I know what you mean, but you shouldn't see it this way. The lists aren't that rigid, as the number of stars for each category can vary, and could theoretically even be 0. If some pretty weak runs are making their way on the starlist because of this, then feel free to suggest which group should have fewer, or even no stars assigned to them.
I think these lists enable will create a bit of variety to start out with at least. I don't plan that if a TAS that is suited for a star comes along, to categorize it in a list first, and then remove a star from that list... so you shouldn't see it as something rigid like that.
The thing is I'm not really sure if the problem is with the defined categories; what's contained within the lists or the number of stars assigned to each section. They're is a lot of innovative categories you could have such as "2 player movies"; "movies with restrictions"; "severely glitched" and "demonstration*", but it is important that the movies are star material and not just considered the best within it's selected category.
* That particular example is admittedly very arbitrary and runs suggested would likely to be controversial
I know what you mean, but you shouldn't see it this way. The lists aren't that rigid, as the number of stars for each category can vary, and could theoretically even be 0. If some pretty weak runs are making their way on the starlist because of this, then feel free to suggest which group should have fewer, or even no stars assigned to them.
I think these lists enable will create a bit of variety to start out with at least. I don't plan that if a TAS that is suited for a star comes along, to categorize it in a list first, and then remove a star from that list... so you shouldn't see it as something rigid like that.
The thing is I'm not really sure if the problem is with the defined categories; what's contained within the lists or the number of stars assigned to each section. They're is a lot of innovative categories you could have such as "2 player movies"; "movies with restrictions"; "severely glitched" and "demonstration*", but it is important that the movies are star material and not just considered the best within it's selected category.
* That particular example is admittedly very arbitrary and runs suggested would likely to be controversial
Like I said, these current TASes were chosen not on the basis of their groups, but the groups were formed on the basis of individual star suggestions (before there was even any talk about groups. If you insists, I could list for each TAS which people suggested it. The fact that you might disagree with their choices is perfectly fine... just post the reasons why you think certain runs do not deserve to be listed at all.
I really haven't heard an even remotely good argument why this concept of choosing stars is bad. If you have a problem with either a TAS, a group, or an assigned number of stars, then just say so.... I think I made this pretty clear at the top of the post with the groups...
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
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Baxter wrote:
I really haven't heard an even remotely good argument why this concept of choosing stars is bad.
He just gave you an argument: Grouping the movies then assigning one of them a star results in picking the best of the group, which may not necessarily be a star quality movie as a result. You may not agree with it, and it may not be reason enough to form these groups, but it is an argument nonetheless.
I really haven't heard an even remotely good argument why this concept of choosing stars is bad.
He just gave you an argument: Grouping the movies then assigning one of them a star results in picking the best of the group, which may not necessarily be a star quality movie as a result. You may not agree with it, and it may not be reason enough to form these groups, but it is an argument nonetheless.
Well, yeah... but like I said good argument. I think it's a bad argument because is someone is of the opinion that a bad movie will get a star with the current groups, then just say how stars should be distributed over groups, or if certain groups should be created or deleted. DrJones seemed to get this idea:
DrJones wrote:
N64 (1 Star) -1 star
Mario 64 0 stars is enough to represent this category, and it also has links to the more-complete runs in its description. No need to star the others, too. : P
Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 399
Location: New England
A few random opinions...
5% of the published movie count seems like a good figure to me, and it makes sense that the population of starred movies can grow with the site content.
I'd like to see a "puzzle/strategy" category, even were it to get just 1 star. That would give a more natural context for games like Arkanoid, Monopoly, Lolo, and (upcoming) Lemmings to compete in.
I guess I don't quite understand the rationale for "instant stars,"...does it just mean "really, really great runs?" I would prefer to see all starred runs categorized in some more substantial way.
As for Metroid, I won't argue for Metroid any% since I'm biased, but I tend to feel SM 100% is just too long, and 6% too repetitive; I'd much prefer the SM any% prior to the X-ray glitch (either in-game or real-time) get a star.
I'd agree with those who argue against the wire-TAS category; it seems a bit too weird/narrow, though I definitely feel one or more of those runs are star-worthy, especially bionic commando.
Overall, I'm very happy to see the stars system back online, and hopefully a bit more transparent/dynamic than before. Great job!
PS I take it back, Metroid any% is the BEST RUN EVER!!!! ;)
Gradius I kinda like, but I think that a run where you must push it to the limits in order to make art isn't as good as a game that naturally is artistic and varied.
so it's better to show that cool games to watch are cool games to watch than to show that boring games to watch can be turned into cool games to watch.
what?
