also using the daring dash, if it's possible? Edit again: Nevermind on the edit thing I just said if you read that.. It works on all of them :D.
Posted: 11/13/2010 3:14 PM
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groobo
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
So (assuming we're talking about jumps): 28 is a running jump, 52 is a dash jump, and 56 is a knockback running jump (without dash). If my logic isn't flawed a knockback dash jump should be AROUND 100 at its peak (you can tell that there's a huge difference between this and a normal dash jump, speed-wise, just by seeing it in action). I assume you did the knockback trick the right way. You can either kinda do it (when the hit registers after the jump) so it enables you to cover a little bit more distance with a jump, or do it the right way (not really sure without testing with frame-advance, though I always attack before jumping) - then it gives you that little bit of distance at the start AND doubles your speed as it seems. Yes a knockback dash jump is possible. That's how I covered the gap in the crystal caves and I can do it pretty consistently. Here's a dummy-proof tutorial: Step 1) Let's assume that you're running straight against a wall in front of you (hold UP). Step 2) When you're ready, tap SQUARE (club equipped) for a single frame while still holding UP (maybe you have to release it here, I dunno). Step 3) Now you release UP and hold the opposite direction. Step 4) In the next frame you push and hold BOTH - TRIANGLE (shield/dash) and CIRCLE (jump). Step 5) Celebrate. That's how I do it in real-time anyway. I can be massively off with the timings (what input goes to what frame), but I'm positive that the button sequence is right. So it's attack -> change direction -> dash jump. As for using this to maybe clip through something: maybe at a higher speed the game would basically brute-force Dan to go through. Nobody expected Dan to move this fast and I guess we can gain even more speed with a push from an enemy (a knockback dash jump with a push from the snake guy from a chest would go to at least 150) so we can at least give it a shot. This wouldn't be the first game where high-speed, brute-force clipping works, you know. Just change and freeze the ram value for speed at a different level each time (start at, say, 100 and work your way up from there) and try jumping through different spots. Two good spots for this test would be the fence clip in cemetery hill (the one that you go through after getting the talisman), and the cage wth a health vial near the yellow rune holder gate in the gauntlet (there's no sign that you can clip through it, but I did it once before and could never replicate it). EDIT: It appears that you don't have to nail the real knockback dash jump in order to cover the gap in the caves. I was able to just barely make it with a pseudo knockback dash jump where after hitting the wall I merely got some extra distance instead of the full speed bonus after dash jumping. I guess this proves that you can approach the wall at various angles to prepare for this (and probably only this one) trick, instead of locking yourself in place between stuff. I played some more around return to the graveyard and I found that you can hit some non-solid invisible wall or something while standing on this tombstone. I couldn't get a full knockback jump to work, but (very rarely, but still) I pulled off a pseudo one. It appears that the few extra pixels is enough to get up the cliff if you'd move in a straight line. I tried doing it in a couple of angles, but because of the crappy camera I basically always moved in zigzags. Here's a shot from above the area in case you want to know what's approximately the best angle. I measured the distance for each angle, starting at an optimal position on the tombstone for each one and ending where the trajectory meets the cliff. The dots above the numbers represent the cliff's altitude at each angle's end (blue is the lowest, yellow the opposite, green is somewhere in between). So the distance you'd have to cover for each of those is as follows: 1 - 111pix, 2 - 114.5pix, 3 - 106pix, 4 - 106.9pix, 5 - 133.5pix. No. 4 appears to be the best one since it's less than a pixel longer than the shortest one and it ends at the lowest altitude. Of course unless you somehow manage to pull off a full knockback jump, then you could even move alongside the cliff for the most of the jump and still get onto it.
