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Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
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Although it's a bit too late for that, I wonder why you didn't do the equipment switch you do just before Kicker Skeleton somewhat earlier to make the Disc Armor fight a bit faster? Everything else seems excellent. I guess I will wait for the submission, because at the pace you're going it will be done by March. :)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 5/9/2008
Posts: 35
Location: USA
Seriously, Kriole, your WIPs are GREAT. Keep it up. I'm sure there are many of us lurkers following the thread enjoying your progress.
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Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
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moozooh wrote:
Although it's a bit too late for that, I wonder why you didn't do the equipment switch you do just before Kicker Skeleton somewhat earlier to make the Disc Armor fight a bit faster?
EDIT: There is no difference, Black Belt only adds overkill, while Bone Pillar is rendered pretty useless since it shares cooldown with Catoblepas.
moozooh wrote:
I guess I will wait for the submission, because at the pace you're going it will be done by March. :)
I actually believe it will be sooner than March. Probably in a week or two, the only hard part left is the Final Guard. Although I have a buttload of testing to do on Balore.
ntclark wrote:
Seriously, Kriole, your WIPs are GREAT. Keep it up. I'm sure there are many of us lurkers following the thread enjoying your progress.
Thank you, but sadly the Lubicants are probably the last thing I will show before submission. Unless I find something superawesome that I just need to show. So, I improved the Lubicants by a little over 100 frames. I found a funny glitch, if you merge a soul collect message and a level up message, the soul collect message disappears with the level up sign. I tried picking up the soul this way before, but this is the first I have managed to do so without taking damage. Pie Recorded on VBA v22
Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
Wouldn't it be faster to have the first Lubicant drop the soul and the second one the item? No waiting for the soul to home in. I guess the RNG just didn't play along?
m00
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Tub wrote:
Wouldn't it be faster to have the first Lubicant drop the soul and the second one the item? No waiting for the soul to home in. I guess the RNG just didn't play along?
Not really - Muramasa, or any weapon for that matter, is extremely rare. Much rarer than the soul even, so getting it this early is really lucky. Like I showed in the vbm that I posted, it is possible to pick up the Lubicant soul without any soultravel, which I thought to be impossible without taking damage. Also, getting the soul on the 2nd one allows for the soul collect/level up trick.
Experienced player (870)
Joined: 11/26/2007
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I finished Balore. Actually, I did so pretty long ago, but I brickwalled on the Final Sword. So I decided to redo the Balore fight and managed to save 6 additional frames over my first attempt. It also crossed my mind that the pause after Balore's death is an excellent place to manipulate RNG towards Final Sword without wasting any time. Pie It seems it is not possible trigger phase 2 before his second hit. I tried things such as starting with Great Armor then switching to Bone Pillar while on the fist, but still no dice. I have roughly 30 mana left after the Balore fight, it will all be used on the Final Guard. 13948 frames ahead of Atma.
Yrr
Joined: 8/10/2006
Posts: 289
Location: Germany, Bayern
Why did you actually use Nightmare soul on Balore? Aren't there stronger souls (Lightning Doll come to mind)? Besides, great run so far!
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Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
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Yrr wrote:
Why did you actually use Nightmare soul on Balore? Aren't there stronger souls (Lightning Doll come to mind)? Besides, great run so far!
When using Lightning Doll optimally one would use it twice in the first phase and once in the second. That equals 2x3x93+3x145 damage, which ends up at 993 damage. Nightmare does 3x2x115+2x169 damage, which equals 1028 and costs roughly 20 mana less, giving me an additional Killer Mantle hit on Final Guard. Lightning Dolls high mana cost is indeed very unfortunate. I did some very extensive tests on Final Guard and it turns out Muramasa can only hit once/swing when the Final Guard is doing anything but moving forward. This makes the Killer Mantle invaluable, since it does four times the damage a single swing from the Muramasa does, and saves about 42 frames/application.