Do you mean to say "it's better to show that cool movies can be made from cool games to watch than to show that cool movies can be made from boring games to watch"?
EDIT 2: I'd say that the quotation was quite confusing and/or deceiving.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Joined: 6/5/2006
Posts: 188
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Instant stars (4 Stars)SMB3 any%
Excitebike
Super Mario 64 "0 star"
Gradius
The only thing I kind of disagree with here is Gradius, while the playing around is hilarious, it stops being so long before the run ends. Simply, it's too long.
Super Mario World (1 Star)Super Mario World "small only"
Super Mario World any%
Super Mario World 96exit
Super Demo World 120exit
I'm kind of torn between any% and small only here, but I have to give it to the any% for being more consistently entertaining. Small only has great moments when it's forced to do amazing things to overcome it's limits, but these are too few and far apart.
Sonic (2 Stars)Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic The Hedgehog
Sonic The Hedgehog 2
S3nK and SA2 definitely. Sonic 1 lacks in speed due to the lack of the spindash and Sonic 2 is too similar to S3.
Metroid (2 Stars)Super Metroid 100%
Metroid Zero mission 100%
Metroid any%
I'm not sure Metroid deserves 2 stars, really. And at the risk of sounding biased I have say I prefer my MZM 100%. It has a lot better pacing and looks more clean, though SM is more known, is faster and more fluent during actual gameplay and appears more broken in general (arm pumping mostly), for better and worse.
I really don't think the original is suited for a star though.
Megaman (1 Star)Mega Man 1
Mega Man 2
Megaman 1, though I prefer MM2 as a game, the run for 1 is simply broken to ridiculousness.
Zelda (1 Star)Legend of Zelda
A Link to the Past
Links Awakening DX
I don't care enough for these runs to make a statement.
Castlevania (2 Stars)Castlevania
Castlevania: HoD
Castlevania: CotM
Super Castlevania IV
While I don't think both HoD and CotM deserve a star, I don't really think the other two are that good.
I'll say HoD and the original here.
Wire TAS (1 Star)Ninja Five-0
Umihara Kawase
Spiderman 3
Bionic Commando
I haven't seen Ninja Five-0, but out of the other three Umihara Kawase is a definite winner because it's more tricksy, Spiderman is mostly just fast and BC doesn't swing enough as opposed to just grappling and releasing.
Special concept (2 Stars)MMX+MMX2 (2 games with one input)
Kings Bounty (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Monopoly (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Nightmare on Elmstreet “4player” (4 players)
Lost Vikings (3 players)
River City Ransom (playaround)
MMX/2 is a definite, it represents what I really like about TASing, doing crazy innovative stuff. And beating a game with half a second worth of gameplay is hilarious :D. King's Bounty is still one of the movies I show to people who are unfamiliar to TASing to show the potential of it (others include but are not limited to: SM64 0 star, Megaman 1 and Sonic Advance 2).
NES games (3 Stars)Ninja Gaiden 2
Darkwing Duck
Mega Man 5
Gimmick!
Super Mario Bros 2
Journey to Silius
Batman
Arkanoid “Warpless”
Battle of Olympus
Legend of Zelda 2
Battletoads “2 player warpless”
I don't keep up with NES games nearly enough to make this call. So no comment.
SNES games (2 Stars)Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island
Rockman and Forte "100 CDs"
Sparkster
Donkey Kong Country 1 any%
Biker Mice from Mars
The Mask
This is kind of tricky. Yoshi is great but way too long. Biker Mice from Mars is insanely fast, but has camera problems(for better and worse). Haven't seen Sparkster, the DKC games don't really make for good runs IMO. And The Mask was kind of... I dunno, uninteresting.
I'd say R&F and Biker Mice.
Genesis (1 Star)Gunstar Heroes “ 2 player”
Ecco (which run?)
Dynamite headdy
Golden Axe
Comix Zone
Gunstar Heroes without question.
N64 (1 Star)Majora’s Mask
Goldeneye
Mischief Makers
Super Mario 64 120 star
I feel this should really be a 3D game, so Mishcief Makers is out. We already have a SM64 run with the instant stars. Goldeneye honestly doesn't interest me in the slightest, though I can see how people would like it.
But Majora's Mask stand out for me as a shining pillar of awesome :D.
Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?
I nominate the Metroid Fusion "100%" that is being published. Judging from the ratings, it's better appreciated than the published MZM "100%", even with lots of "unnecessary" dialogues.
EDIT: And it shows the "linar" Metroid, which is different enough from Super Metroid.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
I nominate the Metroid Fusion "100%" that is being published. Judging from the ratings, it's better appreciated than the published MZM "100%", even with lots of "unnecessary" dialogues.
