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Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=883&start=480 You could at least have used the scroll function... Soulrivers and I were working on the run before. But have it on hold. If you want to try to do it, be my guest. Have fun :).
Joined: 1/25/2009
Posts: 29
Location: Finland
:O
still a nooby in speedrunning
Joined: 10/1/2007
Posts: 52
I'm not able to get any of those 3 URL's to work, and I really want to see that WIP.
Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332
You have to change the URLs into valid Microstorage links. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1459389776/randomname.vbm
Joined: 10/1/2007
Posts: 52
Thank you much. I'm a little unfamiliar with Microstorage.
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 20
So...is this TAS on extended hiatus, or truly cancelled? If cancelled, I might consider doing a run myself, using the info gathered in this thread over the last several years. It only took me about 10 minutes to get the hang of pit walking.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Swordless is going to continue, probably redo together with me, Oracle of Ages once his Link's Awakening run is done. He was also working on OoS with me but because of crappy manipulation, that one is on hold currently until I don't know when. If you want to try be my guest. But TASing these games is a pain in the ass, just so you know :).
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 20
So, if it's not too much trouble, could you possibly give me a brief summary of what you know about luck manipulation in this game so far? Really the only things I'm concerned with right now are Maple, enemy spawning and enemy drops. As far as I can tell, the major factor in determing what Maple drops is the number of screens traveled. As for enemy drops, I've been getting pretty mixed results. What do you know about this so far? I haven't experimented with enemy spawning at all yet. I'm not ready for a test run yet, I'm currently just in the middle of a slow run to get reacquainted with the game. I haven't played Seasons in ages (pun intended). In fact, I'm still trying to decide whether to do a TAS of it or not. EDIT: Also, what do you currently estimate the length of the run to be, based on the planning you did before?
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
For enemy manipulation: Nearly all manipulation in the game is based on your amount of sword slashes: Where enemies spawn, where they walk and they will drop. Some enemies are also manipulated through your movement, some moblins, and what frame you enter the screen. Maple isn't anything you need to care about in a Seasons run at least. She appears after you have killed 30 enemies and the drops depends on a lot of things, that I'm not 100% sure of yet. A run of Seasons would probably be around 1:45 and Ages 2:30. Rough estimates though.
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 20
Ah. The reason I mentioned Maple is that at one point you mentioned the possibility of taking a Lvl 3 Power Ring from her to shave off some time. But the time it would take to make her do that might almost not be worth it. I know that when Maple appears is determined by the enemies (though I forgot it was 30 kills). I was talking about manipulating her drops. Thank you very much. That was a lot of very good information.
Tompa
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Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Nah, I have never said that you could get a Lvl 3 power ring from her, as that one is only available in Hero's Cave if you do linked game in Seasons. You can however get the Green Ring, which will increase your sword power and you'll take less damage. In Ages the Power Ring Lvl 1 is obtained in the first dungeon. If we were able to manipulate the Green Ring first time you see Maple, as well as getting the potion at the same time, that would be faster. I'm not sure of how many different rings that Maple could drop, probably around 30, and to be able to manipulate the Green Ring would be a real pain...
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 20
Whoops, excuse me, I meant Level 2, not Level 3.
Tompa wrote:
In my Speedrun, and also the testrun, I am taking the Power Ring lvl 1 from dungeon 1. I'm quite sure that this one will save time. Because many bosses can be killed in less cycles than before. Quite a lot actually. But to manipulate Maple to drop Power Ring Lvl 2 instead would save a lot more time, both because it is stronger but also because you don't need to take the small detour to get the Power Ring lvl 1. And as you have to meet Maple to get the Magic Potion, this won't take so much time at all. It takes around 20 second to appraise it at Vasu. And it will be a lot faster to have that ring indeed. It's free to appraise the ring as well so you don't need to get more rupees either... But I'm not so sure how hard it really is to manipulate Maple to drop it, sadly... But you shall indeed try! Someone of you.
See, I previously misread your talk of getting the Potion and a ring off of her as being part of the Seasons run, when it was in fact part of the Ages run. That was my misunderstanding, sorry. That's why I brought it up. But as you said, it's not neccessary in Seasons. It might still be beneficial, though. I've had much success in manipulating Maple, but it involves controlling the number of screens you travel, sometimes by walking back and forth on the border of two screens. But I'm not sure the detour is worth it for the Power boost.
Experienced player (504)
Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 682
Don't waste your time with these games. They seriously aren't worth the frustration. I spent about two years working on OoA and only got about halfway through it, and then Tompa found a huge sequence break nearer the start, so I'm going to have to redo it all anyway. Him and I are planning to coauthor OoA after I finish LADX, so it should hopefully be more managable with us both working on it.
