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Posted: 6/2/2010 10:01 AM
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Pasky13
Former player
Joined: 5/4/2005
Posts: 502
Location: Onett, Eagleland
If TASing was pure speed you'd see a lot less runs on here, it has to be entertaining as well. Seeing a bunch of RPG text in Japanese that I don't understand just isn't entertaining.
mz wrote:
I think translation patches aren't allowed because most of them don't work when emulation becomes more accurate... And we shouldn't keep supporting buggy emulators just because of this.
Huh? The translation patches work on real hardware. I've beaten mother 3 english on my GBA SP. Also, when has there ever been a game where a translation patch made it buggy or unplayable on an emulator? I'm not saying it's never happened, I really wanna know because I've never heard of anything like that.
I think.....therefore I am not Barry Burton
Posted: 6/2/2010 2:12 PM
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Kitsune
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
Personally, if a Japanese RPG has a 100% translation patch for it, I think the translation patch should be allowed to be used. It's really hard to follow along with the events in an RPG when you can't understand the language.
Posted: 6/2/2010 3:20 PM
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mz
Emulator Coder, Player (79)
Joined: 10/26/2007
Posts: 693
Pasky13 wrote:
Huh? The translation patches work on real hardware. I've beaten mother 3 english on my GBA SP.
I was never talking specifically about this patch. Even then, I'm pretty sure there might be two billion of tiny bugs you couldn't notice or something. It's kind of silly to have a TAS exploiting bugs that not even were present in the original release...
Pasky13 wrote:
Also, when has there ever been a game where a translation patch made it buggy or unplayable on an emulator? I'm not saying it's never happened, I really wanna know because I've never heard of anything like that.
95% of the translations for the SNES before bsnes came out, and 94% after it came out, including very recent ones (Mystic Ark?) And for the NES it might be worse, since all of them were made during the Nesticle days.... It's very easy to break support for real hardware when you're hacking a game and only testing it on an emulator. You've probably never heard of these because people these days never actually play these old games on real hardware. EDIT: Oh, you said emulators not real hardware... Er... I suppose everyone is still using ZSNES/Snes9x and Nesticle/FCEU. :P
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
Posted: 6/2/2010 5:17 PM
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blahmoomoo
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
There are some known issues with the patch, as described here, but all are minor and none of them are game breaking. For example, sometimes a gift box's sprite is replaced by a poison status sprite. But the present still works. However, the one issue that may be a bit of a problem is that occasionally the main text dialog slows down (which may or may not be lag). It probably has something to do with the current CPU load while the patch's sprite welding algorithm is running. (since the GBA can only have 128 sprites on screen, letters have to be welded together in sprites rather than one character per sprite, which was allowable in Japanese for obvious reasons) Mato optimized the sprite welding algorithm as best as he could, but this issue still appears every now and then. Avoiding this lag could be optimized in a TAS, but from the issues in that list, this is really the only one that should be worried about. Besides, if a game breaking glitch is discovered, it shouldn't be too difficult to check the Japanese ROM to see if the glitch exists there too.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Posted: 6/2/2010 5:19 PM
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scrimpeh
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Question is, what do we do if it turns out it doesn't work with the Japanese ROM?
Posted: 6/2/2010 5:28 PM
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blahmoomoo
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
Well, perhaps you don't use the trick? I recall there being a pipe glitch in Super Mario Land (2?) for the GB that was exploited at first, but was soon discovered to be an emulator glitch (not quite sure what the details were; perhaps the glitch caused a hardware fault, but the emulator didn't freeze like the hardware would have). In any case, the pipe glitch was forbidden from use and that is how we have our current run. I would think that a glitch caused by a translation patch should be handled the same way.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Posted: 6/2/2010 8:22 PM
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MUGG
Editor, Expert player (2375)
Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3940
Location: Germany
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I recall there being a pipe glitch in Super Mario Land (2?) for the GB that was exploited at first, but was soon discovered to be an emulator glitch (not quite sure what the details were; perhaps the glitch caused a hardware fault, but the emulator didn't freeze like the hardware would have). In any case, the pipe glitch was forbidden from use and that is how we have our current run.
Read here for the details. http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=131475#131475 I think that if a run is made using the (J) ROM and it syncs on the translation patch, then it should be allowed. Perhaps we could just use subtitles (but who would put subtitles into a 6 hour TAS?)...
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Posted: 6/2/2010 8:53 PM
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scrimpeh
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I doubt it's gonna sync that easily, given the various changes that had to be made to the game.
Posted: 6/2/2010 9:34 PM
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MUGG
Editor, Expert player (2375)
Joined: 5/15/2007
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Yeah, that was a rather general suggestion. I know of at least one NES game that had a translation patch which synced with a movie I made on the J ROM (nekketsu soccer league).
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Posted: 6/2/2010 9:35 PM
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NitroGenesis
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Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873
Another one: Splatter house - wanpaku graffiti. The published movie uses a Translation Patch.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Posted: 6/3/2010 4:12 AM
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blahmoomoo
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
Yeah, there's no way a TAS of Mother 3 would sync with both the J ROM and the translation patch. The text is revealed, rather than instantly visible. Therefore, English text generally would take longer to appear than the equivalent Japanese text (not that the speed is different *cough*OoT*cough*; it's just that Japanese is usually less verbose in terms of characters). That soccer league run probably synced because all of the translated text was put on the screen instantly.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Posted: 6/8/2010 12:07 AM
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sgeos
Joined: 5/28/2010
Posts: 10
I guess I don't see the point of a TAS of the patched English version. Shouldn't we assume that viewer of an RPG TAS is already familiar with the game? In that case, it would make sense for the viewer to initially play through the game using any English version if they can't manage Japanese, and then watch a Japanese version of the TAS. It shouldn't be hard to figure out what items or abilities are being used. The text is going to be scrolled quickly, and it's not like the viewer won't be able to make heads of tails of what is going on any more than any other TAS. To the extent equipment tricks are used, they can be documented. Just my 1/2 cent.