EDIT: And it shows the "linar" Metroid, which is different enough from Super Metroid.
I'll add this to an updated list, which I will post shortly.
I'll post a tentative list of the groups and how many stars there might be reserved for the groups. Nothing is final or anything. I will be happy to hear suggestions for:
- Adding/removing/changing groups
- Adding/removing TASes to existing groups
- Changing the number of stars reserved for groups
- Anything you feel is important/overlooked
Opinions about movies in the group and which one should get a star is obviously also appreciated.
With the current, tentative, amount of stars assigned to the groups, there are a total of 23 stars, which is one more than the current amount (although currently Super Metroid doesn't have a star). Adding one or two might be possible.
Instant stars (4 Stars)SMB3 any%
Excitebike
Super Mario 64 "0 star"
Gradius
I disagree with Excitebike being auto-starred. I think that there are much better star candidates available these days. I would suggest Gunstar Heroes, and Super Metroid 100% as possible replacements. Additionally, it seeems perhaps unfair that two games from the same series get autostarred here. I'd remove both mario games from the instant star list, and put them together into a 3-star "mario" category which includes smb1, smb2, smb3, air, mario adventure, smw, sdw, and mario 64.
Baxter wrote:
Super Mario World (1 Star)Super Mario World "small only"
Super Mario World any%
Super Mario World 96exit
Super Demo World 120exit
This may be controversial, I'm not sure any super mario world movies are starworthy. I'd rather have a star for the warpless SMB3. I think all the mario movies should be lumped into a 3-star category for consideration.
Baxter wrote:
Sonic (2 Stars)Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic The Hedgehog
Sonic The Hedgehog 2
I'd have to choose Sonic 2 and Sonic Advance 2, from this list.
Baxter wrote:
Special concept (2 Stars)MMX+MMX2 (2 games with one input)
Kings Bounty (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Monopoly (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Nightmare on Elmstreet “4player” (4 players)
Lost Vikings (3 players)
River City Ransom (playaround)
King's Bounty and Lost Vikings. the MMX dualrun would be my third vote if there were 3 stars to give.
Baxter wrote:
NES games (3 Stars)Ninja Gaiden 2
Darkwing Duck
Mega Man 5
Gimmick!
Super Mario Bros 2
Journey to Silius
Batman
Arkanoid “Warpless”
Battle of Olympus
Legend of Zelda 2
Battletoads “2 player warpless”
Shouldn't Mega Man 5 be in the Mega Man category?
I'd also put SMB2 in the super mario bros series category (but I'd vote for it there).
Of the remainder, I vote for Gimmick and Silius.
Baxter wrote:
SNES games (2 Stars)Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island
Rockman and Forte "100 CDs"
Sparkster
Donkey Kong Country 1 any%
Biker Mice from Mars
The Mask
Sparkster and BMFM.
Baxter wrote:
Genesis (1 Star)Gunstar Heroes “ 2 player”
Ecco (which run?)
Dynamite headdy
Golden Axe
Comix Zone
well, I suggested Gunstar heroes going in the instant star, so obviously I favor that.
But... aren't there some games missing from this list? I thought you said on IRC that Rocket Knight Adventures was under consideration?
Baxter wrote:
N64 (1 Star)Majora’s Mask
Goldeneye
Mischief Makers
Super Mario 64 120 star
I think the 0 star SM64 is the only star-worthy movie on N64. There should be a general GBA category here instead.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
My version, with different categories as well. No shoe-in stuff like "instant stars", and the serial games picks are not among the platform picks.
Playarounds (2 stars)River City Ransom
Gunstar Heroes
Gradius
Mortal Kombat II
Mortal Kombat IV
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 (?)
These movies are more focused on entertaiment than those going for lowest completion time primarily, yet they are in absolute minority compared to the latter. So let's take them into consideration as a separate category.
My personal picks are Gradius and Gunstar Heroes. The former is a brillian example of how far you can push the boundary of entertainment value considering the restrictions of the game itself. Gunstar Heroes, on the other hand, is open to all sorts of things, and is being used that way to bring forward the ultimate entertainment.
Notable Luck Manipulation (2 stars)King's Bounty
4 CPU Monopoly
Pokemon Blue
Dragon Warrior
Shining Force
Final Fantasy I
Arkanoid warpless
Tetris (any of them)
This category is mainly aimed at games that have luck as their main progression obstacle, which mainly includes RPGs and puzzles (but I didn't want to limit it with only RPGs and puzzles).