Posted: 11/13/2010 6:32 PM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
groobo wrote:
So (assuming we're talking about jumps): 28 is a running jump, 52 is a dash jump, and 56 is a knockback running jump (without dash). If my logic isn't flawed a knockback dash jump should be AROUND 100 at its peak (you can tell that there's a huge difference between this and a normal dash jump, speed-wise, just by seeing it in action). I assume you did the knockback trick the right way. You can either kinda do it (when the hit registers after the jump) so it enables you to cover a little bit more distance with a jump, or do it the right way (not really sure without testing with frame-advance, though I always attack before jumping) - then it gives you that little bit of distance at the start AND doubles your speed as it seems. Yes a knockback dash jump is possible. That's how I covered the gap in the crystal caves and I can do it pretty consistently. Here's a dummy-proof tutorial: Step 1) Let's assume that you're running straight against a wall in front of you (hold UP). Step 2) When you're ready, tap SQUARE (club equipped) for a single frame while still holding UP (maybe you have to release it here, I dunno). Step 3) Now you release UP and hold the opposite direction. Step 4) In the next frame you push and hold BOTH - TRIANGLE (shield/dash) and CIRCLE (jump). Step 5) Celebrate. That's how I do it in real-time anyway. I can be massively off with the timings (what input goes to what frame), but I'm positive that the button sequence is right. So it's attack -> change direction -> dash jump. As for using this to maybe clip through something: maybe at a higher speed the game would basically brute-force Dan to go through. Nobody expected Dan to move this fast and I guess we can gain even more speed with a push from an enemy (a knockback dash jump with a push from the snake guy from a chest would go to at least 150) so we can at least give it a shot. This wouldn't be the first game where high-speed, brute-force clipping works, you know. Just change and freeze the ram value for speed at a different level each time (start at, say, 100 and work your way up from there) and try jumping through different spots. Two good spots for this test would be the fence clip in cemetery hill (the one that you go through after getting the talisman), and the cage wth a health vial near the yellow rune holder gate in the gauntlet (there's no sign that you can clip through it, but I did it once before and could never replicate it). EDIT: It appears that you don't have to nail the real knockback dash jump in order to cover the gap in the caves. I was able to just barely make it with a pseudo knockback dash jump where after hitting the wall I merely got some extra distance instead of the full speed bonus after dash jumping. I guess this proves that you can approach the wall at various angles to prepare for this (and probably only this one) trick, instead of locking yourself in place between stuff. I played some more around return to the graveyard and I found that you can hit some non-solid invisible wall or something while standing on this tombstone. I couldn't get a full knockback jump to work, but (very rarely, but still) I pulled off a pseudo one. It appears that the few extra pixels is enough to get up the cliff if you'd move in a straight line. I tried doing it in a couple of angles, but because of the crappy camera I basically always moved in zigzags. Here's a shot from above the area in case you want to know what's approximately the best angle. I measured the distance for each angle, starting at an optimal position on the tombstone for each one and ending where the trajectory meets the cliff. The dots above the numbers represent the cliff's altitude at each angle's end (blue is the lowest, yellow the opposite, green is somewhere in between). So the distance you'd have to cover for each of those is as follows: 1 - 111pix, 2 - 114.5pix, 3 - 106pix, 4 - 106.9pix, 5 - 133.5pix. No. 4 appears to be the best one since it's less than a pixel longer than the shortest one and it ends at the lowest altitude. Of course unless you somehow manage to pull off a full knockback jump, then you could even move alongside the cliff for the most of the jump and still get onto it.
You're... quite amazing ;D .. And definately overwelming ^^, but I suppose thats a good thing really... I'mma rearrange the way I have the first 3 post (later) that way post 2 and 3 join together... And I can use the 3rd post to list the tricks. List things that I need help on (mainly from you, and you're dummy proof methods :P), and things that I can well. And what I can actually do myself without major trouble. No. 4 seems to be the best one like you said, and frame advance helps alot truly, I'll see what I can do lol. I'm actually being lazy today :[ , but I do promise to have updates from my side by tonight, and I'll use your new trick to see if theres any progress on the Gallows Gauntlet as well.
Posted: 11/14/2010 1:09 AM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
Okay, I've updated all the tricks that we know of, they're the 3rd post on Page 1... If I've left anything out tell me :P... I've got a few ideas of my own right now... So here goes... 1. Scarecrow Fields - If there's any way we could clip parts of this level (such as the beginning gate before the fight the robot imp), it'd save atleast 30 seconds off of the 100% run because we wouldn't have to go around to get the Earth Rune. (I at first figured the robot imp did not count as % to the chalice, but I was wrong :P). As well, if there's any skips usable at the Death trap machines, that'd help too. 2. (Useless though) I believe it's possible to enter the spot where the chalice is in The Pumpkin Serpent level (before killing the boss)... Though, like the beginning of this sentence, it is rather useless :P. 3. The Asylum - I wonder if there's a way to clip into the yellow door with the straight jacket zombies? Also, I wonder if there's anyway we could possibly get a loop going somewhere in this level, maybe it'd save time, if it's possible?? Though only useful if we are never able to skip the gauntlet. 4. The Asylum Grounds - Clipping through gates here would be useless, however, entering loop mode, and falling straight to where the chess pieces are would be extremely beneficiary. However, the sad part is, chances are, we'll figure out how to skip the Gallows Gauntlet completely, and won't even enter this level outside of 100%. And in 100%, we have to kill what is necessary for the chalice, and some enemies don't even spawn without Jack's dialog triggering them. 5. The Crystal Caves - (For 100%) I wonder if the Dragon just automatically is given a set path to move based on the RAM that you have when you entered the level on x frame. Or, if based on when you hit it, on a certain frame, or where you're standing, have to do with that? (If so, we could make him stay at the top platform every time, definitely saving time). 6. The Ant Caves - (For 100%), I came to the conclusion that some people will say that it's not 100% if we didn't get the chicken drumsticks, and I do completely agree with them, so... I'll get a path (this probably won't be a big deal) that gives all the amber we need, and all the fairies. As for the Queen, she's severely weak to Spears and lightning, so we could probably post pone doing this level until then. And with the map from the guy over at IGN, I don't have to worry about "Where the blank am I? o.O) 7. Dan's Crypt - (For 100%), It'd be faster to complete Return to the graveyard before getting the life bottle here wouldn't it? :P (A question I know). 8. Gallows Gauntlet - Use the knock back dash to get onto the pillar where we do the skip at maybe.