Posted: 6/10/2010 10:52 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Joined: 5/29/2004
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Couldn't someone who knows what all the text boxes mean make a subtitle track for the video?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 6/11/2010 7:54 AM
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Mastania
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Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 135
Location: Top of the pops
Or they could just submit the English version
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Posted: 6/12/2010 9:09 PM
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blahmoomoo
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
Now the 6 hour TAS of the English version (the one I brought up before) is available in a single video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZkL3JPgtnY
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Posted: 6/18/2010 4:01 PM
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Peachtotheinfinity
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 60
Location: None of Your Business, USA
The creatorof the TAS (sprocket) said that this winter he would be working on a new TAS. He expects it to be 40- 50 minutes faster. And in my opinion we should use the English version. But if someone who actually speaks Japanese and English would want to make subtitles, then I would say go on and make the Japanese TAS
Posted: 6/21/2010 8:38 PM
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Flygon
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
Making subtitles for a TAS of a 5-6 hour long video game is much harder than you think... there is a reason television uses paid agencies to translate half hour episodes of television shows. I say use the English version, for the sake of TASVideos not having to hire people specifically for the purpose of subtitling 5 hours worth of movie (Assuming demand for subtitles is that high).
Posted: 6/22/2010 7:33 PM
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RinKaenbyou
Joined: 6/22/2010
Posts: 44
Location: The Hell of Blazing Fires
I seriously do not believe a movie will sync at all between (J) and the translation patch, especially given the amount of absurd software lag around the name entry screen. (Unless this was fixed) Given the highly professional style of the translation however, I myself would still allow it, even under strict rules, because the patch is just so very well made. Subbing a gigantic movie can't be all that easy either, so this eliminates a lot of extra work. As for the TAS itself, I would most definitely love to see a published run here. We have Earthbound Zero and Earthbound, so why not? While we don't have an officially translated port like Zero, it's still a part of the series nonetheless and both enjoy healthy popularity.
This is only a little obsessive.
Posted: 7/16/2010 4:38 AM
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MUGG
Editor, Expert player (2375)
Joined: 5/15/2007
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The TAS is being redone. http://www.youtube.com/user/mother3tas
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Posted: 7/16/2010 8:19 AM
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Beergut
Joined: 3/7/2010
Posts: 12
Great looking TAS, but the sad part is that people who haven't played the game aren't going to get to watch the storyline unfold.
Posted: 7/16/2010 8:41 AM
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scrimpeh
Editor, Skilled player (1443)
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2114
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Does it have to? If you want to see the story unfold, you'd rather watch a Let's Play/Walktrhough or play the game yourself, wouldn't you? Anyway, I haven't watched the WIP yet. I wonder how much can be chopped off this time around.
Posted: 7/22/2010 4:19 PM
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Peachtotheinfinity
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 60
Location: None of Your Business, USA
Aggreed.
Posted: 7/22/2010 4:23 PM
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MUGG
Editor, Expert player (2375)
Joined: 5/15/2007
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I'd like to admit that I think it's kind of pointless to make a run on the English patch if you can't even read it. The text goes by at such a high speed, one needs to pause the videoplayer to read anything. I would be all for Japanese ROM and subtitles. The Japanese ROM also saves some time over the patch which would aid in shaving time off to get under the 5 hour mark. But the new mother 3 TAS already got started on the English patch and I don't think anyone would their time to add subtitles to a 5 hour movie.
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Posted: 7/22/2010 6:50 PM
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wekhter
Joined: 7/22/2010
Posts: 53
MUGG wrote:
I'd like to admit that I think it's kind of pointless to make a run on the English patch if you can't even read it. The text goes by at such a high speed, one needs to pause the videoplayer to read anything. I would be all for Japanese ROM and subtitles. The Japanese ROM also saves some time over the patch which would aid in shaving time off to get under the 5 hour mark. But the new mother 3 TAS already got started on the English patch and I don't think anyone would their time to add subtitles to a 5 hour movie.
Wouldn't it be even harder to read with the Japanese version, since the same amount of English text would have to fit in an even smaller timeframe? And in the English version I think the only things you really can't get fast enough are very short "obtained item" messages, but since most of the story text wraps around to multiple lines it's not bad (that is to say, stuff you have to read to know what's going on is also the easiest stuff to read).
Posted: 7/24/2010 8:50 AM
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MUGG
Editor, Expert player (2375)
Joined: 5/15/2007
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Location: Germany
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Wouldn't it be even harder to read with the Japanese version, since the same amount of English text would have to fit in an even smaller timeframe?
? Kanji usually is rendered faster onscreen than latin characters in many games. But I don't know if faster text speed would be a time-saver in Mother 3. At least the author is starting over with the Japanese ROM now due to improvements in Chapter 1 and 2, apparently. http://www.youtube.com/user/mother3tas The matter about readability is not about how hard it is to read something, because I can't read any of the dialogue even on the English patch.
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