I haven't watched all of these games' TASes since they bore me alot, so my picks are King's Bounty and Arkanoid.
Wire TAS (1 star)Ninja Five-0
Umihara Kawase short
Umihara Kawase sightseeing
Spiderman 3
Bionic Commando
Wire physics make a good choice for TASing.
My pick is either Umihara short (because it's, well, short and sweet), or Ninja 5-0 (most awesome of the bunch, with advanced physics that SM3 and BC lack). The latter is being improved at the moment, so it has a good chance of ending up even more awesome than it is.
Special concept (1 star)MMX+MMX2 dualrun
NES MM quadrun
Nightmare on Elm Street 4-player
SMB sidestroller
These are rare, and not necessarily entertaining, but they show what is otherwise unheard of. My pick is the MMX dualrun.
Mario series (3 stars)SMB2 any%
SMB3 any%
SMB3 warpless
SNES SMB3 glitchfest
SMW any%
SMW small-only
SMW 96-exit
SDW any%
SDW 120-exit
Yoshi's Island full any%
SM64 0-star
SM64 120-star
Popular series, many games that arguably lend themselves for TASing, many good runs made, etc.
0-star SM64 is by itself awesome, and it's vastly different from the unassisted runs due to how well the game lends itself for TASing (enough so that it's near-impossible to complete the game under remotely similar conditions when unassisted). SMB3 any%, on the other hand, is barely faster under TAS conditions, most of the run is autoscrolling, there are little to no new glitches that are easily noticeable to newcomers. That aside, it has a very high rating, SMB3 is one of the most popular games ever, there's Morimoto's run to bring additional attention to it, et voila: there's not a single rational reason left to have it starred. SMW doesn't have all of these drawbacks, but doesn't have all of SM64's advantages either. My personal picks would be SMB2 any%, SDW any%, and SM64 0-star.
Sonic series (2 stars)Sonic The Hedgehog
Sonic The Hedgehog 2
Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic CD
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic Advance 3
Perhaps the most prominent series in regards to TASing, so 2 stars are fully warranted.
And I propose Sonic 2 and SA2. The reason is simple: between the long-and-not-so-fast-paced run (Sonic 1, SA3) and the utterly-broken-glitchfest (S3&K, SA1), both show a great balance, and are both a treat to the eye.
Metroid series (2 Stars)Metroid any%
Metroid II glitched
Metroid II 100%
Super Metroid glitched
Super Metroid ingame any%
Super Metroid 100%
Metroid Fusion 100%
Metroid Zero mission 100%
Another prominent series with many runs, so another two stars to spend here.
Super Metroid 100% is still one of the most entertaining examples of tool-assistance we have (the gap between it and the best unassisted effort is huge, despite the amazing skills involved), so it's a definite star. MZM 100% is very close to it in terms of pacing and raw entertainment value, but I'm not completely sure it's cool to have two 100% Metroid runs starred (although that might just be me).
Megaman series (2 stars)Mega Man 1
Mega Man 2
Mega Man 5
Mega Man X
Mega Man X2
Megaman Zero 2
Rockman & Forte any%
Rockman & Forte 100CD
A very glitched series.
Arguably MM1 is the most glitched game in the series, which is to say, it's so glitched it's actually incomprehensible. MM2 is also glitched but is noticeably easier on the brain, so I pick it over MM1. No idea which to pick as the second one.
Zelda series (2 stars)LoZ
LoZ 2 glitched
A Link to the Past full any%
Link's Awakening DX full any%
OoT all quests
Majora's Mask any%
I'd leave this one for Zelda experts to decide, but I believe NES LoZ, GBC LADX, and Majora's are the best picks so far?
Castlevania series (2 stars)Castlevania
Castlevania 3 Grant path
Castlevania: Bloodlines whip guy version
Castlevania: Bloodlines spear dude version
Super Castlevania IV
Castlevania: HoD any%
Castlevania: HoD Maxim glitched
Castlevania: HoD Maxim all bosses
Castlevania: CotM any%
Castlevania: AoS glitched
A popular series which lends itself to TASing reasonably well, especially the later installments.
My picks are NES Castlevania and CotM any%. Both are very well-optimized, show excellent luck manipulation, are short, make reasonable use of glitches, and all that. Glitched versions of GBA games' TASes just skip too much, beside being totally incomprehensible. Maxim all bosses is cool, but somewhat repetitive. Castlevania 3 and SCIV are just too long and slow-paced.