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 20
Yes, but Oracle of Ages is a significantly longer game than Oracle of Seasons. You're probably right. I haven't even set my mind on doing a run yet, I was just considering it.
Experienced player (504)
Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 682
Yes, but Oracle of Ages is a significantly longer game than Oracle of Seasons. Tompa and Soulrivers were working on OoS for almost as long as I was working on OoA, and never got past the start of the second dungeon. The only way you could get through either of these games in a reasonable amount of time would be to half-ass the manipulation, which would (hopefully) result in an instant rejection if submitted here.
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 20
Has anyone tried to find the game's RNG in memory? Finding that and seeing all the variables could make manipulation a lot easier. Then it wouldn't just be trial and error, you'd be able to predict beforehand what the results would be. Having said that, I have no idea how to go about finding the RNG.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Oh my, I wonder what I was thinking when writing that Maple could drop the Power Ring Lvl 2, haha. There have been at least 10 different authors that have tried to TAS these games. An unoptimized two hours run of Oracle of Seasons was submitted back in 2005. The rest (except Swordless' OoA run) hasn't reached past more than at most two dungeons (Dezbeast in the lead by entering the third dungeon in OoS). Most of these haven't been too optimized and people have easily given up. Dezbeast's run Soulrivers and my version Swordless' attempt These are the three worthy OoS WIPs, latest one being the most optimised obviously. So if you want to give it a try, be my guest=P.
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 20
To clarify, Maple CAN drop the lvl 2 Power Ring. It's the lvl 3 that she apparently can't drop. I accidentally said lvl 3 before, so I guess I got us both mixed up. :P I'm really thinking I'm not going to do a run, if the luck manipulation is really as frustrating as all that.
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 20
Wow I've only checked out Dezbeasts's unoptimized run so far, but even so I'm impressed. I literally burst out laughing at how he handled Rosa. Literally moving in time to the music while he waited, and weaving around and close to her in ways that were like "how does she not see him?" It was hilarious. Anyway, this will probably be my last post in this thread.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I was bored the other day, so I started a run of Hero's Cave in the linked Oracle of Seasons run. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/434356227/Hero%27sCaveTAS.vbm It's not too optimised, as I just did it for fun. I'll probably do the same thing with Oracle of Ages as well.
Twisted_Eye
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Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 632
Location: Seattle, WA
So I recently played through both games and greatly enjoyed them, so I've been tossing around TAS ideas. You're absolutely right about that manipulation being a pain in the keister, though I'd love to give a try when I get more time. Planning is what I've been working on now, mostly. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/620532313/ZeldaOoS-TE-1%20-%20Copy%20%281%29%20-%20Copy%20%281%29.vbm I'm thinking a linked run would be my goal. Cutting out the mostly uneventful non-linked Hero's Cave while adding a fuller ending and some littler events partways through would make for a better watch I think, especially for people who've only played the normal way. Looking around, I found that a password of all capital N's works, but it was non-linked. Doodling around with the password generator linked earlier, I discovered that to change the qualities of a password you only need to change one or two letters to randomly find a working password, so I tested several combinations using only letters that are one direction away from capital N, and eventually found one that was a Linked, Hero's Secret game! So the most important planning step now is to decide what animal to be my buddy. That password gave Moosh. Changing the 6th-to-last character to a right-arrow gives Dmitri, and with a little testing I could find one for Ricky. Each one moves differently and an entire chunk of the game's landscape is completely different depending on the buddy you get. VGMaps details It seems clear to me that Dmitri is the best to get--after getting the flippers, calling him would be unnecessary, unless his swimming is faster than Link's. Manipulating the 80 rupees necessary to free him from Moblins might be tricky, but there's a staircase under a burnable tree one screen right of the first dungeon with an old man that gives 100, so the easy solution is there, I just don't know how much better it'd be for time. Thoughts? Anything else I should know about? I'm guessing finding a similar set of passwords for Ages would be a similar endeavor, just finding anything that works that's quick to enter would be the tricky part. --Found an equivalent password for Ages: NNNbN NNNNN NNNNN NN-NQ. I assume this is a Moosh password, a slight change will give Dmitri and another, Ricky. Changing 6th-from-last to Left Arrow works, not sure which is which yet. Either I find the Mem Address or I play the game until I know! Work either way ha
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Dimitri is indeed fastest when it comes to the animal regions in both the games. It is possible to dig up a 100 rupee, but that would most likely be a pain to manipulate, but it is doable. I wonder how many secrets that are actually worth getting. As you'll have to talk to the person who gives you the secret to Ages before you can use it in Seasons, even though you know the code. Which means that the secret to upgrade the sword will be useless to get, as you need to go through half of Hero's Cave to get it. Secrets that could be obtainable easily (And has a use) are: Ring Box secret, the secret to upgrade the amount of seeds and one to get all the rings. I guess I could help you plan out the use of bombs and seeds if neccesary, as I have done that before anyway. When it comes to manipulation stuff. Some manipulation can be changed by entering the screen later, that is however rather rare. Slashing the sword is what works best, but slows you down for the most of the time. One trick is to slash another time when you need to slash anyway, like the bushes before the first dungeon. I did a lot of hex editing to include slashes earlier in the run to see if it changed the manipulation later on. If you need any help or so, I'll be happy to provide it. Good luck with the run!