Posted: 11/14/2010 5:55 AM
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skychase
He/Him
Joined: 3/25/2007
Posts: 212
Location: Quebec, Canada
[quote="Torn338"] 19. Pools of the Ancient Dead - I've tried it, and every time I try, I kill the zombie, and can't get it onto the platform.. Can you explain how to get it on the platform? P [/quote] Push him to the edge of the platform with the sword and dash into him (you probably already guessed this ^^). I can't wait to see your next WIP
http://www.youtube.com/user/skychase2rebirth/
Posted: 11/14/2010 7:01 AM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
skychase wrote:
Torn338 wrote:
19. Pools of the Ancient Dead - I've tried it, and every time I try, I kill the zombie, and can't get it onto the platform.. Can you explain how to get it on the platform? :P
Push him to the edge of the platform with the sword and dash into him (you probably already guessed this ^^). I can't wait to see your next WIP
o_o I've done that and it keeps dying xD... Maybe I'm just shooting it wrong. or at a weird angle. Next WIP some :p
Posted: 11/14/2010 9:28 AM
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groobo
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
ad 1) One point where you could go behind the fence is at the very start of the level, where the tree is. The invisible wall above the fence is pretty small behind the tree, so IF you'd find a way of getting onto it, you could drop on the other side. From there I could run straight to the corn field, but couldn't make it any further. ad 3) Here I've tested every glitch I know. Couldn't get anywhere. ad 4) Going onto the walls would be our best bet to shorten this level. The only place I was able to do so is right at the chess puzzle, which was useless (I still got to explore, lol). ad 5) IIRC, the dragon's pattern is always the same. ad 7) We should get the bottle right AFTER we complete return to the graveyard - this saves map time. I got the knockback jump to work with the small sword (the one without dash). This could be potentially useful for the return to the graveyard shortcut, since while standing on the tiny tombstone we can hit the "invisible wall" at completely different angles, compared to the club. You could check if you can "double hit" with the club using the inventory glitch, FOR the knockback jump. Turn the inventory, double press select, a frame before the inventory pops back up you press and hold square, and at the next frame you press X to equip the club (again). This does actually double hit the wall, but my timing and hand coordination aren't good enough to check in realtime if this, followed by the knockback jump really works. I'll go through the list on page 1 later. EDIT: Addressing the list on page 1: ad 2) I was wrong about Dan's speed being close to 0 after entering the void with the inventory glitch. Well, maybe not wrong about the speed itself, but whether we can clear the required distance for each trick in a single loop. YES, we can do that. I can do the enchanted earth straight-to-exit loop pretty consistently in realtime. ad 1) I was able to land straight on the exit trigger in a single loop, in realtime. You should record and compare both strats and see which one is faster. ad 12) Just like the enchanted earth loop, it's pretty easy even in real time. Enter the void with the inventory glitch while facing the bridge dead on. Turn the inventory window off right after passing the kill trigger while holding UP. Keep holding UP for the most of the loop and start fixing your trajectory when the sky texture appears and starts swirling (I do it with the right length-wise combination of holding either left, or up and left). The furthest I got was the bridge in front of the throne room's entrance, but I'm sure you can drop into the entrance when TASing. ad 13) The furthest I got here is the exact same spot where I end up during the previous loop. That's because like 5 seconds into the fall the camera spasms out and you're going in circles around the same spot for the remainder. You could work around that with frame advance (because the camera changes its angle too fast to even keep track of it) and ram watch (so you actually know in what direction you're going and make sure it's the right one). ad 15+) Here the loop is similar to the second one in the haunted ruins, though the spasm starts way later. Late enough that I could almost reach the exit trigger. I didn't test looping in the time device with the inventory glitch, but I figure it shouldn't be any different from the rest. ad 19) What skychase said. Either that or try to double hit either with dash only or sword/club swing+dash. ad 24) The wolf on the right disappears later than the one on the left. Run up to him after you gain control and jump-attack with the club, then just follow him while hitting. After he disappears the second wolf comes in. The boss meter should be somewhere under 100, so you can instantly switch to the next beast and take it down with a single club swing. In case the meter is above 100 you have to land two hits and you can do it before he even lands on the ground after pouncing for the first time. It's very easy in realtime. ad 27) AFAIK every arena in this level is based on a timer, instead of body count. So only killing the very last enemy in each arena ASAP matters. A stronger weapon won't really save you any time here if I'm right, so there's no need to delay the level. I hope this helps. EDIT2: In cemetery hill you can instantly get up the hill after getting the club by locking yourself above the ground in this spot and doing and jumping from there. (assuming you choose to get the club here instead of the mausoleum, I'd go for this one even if it's slower because it demonstrates a cool clipping glitch) Whether this or the regular way of getting out through the boulders is faster is up to debate, so recording and comparing the two is probably necessary. In pumpkin gorge after getting up the wall and passing the invisible barrier(s) go here. The blue line is where the trigger which warps you back to the normal playing area is. Basically you want to dash jump right when you hit that trigger and move in the pointed direction. If done correctly, you should end up half way into the fence - just jump through and you can continue from there. This skips the green rune. EDIT3: We can try and clip through the you-know-which block in the gauntlet from both sides now. I thought that we can (IF we can) only clip through the left corner in order to get any further, but it appears it was a mistake on my part back when I first tested this. I hope we nail it someday.