NES games (2 stars)Darkwing Duck
Excitebike
Gimmick! best ending
Journey to Silius
Little Samson
Ninja Gaiden 2
Rygar warpless
Super C
Many nice picks here! Excitebike and NG2 are probably the best ones, though, the first being a notable example of pushing the game's entertainment boundaries, and the second being very artistically performed. Though I guess it could as well be substituted by Silius or Super C. Dunno.
SNES games (1 star)Biker Mice from Mars
DKC1 any%
DKC2 any%
The Mask
Super Turrican
Sparkster
Probably needs some more picks as well.
Genesis (1 star)Comix Zone
Contra: Hard Corps secret ending
Golden Axe
Kid Chameleon
Lost Vikings
Rocket Knight Adventures
Rocket Knight Adventures is a no-brainer, IMO, though all games are reasonably good (yet, unfortunately, not anything stellar). I showed Golden Axe (an earlier version, though, not the current by Trazz) to a lot of my friends that aren't the least bit into TASing, and all of them enjoyed it immensely. I know it's not very representative, but still, gives some food for thought.
GBx and N64 don't have enough movies that don't pertain to other categories to warrant a separate category for them at this point.
That's 23 stars in total.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I'll post a tentative list of the groups and how many stars there might be reserved for the groups. Nothing is final or anything. I will be happy to hear suggestions for:
- Adding/removing/changing groups
- Adding/removing TASes to existing groups
- Changing the number of stars reserved for groups
- Anything you feel is important/overlooked
Instant stars (4 Stars)
Big fat "no". Anything "instant", which basically means exemption from other categories, or logical reasoning at all, is very much against the idea of making star selection reasonable in the first place. It makes the whole process very controversial (despite striving to be otherwise), and serves no good reason on its own. The stars assigned here may as well be scattered among other categories as well.
Baxter wrote:
Super Mario World (1 Star)
Devoting a separate star to a series might be slightly biased, but acceptable, considering the collective experience at this point. But making a single game (ok, 1.5 games if we count SDW) of the series a separate category is no better than tossing it among the "instant" stars or some other stuff like that.
Baxter wrote:
Special concept (2 Stars)
Kings Bounty (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Monopoly (skipped game by luck manipulation)
River City Ransom (playaround)
Both skipping games and playing around are no special concepts whatsoever. They are old, popular and well-known, and can be applied to a whole lot of games. This category, as I see it, should contain something rare and unexpected, and playarounds with skipped games should instead have categories of their own.
The rest I mainly disagree with on the basis of game choice, so I'll wait for an updated list.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I'll post a tentative list of the groups and how many stars there might be reserved for the groups. Nothing is final or anything. I will be happy to hear suggestions for:
- Adding/removing/changing groups
- Adding/removing TASes to existing groups
- Changing the number of stars reserved for groups
- Anything you feel is important/overlooked
Instant stars (4 Stars)
Big fat "no". Anything "instant", which basically means exemption from other categories, or logical reasoning at all, is very much against the idea of making star selection reasonable in the first place. It makes the whole process very controversial (despite striving to be otherwise), and serves no good reason on its own. The stars assigned here may as well be scattered among other categories as well.
Baxter wrote:
Super Mario World (1 Star)
Devoting a separate star to a series might be slightly biased, but acceptable, considering the collective experience at this point. But making a single game (ok, 1.5 games if we count SDW) of the series a separate category is no better than tossing it among the "instant" stars or some other stuff like that.
My reasoning for the instant stars was the following: Eventually, some TASes will be picked to have stars and others won't. The final goal is to get every TAS that gets a star into the instant star category, and delete the group it leaves behind... so this will in the end produce a group with all the starred TASes.
The more TASes are listed in the instant star group, the closer we are to having the list. About every TAS in this group, there would be some agreement amongst as many people as possible, so these would only have very little debate. So I only put the TASes in this group that everyone already basically agreed on (or at least, that I got the impression that this was agreed on).
There were only very few I was sure enough to do this for, so I had only 4 in here at the initial list. In the end, it showed that these weren't really undebatable as well, and in the updated list (which I will post shortly), I decided to put excitebike and gradius in other groups for this reason (after your post, I might also consider putting SMB3 in another group, although I currently think I might just leave it in the instant star group). I added for instance Gunstar Heroes, as nearly everyone was very clear on this getting a star.
So by this process, of changing the groups, moving some to the instant star section which are decided upon by enough people, I hope to get closer and closer to a final list. I for instance also plan to split the Metroid group into a Super Metroid group, and a Metroid group (which holds the other Metroid runs (NES and GBA)). I did this, since people pretty much agreed that at least some Super Metroid run should have a star. This makes things more specific, and thus closer to the final list. The more instant stars, and the more specific groups, the better. It is the process of getting these that matters.