Experienced player (870)
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I noticed that something was resetting the loottables for Final Guard; no matter what I did in the Arena, Final Guard always kept dropping things on the same frames. My guess is that either warps or area doors reset the loottables. Regardless, I used Nightmare on Final Guard instead, since it shuffles RNG like a madman. Thus, I managed to get the Final Sword with 0 delay. The fight is roughly 60 frames slower, but the Killer Mantle approach had the sword drop nearly 200 frames later. Pie
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Progress! :3 Graham is finished and I have reached the warp point leading to the Castle Corridor, 19130 frames ahead of Atma. I didn't even bother testing the Chaotic Realm for Hippogryph - I completely forgot about the Floating Gardens. Pie The Final Sword backdash cancel trick works on the... Succubi? Succubuses sounds weird. Regardless, getting both souls was unintentional. The constant turning off and on of Black Panther is to save mana without losing time.
Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
The correct word for those red-winged things is indeed "succubi". After your TAS, the correct word will be "extinct".
m00
Joined: 2/19/2010
Posts: 248
Hello, I've been on and off lurking since the days of nesvideos, so uhm hi! I've noticed something that might save time in the 100% soul run: L and R let you page-up or page-down in the soul and weapon menus. This would make switching souls (particularly during the Graham fight) a handful of frames faster. Also switching equipment may be faster too, I haven't looked to see how much filthy loot Soma ends up with in Kriole's run :) See here for an example of changing to the magic set on a character with all of the souls. Here is a frame-by-frame analysis: 41 S - and we're off! 52 A - enter soul menu 69 A - enter bullet souls 70 R - page down 73 R - page 76 > - right 77 v - down 79 R - page down 82 R - page down 85 R - page down 88 v - down 90 v - down 92 A - select flame demon 95 v - select guardian souls 98 A - enter guardian souls 99 R - page down 102 ^ - up 105 A - select giant bat 108 v - select enchant souls 111 A - enter enchant souls 112 R - page down 115 > - right 118 A - select succubus 121 B - out of soul menu 137 B - out of pause menu As you can see, when you scroll the menu, you generally have 2 empty frames before input will be recognised, while if you don't, you can get new input straight away. As a result, while flame demon and succubus are faster using R to page-down, giant bat is actually the same speed: [R..^..] takes 6 frames because of menu scrolling, while [v.v.v.] is three button presses but with no scrolling still takes 6 frames. I'm not sure why sometimes you can input on the immediate next frame (frame 77 above) and why sometimes you need to delay one frame (frame 79 or frame 92). I have also seen [R..R] (ie R, no input, no input, R) not recognised but [R..v] recognised in the same situation. There's some lag that I don't understand caused by this menu. I wonder if one or two frames can still be shaved off by reordering the menu commands. I hope this is helpful! EDIT: Uploaded the wrong video the first time.
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rhebus wrote:
I've noticed something that might save time in the 100% soul run: L and R let you page-up or page-down in the soul and weapon menus.
How come I do not know of this? One would think one would stumble upon this while playing unassisted, or even be told by someone. I feel pretty humbled, but I take solace in the fact that this will probably only save time in my 100% run. While the few frames it saves in the pause-screen are negligible in comparison to the technical inaccuracy, it is still considered a mistake and no doubt is frowned upon.
Joined: 2/19/2010
Posts: 248
Kriole wrote:
While the few frames it saves in the pause-screen are negligible in comparison to the technical inaccuracy,
To try to put some numbers on this, I just had a go and I can save 63 frames just on the switch to flame demon/giant bat/succubus in the Graham fight in your 100% run. There are a few other opportunities for this scale of saving (chronomage for sky fish, valkyrie before legion, nightmare after legion), so while this probably isn't as big as technical accuracy savings, I wouldn't say it's negligible. I would guess the savings over the whole run might be 200-400 frames.
Kriole wrote:
it is still considered a mistake and no doubt is frowned upon.
The 100% souls run is still all of teh awesome. I would never have played AoS if I hadn't seen it. I actually prefer it in terms of entertainment over your new Any%, despite the technical improvements - it's nice to see more souls getting an outing. It would be crazy to frown upon a TAS just because improvements were found in it later. By the way, what's the difference between bone pillar and catoblepas in terms of movement? Bone pillar uses more MP I can see - does it let you cancel faster or change RNG faster or something?
Yrr
Joined: 8/10/2006
Posts: 289
Location: Germany, Bayern
Btw, I think I found a small mistake in your any%-run, Kriole. At around 61000 frames (room with the Axe Armor) you can actually jump over AA without attacking while taking no damage. This avoids the need of using backdash to cancel the swing.