Posted: 11/14/2010 5:06 PM
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skychase
He/Him
Joined: 3/25/2007
Posts: 212
Location: Quebec, Canada
In cemetery hill, is it possible to skip the death trigger in the lava pit ? I'd test it but I don't understand the Inventory glitch... -_-
http://www.youtube.com/user/skychase2rebirth/
Posted: 11/14/2010 5:43 PM
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groobo
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
No, there's solid ground underneath and the death trigger goes pretty deep, so even if you reach the bottom you'll die the moment you close the inventory window. Inventory glitch, in short: normally you can't enter the inventory while moving, but if you stand still, go to the inventory, and press select twice, the inventory screen will close and reappear a full second later - even if you're running or in mid air. Dan still moves when set in motion before the inventory pops back up, while everything else stops and triggers won't go off if you pass them in this state. The most common use for this is to, before the inventory reapperas, move above a death trigger (lava/water pits, void) - this way you can get past the trigger and are free to "loop" the level (in case the pit has no solid ground underneath it) in order to fall to any location in it, including straight to exit/level-end triggers.
Posted: 11/14/2010 8:38 PM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
Man I've been testing the thing out non stop forever, but I've also some more ideas on things that could work now with that knock back daring dash. I'll edit this after I get some of those spots tested out, and give some pictures, and maybe a video of things.. I don't know yet though. ------------------ Edits: I've found out that I did something wrong, because I've managed to get the running speed knockback dash from 56, to actually 65! And that's without using the daring dash. With the daring dash knock back dash, the speed is actually around 86. (From what I got, I've tried numerous times, but this isn't my cup of tea to do lol).
Posted: 11/14/2010 11:20 PM
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groobo
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
65 you say? Maybe you could get to the other side of the moat at return to the graveyard with it. Or at least you could use it as a form of transportation before you get the daring dash ability (use the sword instead of the club, I guess), or even after that (using dash). Anyway, did a quick test run today. Getting the bottle in dan's crypt would save time in zarok's lair. I'm also thinking about the bottle in the graveyard. It's because if you want to land double hits with the club on any boss you have to attack at point blank which usually results in taking a ton of contact damage. Zarok, for example, eats away a whole bottle of your health in less than a second when you try to get the most from your club swings. So at least one bottle would be necessary to even survive the fight abusing the invulnerability time you get after loosing a whole bottle and by picking up the vials the skeletons leave behind. A second bottle would dramatically extend the time we can keep hitting zarok without going for a health refill, because of the extra invulnerability time and the fact that we can pick up more vials in one go. If you manage to enter zarok's lair with the club's durability at least at 50% then I guess you won't have to do the replenish glitch at the entrance hall. Each boss takes away either approx 25% or 50%. 25% if you just jump attack (each takes away 1%), or double hit (2% each). The latter is faster, but I dunno if it's faster enough to take the extra trip to the room with the right goblins in the entrance hall. So you probably should record and compare.
Posted: 11/15/2010 8:33 PM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
I'll test that about return to the graveyard here in a second... Really though, I've got a proposal that might work, and i'll check that afterwords. Though whenever I can, I'll have vids showing things. In the any% TAS thing, I suppose it could be reasonable to get 3 life bottles, the 2 in Dan's Crypt and the one in the Graveyard... That way we can extend the time further. And, it probably would save time in Zarok's lair like you said. All will be done in testing ofcourse. I'll probably do 3 complete any% TAS, with different ways of doing it, and whatever's fastest, will be the one I submit.