For instance at SMW, it was already pretty clear that people wanted at least one of these TASes to get a star, so it was ok to start out with a relatively specific group.
moozooh wrote:
Baxter wrote:
Special concept (2 Stars)
Kings Bounty (skipped game by luck manipulation)
Monopoly (skipped game by luck manipulation)
River City Ransom (playaround)
Both skipping games and playing around are no special concepts whatsoever. They are old, popular and well-known, and can be applied to a whole lot of games. This category, as I see it, should contain something rare and unexpected, and playarounds with skipped games should instead have categories of their own.
The rest I mainly disagree with on the basis of game choice, so I'll wait for an updated list.
Well, it depends on how "special concepts" is defined. It is certainly not meant as "a TAS from the concept demo section". It however came to me that there were some suggestions like "these must be a TAS in the star list that shows off this". So not for the general run (maybe also a little), but mainly for showing off something specific. This specific aspect could vary from one input completing multiple games (MMX+MMX2) to a game being completed in a really short time (Kings Bounty). These are hard to compare with other more regular runs. The only thing you can really compare to, and ask people, is which of these concepts are the most suitable for a star... I therefore grouped them together.
The game choices are just whichever suggestions were made. I am planning to remove the suggestions that didn't get much support to narrow it down, and get closer to a final star list. New suggestions are always welcome of course, but at this point, it's more about narrowing down.
So I only put the TASes in this group that everyone already basically agreed on (or at least, that I got the impression that this was agreed on).
Not sure where you got the impression from, because most of those who cared about commenting upon it, said this:
klmz wrote:
Maybe SMB3 is somehow similar to SMW... Wait, am I also biassed against SMB3!?
Comicalflop wrote:
ExciteBike I personally think is overrated.... while it abuses bouncing, it uses the same moves over and over. It abuses the game for sure, but in terms of speed, I still think Biker Mice from Mars beats it by a long shot.
Gradius I kinda like, but I think that a run where you must push it to the limits in order to make art isn't as good as a game that naturally is artistic and varied.
Mukki wrote:
I disagree that exitebike should get an instant star. The movie is funny and novel, but is the glitch really so representative of TASing that it should be in this category? I think it should be in the NES one, where it would probably still do well.
Dragonfangs wrote:
The only thing I kind of disagree with here is Gradius, while the playing around is hilarious, it stops being so long before the run ends. Simply, it's too long.
upthorn wrote:
I disagree with Excitebike being auto-starred. I think that there are much better star candidates available these days. I would suggest Gunstar Heroes, and Super Metroid 100% as possible replacements. Additionally, it seeems perhaps unfair that two games from the same series get autostarred here. I'd remove both mario games from the instant star list, and put them together into a 3-star "mario" category which includes smb1, smb2, smb3, air, mario adventure, smw, sdw, and mario 64.
moozooh wrote:
SMB3 any%, on the other hand, is barely faster under TAS conditions, most of the run is autoscrolling, there are little to no new glitches that are easily noticeable to newcomers. That aside, it has a very high rating, SMB3 is one of the most popular games ever, there's Morimoto's run to bring additional attention to it, et voila: there's not a single rational reason left to have it starred.
"Everyone already basically agreed on"? Come on.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
If I start quoting your post again, it will only get confusing, but here is my response:
I very much considered all the quotes you made, and I am very aware of them. I think I even adressed them here:
Baxter wrote:
There were only very few I was sure enough to do this for, so I had only 4 in here at the initial list. In the end, it showed that these weren't really undebatable as well, and in the updated list (which I will post shortly), I decided to put excitebike and gradius in other groups for this reason (after your post, I might also consider putting SMB3 in another group, although I currently think I might just leave it in the instant star group).
Here I basically say that I agree that excitebike and gradius got enough response to place them in regular groups again. So here we don't disagree.
klmz is the only one, besides you just now who disagreed with SMB3. Only klmz wouldn't have been enough to weigh up against the massive support SMB3 has. With your post now also, I said I reconsidered it again... but I'm still not fully convinced here. If a third would be of this opinion, then I would instantly place it back... but you seem to be so massively outnumbered in this case. But ok, two is more than just a single person having some opinion, and you gave your reasons, so I will also place it back into a regular group. I just know I'm gonna get flamed for this by others (and I think it won't matter in the end, and only slow the process down, but ok).