Experienced player (870)
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I've been thinking of redoing my all-souls run. Should it still be from SRAM? If so, normal or hard? However powerful Soma becomes in the all-souls run, the differences between normal and hard are negligible at best. The only bigger difference is that the enemies are sturdier. So for maximum flow, SRAM + normal difficulty would be the most optimal setting. I would love some input from others before I start the project.
Joined: 8/7/2006
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Don't the rules require you to play on the Hardest difficulty possible? Regardless, Normal sounds fine to me.
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New All souls run would be something I'm definitely gonna look forward too. SRAM is fine as it is. Iirc, it means you can skip the cutscenes, which is a big plus. I would say that you should stick with hard difficulty, as it allows for easier comparison to the previous movie. Normal difficulty would however also be fine with me.
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I've been thinking, and I'm gonna go with hard. Upon reflection, the only substantial difference would be Balore. Other than that, it would only be minor frames saved here and there. Irregardless, I'm hoping to save atleast 2 minutes of time, if not more. And I'm also gonna share a secret. In my first run, I miss a hit on the Arc Demon. Think it was a savestate mess-up, noticed this only after the run was finished. Made me cry.
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Glad you went with hard — lack of cutscenes makes the run a lot more enjoyable than otherwise.
Kriole wrote:
Irregardless, I'm hoping to save atleast 2 minutes of time, if not more.
But how? Anyway, hoping style won't suffer. (There's no such word as "irregardless".)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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moozooh wrote:
Glad you went with hard — lack of cutscenes makes the run a lot more enjoyable than otherwise.
You actually only need SRAM to skip cutscenes, you can skip them on normal too.
moozooh wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Irregardless, I'm hoping to save atleast 2 minutes of time, if not more.
But how? Anyway, hoping style won't suffer.
Around 3000 for skipping Claimh Solais (no, it does NOT save time in Chaos. I'm a moron.), about 800 for Graham, 300-400 for Balore, around a 1000 for better pausescreens (less frequency and utilizing the L and R trick rhebus pointed out) and much for optimization and a better understanding of the RNG.
moozooh wrote:
(There's no such word as "irregardless".)
Ah. I actually ment regardless, using irregardless is apparently a bad habit of mine. But the word does exist... somewhat, even if the word itself makes no sense.
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First take on Creaking Skull Pie The fight will most likely be redone, gonna check if I can't have him move backwards instead of just stopping dead in his tracks. 26 frames ahead of my old run thus far. Also, getting Axe Armor this early made me happy. In my first run, the first 2 weeks out of the 2 months of work were spent on him alone. I'm going to WIP fairly often, due to the massive amount of brickwalls early on.
Joined: 2/19/2010
Posts: 248
Kriole wrote:
First take on Creaking Skull Pie
Hooray for pie! \o/ Good luck with your run. We're all counting on you.
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Still, I would like to see a glitched "100% souls" run better. But this is good enough to me.
Kriole wrote:
rhebus wrote:
I've noticed something that might save time in the 100% soul run: L and R let you page-up or page-down in the soul and weapon menus.
How come I do not know of this? One would think one would stumble upon this while playing unassisted, or even be told by someone.
Oops, I neglected that menu navigation thing, too, during watching your old WIPs. Relieved to see that be fixed this time.
Kriole wrote:
I've been thinking of redoing my all-souls run. Should it still be from SRAM? If so, normal or hard? However powerful Soma becomes in the all-souls run, the differences between normal and hard are negligible at best. The only bigger difference is that the enemies are sturdier. So for maximum flow, SRAM + normal difficulty would be the most optimal setting. I would love some input from others before I start the project.
If it were from SRAM in Normal Mode, I could promise you my best effort. Edit: To clarify things, the preceding statement should be interpreted as a "should not do" warning.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
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klmz wrote:
Still, I would like to see a glitched "100% souls" run better. But this is good enough to me.
Weren't you and Pirate_Sephiroth working on one? Your post in the allsouls submission suggested that. And I'm pretty sure that I lack the experience to pull off a glitched run. I have little to no knowledge about glitch-teleports. I'll maybe take my time to learn more about this after this run. I finished everything up and including the Skeleton Knight. I skipped the Skeleton Archer soul because I brickwalled (couldn't even get the soul to appear). There are several opportunities to get this soul, and it has pretty high droprate so it should be fine to skip it. Pie
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