Posted: 11/15/2010 9:20 PM
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groobo
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
The second bottle in dan's crypt would definitely be a waste of time since the fight with zarok only takes like 30s or so and you need like 5-10s total to pick up the vials. The bottle in the graveyard would be worth it since turning the statue and taking the route with the bottle is slower than the normal way by less than a second and I guess it'd save more than that during the fight with zarok. I'm all out of ideas for now so I'm going back to playing around the gauntlet. edit: For the gauntlet, I guess we could also get onto any of these blocks in order to progress to the right one from there and finish the level early.
Posted: 11/15/2010 11:03 PM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
groobo wrote:
The second bottle in dan's crypt would definitely be a waste of time since the fight with zarok only takes like 30s or so and you need like 5-10s total to pick up the vials. The bottle in the graveyard would be worth it since turning the statue and taking the route with the bottle is slower than the normal way by less than a second and I guess it'd save more than that during the fight with zarok. I'm all out of ideas for now so I'm going back to playing around the gauntlet. edit: For the gauntlet, I guess we could also get onto any of these blocks in order to progress to the right one from there and finish the level early.
I'll try, but, if we don't get anywhere soon with this... I guess I'll just make the TAS and forget about skipping the gauntlet :P Edit: Invisible wall this, or invisible wall that... This level is FULL of them, I've tried literally everything. I, somehow, actually managed to get enough speed to jump (lower ofcourse) to were we jump over the brick wall (where the star rune goes) but... believe it or not there's... an invisible wall there! The only reason it works in the skip, is because we jump over it.. Also, appearantly, depending on how dan faces.. Decides how some invisible walls work (That explains why some spots you can walk on at one point, but if you do something else, you fall or.. die or etc) ... Really, it's been fun trying to do the impossible, but... Unless you can figure it out, this level is basically unskippable. I've tried everything known to man, even using a club! (literally, lmao)... So... Idk, if you can't figure anything out, I guess it's just time to start the thing.
Posted: 11/16/2010 9:06 AM
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groobo
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
I've tried everything there was to try without frameadvance, without luck. I've actually managed to ALMOST get on one of those blocks (Dan's shadow would fall ontop of one, but my height was just a few pixels too short to get up). I also had an idea of kb dash jumping from where the ground is a bit higher around the blocks, back to a really short one on the lower part (the invisible walls around the blocks are REALLY low), but I couldn't get a kb dash jump to work after trying for half an hour - that's actually why I suggested this in the first place. In case that doesn't work and you DID try everything I suggested (double hit kb dash/running jump, freezing the speed value at 100+ and doing stuff in that state - I don't see why the first one wouldn't work, though I'm not sure if you could really pull off a full kb jump or just a faster pseudo one, and I'm 100% sure that a ton of speed would allow for more clipping spots when you reach the breakpoint, just need to figure out what it is and if it can be reached with in-game means), but it led to nothing, just do the run. Even if we don't skip the gauntlet, the chalice and bottle count stays as is. So no chalices and you only should pick up the first bottle in the crypt and the one in the graveyard. The only things left to figure out in this scenario is whether you can get up the cliff or over the moat in return to the graveyard, if you can cover enough distance in the polls of the ancient dead with a kb dash jump instead of luring the fatty in order to reach the exit trigger, and if looping through the lake is faster than taking the old route. I can't test any of those without frameadvance myself, so I hope you really double check everything before jumping into conclusions.
Posted: 11/17/2010 10:40 PM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
Still not got anywhere with that, I did download MHS, to change values and what not... But no matter what I did, the values did not lock... Maybe it's because I don't know what I'm doing for PCSX, but it should usually be the same shouldn't it? >_> lol I don't wanna seem stupid but, even when it said "LOCKED", it would still be locked on RAM Watch, on both MHS and PCSX RAM Watch, but.. In game, it would be as if nothing happened... Usually, I'm assuming that means I may have the wrong value for his speed, but... This is the only value in which it actually goes up when I move by quite a bit.. and 3 times I did RAM search to find the right value, in the off chance I was wrong, but all 3 times, it still was the 000F87F0 value. If it is, that that is the right value, and its even staying locked on RAM Watch, what am I doing wrong? (Perhaps a dummy proof method of this too???) Anyway, on to the TAS itself, I messed around in a few spots, not just in the Gauntlet, to where it would show shadows underneath