Here is an updated list, taking some of the recent posts concerning the previous list of groups in consideration. I'll write down comment on changes in each group. The runs in yellow are the currently preferred runs in that group, or currently most popular. It does not mean that these runs will have stars, but just gives a small indication of the current general opinion. Stars that are sure to get a star will be moved to the instant star group. If there are no yellow runs, there is no significant preference yet. There were previously 23 potential stars, and now 24. The combined remains of the SNES+Gens groups deserved an extra star.
Instant stars (2 Stars)Super Mario 64 "0 star"
Gunstar Heroes "2 player"There were some comments about Excitebike and Gradius, which made it seem more fair to put them in other groups. Excitebike is now in the NES group, as a preferred run, and Gradius is now in the special concept group as a preferred run. They added one potential star to those groups.
The recent posts above this post also questioned the validity of the instant SMB3 any% star, so this one has also moved to the NES group as a preferred movie.
Gunstar Heroes "2 player" is the undisputed winner of the Genesis group. Basically everyone only mentioned this run. Since the Genesis group only had one star assigned, so the it was combined with the SNES group, which was also pretty small after some changes.SMW (1 Star)SMW small only
SMW any%96 exit and SDW are removed from this group, due to lack of popularity for them to have this star. The popularity for these two runs having this star is pretty close though, so more opinions needed!Sonic (2 Stars)Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic The Hedgehog
Sonic The Hedgehog 2Sonic 3 is a run of extremes. The amount of positive feedback it got would warrant coloring this TAS yellow... but there were also quite a few people saying especially this TAS should not get the star. It therefore remains green just like the others.Super Metroid (1 Star)Super Metroid any% glitched
Super Metroid any% real time
Super Metroid any% ingame time
Super Metroid 100%I made a Super Metroid group, since nearly everyone at the Metroid group was in favor of giving Super Metroid a star. It was however not totally clear which of the runs should get it. The 100% run is very popular... but some argue that a shorter run should have it, since it's likely a GBA Metroid run will be a 100% run also.Metroid (1 Star)Metroid Zero Mission 100%Metroid any%
Metroid Fusion 100%The new Metroid Fusion 100% run was added here. At this point, Zero Mission is the most popular, so it's yellow. If you disagree with this, speak up! ;)Megaman (1 Star)Mega Man 1
Mega Man 2People are very undecided on this, it's very close. More opinions needed!Rockman and Forte (1 Star)Rockman and Forte any%
Rockman and Forte “100 CDs”This got a lot of votes in the SNES group. People were however undecided on whether the star should go to the any% or the 100CD run; therefore this new group.Zelda (1 Star)The Legend of ZeldaLinks Awakening DXI removed A Link to the Past... the current run has virtually no support at all. When Tompala finishes his run, there will be a debate about this though. The Legend of Zelda is yellow, since currently, most people tended towards this TAS.Castlevania (2 Stars)CastlevaniaCastlevania: Harmony of Dissonance
Castlevania: Circle of the Moon
Castlevania: Aria of SorrowThe NES run is very popular... at this point, the most likely scenario is the NES run, and one of the GBA runs getting stars. Super Castlevania IV was removed.Wire TAS (1 Star)Ninja Five-0
Umihara KawaseSpiderman 3
Bionic CommandoI didn't remove Spiderman 3 and Bionic Commando yet... but it seems to go between Ninja Five-0 and Umihara Kawase at this point.Special concept (3 Stars)MMX+MMX2
GradiusKings Bounty
Monopoly
River City Ransom
Lost VikingsGradius was added as a yellow movie to this group, as there were already quite a few positive comments about it. MMX+MMX2 also provides a concept people generally agree on that should be represented. There is however another star available here, which could be any of the listed ones. The four player movie was removed for lack of support.NES games (5 Stars)Super Mario Bros 3 any%
Excitebike
Battle of OlympusNinja Gaiden 2
Darkwing Duck
Mega Man 5
Gimmick!
Super Mario Bros 2
Journey to Silius
Arkanoid “Warpless”
Legend of Zelda 2
Battletoads “2 player warpless”Excitebike and SMB3 any% were added here as popular TASes. This means they brought their two potential stars from the instant star group to this one. Battle of Olympos the most popular of the previously listed ones. Batman got removed.SNES/Gens games (2 Stars)Biker Mice from MarsSparkster
Donkey Kong Country
Golden Axe
Rocket Knight Adventures
Comix Zone
The MaskThe Genesis group has one potantial star for its group, and Gunstar Heroes was by a GREAT majority selected to get that star. In order to not remove all the runs that were listed there two were combined with the SNES list to form the SNES/Gens group. Rockman and Forte was popular enough to get its own group, so it was removed from the SNES group. BMFM was also very popular in the SNES list, so it's yellow. Yoshi's Island wasn't popular at all it seemed, as was Bomberman 2, so they were removed from the SNES list. Ecco and Dynamite Headdy were removed from the Genesis section due to lack of support. The SNES/Gens list however would have had only the one remaining star from the SNES list, and with these great runs, I decided to give this category an extra star. So there are two stars now for these runs.N64 (1 Star)Majora’s MaskGoldeneyeMischief Makers was removed from the group due to lack of positive feedback, and Super Mario 120 stars wasn't considered needed by most, since the 0 star run was already there, so these two were removed. Out of the two remaining runs, Majora's Mask is the most popular at this point.