Twisted_Eye
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Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 632
Location: Seattle, WA
I tried slashing while waiting for the Maku tree but it didn't seem to affect the later manipulation. Good idea about slashing at the bush though. I wasn't planning on using secrets, I figured them too close to passwords and thus unpublishable. Technically I could just plop down a fully loaded Ring Secret and whip out the Power Ring lvl 3 right there or some such. It'd be a hell of a lot of trial and error, and anyway I think that would be taken as cheating. --Actually it might not be trial and error, since both games' passwords start with NNN (meaning they probably have the same seed) I wonder if they'll accept each other's secrets after all, hmm. But yeah it won't go in the run. Good thinking about the 100 rupee dig-up. Sounds just about perfect.
Twisted_Eye
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Active player (398)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 632
Location: Seattle, WA
What a horrible day. I accidentally recorded over Swordless Link's most optimized run, and Microstorage isn't working so I can't get a replacement copy. Further, I lost my spreadsheet of our comparitive times so I can't even go off of that. Here's what I have so far, it's a megaupload link unfortunately: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Y4K85FJS Up to the first miniboss, if you only include the parts where our runs are directly comparable, I'm a small handful of frames ahead, but I'm sure I lose it in the miniboss. I have a plan to make the Boss Key room easy to manipulate, but I decided not to continue because if I redo the miniboss fight to get any lost frames back, I'd have to redo all the manipulation anyway. That's been the worst part: All the redoing. I did a run all the way through the miniboss to see how well I did without comparing to Swordless, then I started over to beat that, THEN I started over because I realized manipulating rupees off the keeses was a worthy endeavor, THEN I redid it again to get more damage boosts. If you can see anywhere to get more frames let me know, but, if I may, I'm done with everything up to the first miniboss. It's been two weeks, the pain can stop. I'm still curious about some other planning things. Noble sword is a yes? Get the Cuccodex when in town next, the rest of it shouldn't be out of the way to get I assume? --Actually getting the Ghastly Doll before visiting the house where you get the Iron Bowl would be tricky, having to kill 30 monsters to make Maple appear quickly so that Link doesn't have to backtrack. I guess it's not too hard if she doesn't appear after the first dungeon, but then killing 30 to make her appear after the second to get the Power Ring Lvl. 2 would be a goal to look into. The rest of the trade chain is right along the route anyway I believe. I figured from the start that the hardest part would be comparing to Swordless's most up-to-date run. Now I understand better what the optimization entails, I'd like to pretend to think that the rest of the run wouldn't be painful, just arduous. These two games are just so deserving of TASes, it must happen.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Previously, I didn't write anything about your WIP, sorry about that. This time, I decided to check it a bit further, trying to improve parts and comparing them with the other run. I'm not saying that you need to redo for the improvements I'll mention, but so that you will try even harder next time :). It's faster to talk to Din from the side instead, saves two frames. Two frames could have been saved by not walking on the stairs so much before the Maku Tree. When walking diagonal against a mine cart, you can get a corner boost. This would have saved a frame before getting the bombs. Slashing before the last damage before the miniboss room would have given you a boost upwards. That + better movement around the bushes would have saved about four frames. And currently, the boss fight is 44 frames slower than previous run. The trick is to get a double hit with the bomb, as it does more damage than the sword. I must say, you got very nice manipulation in the dungeon. It's all about luck :D. You don't need to do any trading sequences to get the Noble Sword in OoS. The trading only gives you the combination you need to walk in the woods, but if you know it already you can just go and get it. Even though it sucks, you should watch my speedrun of OoS:). I should do some calculations to see if it really is faster to get the sword, and how much it would save by taking it. I have long doubt that it's faster to get the Power Ring L-1 in OoA as well, but yeah...
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