Dan, some slanted, some fully straight. Was the one in the Gauntlet that you found straight? Also, I'll probably just procrastinate The Lake, to figure out which way is faster, until I actually do the run up to that point. That way, I can see which one truly is faster, based on the first frame Dan can move, with the items we'll have at that point at everything. Even if nothing really effects which is faster, we'll at least know for one what our % on the club is at that point, and excreta. Also, I'm assuming you think that I'm being lazy on some things, and yes, I am, :P but I'm seriously trying everything on the Gauntlet level :c, just nothing wants to work. I've got over 8000 rerecords on the thing o_o. About Return to the Graveyard, I'm, confused, to say the least, about how exactly you do the sword kbd ... I do feel stupid asking lol, but atleast I can figure out without spending forever trying to figure it out myself ;P. Uhm, about jumping over the moat, I don't see it happening, its a huge one just like in the Haunted Ruins, but the other method, does seem possible, but that is to say.. It depends on where we do it at. This time, I finally did massive research on something other than a huge skip. That being, your method, and the pseudo one isn't the best approach... We need a full blown kbd to achieve the speed of a daring dash. So, here's my method, and it is pretty hard to do in real time, unless you have a USB controller, or some way to connect a playstation or some other type of controller to your computer, that way, you can use the analog stick to automatically run instead of pressing the arrow keys 2 times in 1 direction, which... I have a keyboard, and nothing else, so that puts me at a disadvantage for that part (if it even works). In this image, is the near optimal position that we can use, the camera angle isn't perfect, but it's got me extremely close. Here is an image of where to stand http://i55.tinypic.com/dd1ct1.png , the red area, is the area where we need to jump, the blue things, are invisible walls of some form. The open area, basically around the club, are not invisible walls, if you push square, you can turn 360 degrees, and still not touch one. So, this kbd, is.. Different, but it works. You have to first use square to put the club out, then jump, hitting the wall, the momentum gained pushes you back down onto the grave (not always), and you push in the opposite direction as normal. Sometimes, you just can still do it without landing. Both are the exact speed in every way. And you can even do it this way standing still. I'm not really sure why, but they both reach basically the same spot. That means, that we need to be able to get a running kbd. Now, this is possible. But, we have severely limited room to even start the running part. This means, we'll actually have to start at the opposite end, manipulate the camera and Dan's position so that we're running, and facing that direction in general. Then do it as normal with running. That'd be the keyboard approach I'm sure. If it actually won't work that way, I guess I could get me a few dollars and get me either a USB controller, Adapter, or a port device for a controller for another console. I used to have that device that you get with your xbox 360 that hooks your xbox controller into USB, and it worked on my computer, because I used to play Resident Evil 4 PC on it with that... But, I don't know where it is, but that'd definitely be an approach, I'll probably just buy the thing for that. Probably a mountain here typing lol... But also, aside from optimizing the fights with bosses... We have nothing left to do except make the thing, after figuring out how to do the return to the graveyard skip. Ofcourse, theres still the Gauntlet, but, if we don't figure out anything soon. That doesn't mean I wouldn't gladly redo the any% TAS in the future if someone (or myself) figures out how to skip the level, the dragon gems, the dragon fight, and the dragon armor itself. So :) no worries! Well one other thing, if there's anyway that you could possibly use someones computer to help me make this (like working on the movie file with me) aside from your own :P.. That'd really help, because... As you can tell, I'm quite the confused person ;). I do hope in the end I make this pretty well to your likings, if not, I'll seriously start over from scratch and redo it, until you say it's pretty well okay to submit for publishing :D . Also, a thing I just thought of, is things I could possibly do for entertainment as well, I don't plan on making this a "Entertainment/Speed Trade offs" movie, so just whatever I could use that doesn't waste time I guess.
Posted: 11/18/2010 4:16 AM
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ventuz
He/Him
Player (125)
Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940
Torn338 wrote:
lol I don't wanna seem stupid but, even when it said "LOCKED", it would still be locked on RAM Watch, on both MHS and PCSX RAM Watch, but.. In game, it would be as if nothing happened... Usually, I'm assuming that means I may have the wrong value for his speed, but... This is the only value in which it actually goes up when I move by quite a bit.. and 3 times I did RAM search to find the right value, in the off chance I was wrong, but all 3 times, it still was the 000F87F0 value.
Maybe it's something like emu refresh rate faster than MHS? I'm not sure. I've been following this thread somewhat, so I'm interested in result.
Posted: 11/18/2010 7:41 AM
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groobo
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
@RAM: Make sure Dan isn't moving, lock the address at eg. 100, then unlock it. Tell us what exactly happens: does it instantly drop down to 0, does it decrease with each game-step, (if the latter) what happens when you move Dan during the decrease - is the fictional speed added to the real one? Every bit of info would be helpful. @Dan's shadow: The spot I found resulted in a slanted shadow. I know what you're thinking, but you actually can stand like this in a couple of spots in the game. @Sword kb: My theory is that the kb technique works once the hit registers while you already have some speed towards the opposite direction. So it's just a matter of delaying further input for a couple of frames after the initial attack-button press when using the sword. I did it in realtime, so I'm at least sure about the execution. @Moat: Did you try to nail a double-hit kb with the club only? Check ANYWHERE if you can pull something like that off and it's a big NO-MOAT-SKIP if a technique like that isn't possible. @Tombstone-to-cliff: I assume that both methods reach the same point because of how much speed you gain from the kb depends on how close the hit registered to where Dan is. In order to get a full kb jump, the hit has to land like right in Dan's face. Also I assumed you just changed the controller to a dualshock in the settings (you can do that in epsxe, at least) and tested my method of a pseudo kb in the direction I think is optimal and going in a literally STRAIGHT line - that's the only way I think it's going to happen and I guess you'd need to use the analog stick to achieve a straight trajectory. You can't register the hit anywhere really close to Dan when standing on the tombstone (even with the sword IIRC), that's why I don't see how a full blown kb would work in this scenario, not to mention that we don't even need it - we only have to gain SOME speed in order to cover the gap and touch the cliff at the peak of Dan's jump. Maybe this will help: you can start running without moving even by a pixel - just crouch using the shield and double press from there. If nothing works you can try luring a wolf to around that area, this makes Dan aim for the wolf instead of straight ahead. Maybe this would open up more angles where the hit will register and hopefully at least one will end up being really close to Dan (like kinda hitting the floor). @Last part: Me rotting at any of my friend's place isn't really an option. Don't worry, I'm sure you'll do a great job by yourself. Just make sure to post SINGLE-level video WIPs (so you don't have to redo more than you have to, in case someone spots a mistake early in a level) - if you don't want to release them publicly just put them up on sendspace and PM the url to anyone involved.
Posted: 11/18/2010 10:30 PM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
ventuz wrote:
Torn338 wrote:
lol I don't wanna seem stupid but, even when it said "LOCKED", it would still be locked on RAM Watch, on both MHS and PCSX RAM Watch, but.. In game, it would be as if nothing happened... Usually, I'm assuming that means I may have the wrong value for his speed, but... This is the only value in which it actually goes up when I move by quite a bit.. and 3 times I did RAM search to find the right value, in the off chance I was wrong, but all 3 times, it still was the 000F87F0 value.
Maybe it's something like emu refresh rate faster than MHS? I'm not sure. I've been following this thread somewhat, so I'm interested in result.
Nah, it was just the wrong value. The reason being is, MediEvil has 2 values of speed, 1 deals with basically just being a mirror of the other one. That's why, it took me a while to find it. The real value is actually 001C4AB9. ---Groobo--- @RAM: Got the real speed value (001C4AB9). The max speed before it goes into the negative is a value of 127. However, the higher the speed, the less height the jump gets. At about 100 is where the jump starts to not get as high. Probably due to the game not being made to suit a value of that speed, with its jump code :p. Though, it's obviously impossible to obtain this speed legitly ... I'll do my research and figure out the lowest speed we need to obtain to be able to reach across the moat, and then we can decide if its possible from there. Also, even if we did reach the other part of the broken bridge, there's a tiny invisible wall there, I suppose the development team thought of everything with this game ;). @Dan's shadow: Hmm, care to show me a picture of it :D ? @Sword kb: Okay ;D @Moat: The double hit for the club is really just 1% for the object that it hits, and 1% for hitting the ground. If you just hit x one time, whether held or tapped it will only hit the ground, and no other object (do this in an open field). So you'd basically go from 100 to 99%, then 99 to 98% and etc. So, by double hit, I'm confused on how you'd do that :p @Tombstone-to-cliff: It's probably just camera angle. I've managed to run on the tombstone for 2-4 frames before falling off, instead of the usual sliding through the stone. And sadly, maybe it's just PCSX, but the analog thing, makes Dan walk extremely funny, including running... So, use of the analog stick, isn't going to happen with the current plugin I have, I'll try various ones later if it ends up just being the plugin. @Last part: Haha rotting :P. Anyways, I'll do each individual level, on youtube, it doesn't bother me really, because I want criticism ;). --- This run is surely very innovative to say the least. A weird note I wanna add is, the value that I posted, the new one... It seems to work in return to the graveyard, but in other stages, it doesn't seem to do really anything. So I'm curious, does that really mean that MediEvil has many different speed addresses? Or what, I'm quite... Confused :P. Haha
Posted: 11/19/2010 8:30 AM
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groobo
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
@RAM: I was thinking of using max speed for clipping rather than long-jumping. Also, what was Dan's speed during a full kb DASH jump? If it's around 100, I wonder what will happen if you manage a legit speed-overkill (go above 127) with a push from the snake guy. @Shadow: Here. @Moat: Double hitting enemies and double hitting for the kb jump would be different. The only way I can see it happening goes like this: *) Make sure you have the club equipped and the pointer is hovering above the club when you go to the inventory window. 1) Go into the inventory. 2) Double-press select. 3) Before the inventory pops back up, start running towards the wall, then press square at the very last frame where the game still takes input from you to control Dan. 4) Press x somewhere in the following frames and throw another hit with the square button. You can do it immediately after "switching" weapons - the trick is to NOT cancel the previous strike in case it still didn't register, though. **) If you were either running or tapped a directional key in one direction right before the inventory screen popped back up, you should be able to start running again after it closes with a single tap. 5) Do the rest of the kb jump like you normally do.
Posted: 11/20/2010 2:48 PM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
If it helps, here's what is the speed of +127: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14vpqGX9b4k And also here's the speed value of -128: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dZvPpa4SDc And when you watch the 2nd video, you'll notice there's a part where I fall into the moat, and "loop" in this level, but I don't think it'll be useful, because we need dash :P. As for the sound in the 2nd video, I'm assuming where the music changed, it was just a weird glitch.. Or maybe dying during cut scenes has weird effects.
Posted: 11/20/2010 4:28 PM
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groobo
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
You were able to loop because of where the camera was - that and nothing else. I knew that for some time now, but didn't bother to mention the conclusion of my research since I haven't found a way to force the camera to either stop following Dan or focusing on something else. You probably know about deactivating instances that are out of view, or in this game: out of range (since the actual direction the camera is facing is irrelevant); so I won't bother to explain WHY this works. I knew that some wierd shit occurs when you lock the camera away from where it should be during cutscenes with the free-look camera cheat (eg. in zarok's lair when you place the camera in the door you first came from right after you trigger the first cutscene, only your skeletons will spawn - that also explains why the enemies spawn if you get to close to the gates after gaining back control), but I didn't know that the game actually unloads ground or walls (maybe the ground under the water is a special case), since I couldn't move Dan in this state. Also, I was more curious what would happen if you overkill the speed, not just set it to max. Does it jump to a high negative value, goes down to 0, or what? Finding the right RAM address on the gauntlet would be a great idea at this point.
Posted: 11/20/2010 6:17 PM
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skychase
He/Him
Joined: 3/25/2007
Posts: 212
Location: Quebec, Canada
I'm curious, how far can you go in the Scarecrow field with this ? P
http://www.youtube.com/user/skychase2rebirth/
Posted: 11/20/2010 7:36 PM
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Torn338
Former player
Joined: 3/27/2010
Posts: 270
Haha okay, first off I'll do find the Gauntlet speed Address. Then find the Scarecrow Fields speed Address. Do a silly video for skychase messing around with it, and then mess around with the Gauntlet lol.. Idk, I'm silly I guess, cause now I'm interested in knowing that too >.> Edit: Okay, I've got the Gauntlet one recorded. Now I just need to encode it and put it on YouTube. Bad news is, I believe that each level is different so this may not apply to all levels, but for the Gauntlet. Increased Speed, has nothing to do with invisible walls, they'll still there, and impossible to go through, clipping as well, deals only with camera angle in the Gauntlet, unlike most games, MediEvil is an invisible wall castle, so clipping in the normal term, does not apply in this game. However, out of bounds walls, that are still within the bounds of the level (the early exit in the Gauntlet), can actually be passed through, to go out of bounds. So, you can put 2 and 2 together to figure out we can loop this thing, only part is we have to get past the exit trigger, and I believe with some manipulation of the inventory glitch, it's possible. Also, the dragon fire flames, is just an invisible wall with a fire effect. The dragon armor has the element of fire attached to it, that's why, when you walk in fire normally you're hurt and pushed, however, when you touch the dragon fire gate, you just sit there and get burnt. The fire is between, behind, and in front of the invisible wall, and so much that, if passed through you push beyond the invisible walls. This is, impossible to do, unless you have something that let's you pass the fire effect, that being the dragon armor. So, being pushed in through the gate, is impossible. The sides however, as still a different story, but, only if we can get out of bounds in that area. I'll be posting the video soon showing you what I mean exactly if you're confused. A good news thing is, you said if I could find a spot where it might be possible to clip through it and go under the map, and I've found a spot that is likely to allow us to do that :). Anyways, Skychase, I did actually do the Scarecrow level as well, I recorded it, but something messed up so i'll have to do it again. But, a thing is, the corn adds a negative speed onto your original speed, so give you a still moveable speed when you enter the corn. But, with ram hacking the speed, this doesn't apply, because the value is locked at +127. So, I sweep around the corn field, ninja speed style, and moon walking Michael Jackson style ;) , dodging the gremlins in the field. It's quite funny really, and I end it off by reading the sign "Keep out of the cornfield or death" thing lol.... ;) Well, I'll probably go through every single level and find the speed address's to check for clips and what not ;). Edit 2: Another thing... Are you sure that the train isn't the exit trigger in the time machine? I've fell behind the fence where the exit is... And I'm not exiting the level :S ????
Posted: 11/21/2010 12:32 AM
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groobo
Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 47
The exit trigger is in the gap between the raised parts of the track, all the way at the end. IIRC you can't reach it if you fall down on the track on either side, so you have to go straight into it when looping.
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