I still haven't watched every single run listed, but I'd like to agree with those who suggested a 'puzzle game' category.
Tetris Attack, Kirby's Avalanche, Wetrix or Tetrisphere would be great at showing how ridiculous these games get when being TAS'd. Maybe the first two are better, since they're the more familiar 'delete a bunch of stuff in a well-style'. Currently, there's nothing showing any puzzle games and that seems horrible when there's multiple games from the same series.
Soon after my uni deadlines pass next Friday, I'll be able to properly join in the discussion.
I'm just some random guy. Don't let my words get you riled - I have my opinions but they're only mine.
I'd like to agree with those who suggested a 'puzzle game' category
The real question is, which of the currently assigned 24 stars should it get? We mustn't give away stars to categories too quickly, the total number of stars is somewhat limited.
I'd take it away from either special concepts or N64 personally. There is still a good chance that either Tetrisphere or Wetrix will get the star.
Also I think the reason that certain Genesis runs didn't get support was because of overwhelming support for Gunstar Heroes. Maybe they deserve a second chance. I'd put Comix Zone back up to see how it does. That makes my vote in the combined SNES Genesis group Biker Mice and Comix Zone.
Also, I think it might help to get information on the runs that people have seen. There are some runs that have less of a chance of being watched because they are of lesser known games or aren't on the popular systems.
I'd take it away from either special concepts or N64 personally. There is still a good chance that either Tetrisphere or Wetrix will get the star.
I'll keep this idea in mind, but won't do anything concrete right now.
arkiandruski wrote:
Also I think the reason that certain Genesis runs didn't get support was because of overwhelming support for Gunstar Heroes. Maybe they deserve a second chance. I'd put Comix Zone back up to see how it does. That makes my vote in the combined SNES Genesis group Biker Mice and Comix Zone.
Ok, fair enough... Comix zone was suggested by someone else, so with you, that makes two, which is probably enough to at least list it at this point. I do wonder where to draw the line though (or shouldn't there be a line?):
Comix Zone
The Mask
Ecco
Dynamite headdy
Bomberman 2
Should these all be added to that list? Do they seriously all stand a chance against the currently listed runs in that group? Bomberman 2 was for instance your suggestion once... but you don't seem to list it currently. I could of course just list them all, but I was aiming to make the lists a bit smaller, removing the entries that had little response. I'll add Comix Zone and The Mask for now. If someone feels strongly about any of those other runs (or any other run in general), feel free to let me know.
I still support Bomberman 2, and would love to see it have a star. If you think it still might have a chance, put it on. I just decided to choose my battles and thought Comix Zone had a better chance.
I still support Arkanoid for NES and Sparkster for SNES, while I think The Lost Vikings for Genesis should be put in the SNES/Genesis category as it isn't very conceptional and you can give one more star to the SNES/Genesis category.
Baxter wrote:
Bezman wrote:
I'd like to agree with those who suggested a 'puzzle game' category
The real question is, which of the currently assigned 24 stars should it get? We mustn't give away stars to categories too quickly, the total number of stars is somewhat limited.
Currently we have already 547 published movies, whose 5% is around 27. Therefore, we can afford 1 or 2 more stars for now, and reserve 3 or 2 stars for future additions (and I guess we may have 600+ published movies then, which may enable 3 more stars).
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Joined: 8/26/2006
Posts: 1139
Location: United Kingdom
Instant stars (2 Stars)Super Mario 64 "0 star"
Gunstar Heroes "2 player"
I'm not sure if I agree with this category at all now. Is its purpose to reward runs that are so undeniably representative of TASing that they must be starred? Or is it just a pedestal upon which to put runs that have completely trancended their own categories? Originally, with movies like Gradius in here it was the former, now I believe it to be the latter. I think Gunstar Heroes can take its star back to the Gens/Snes section since it will win it anyway (I think 3 stars between two well contested consoles is reasonable), and since there seems to be some support for removing the N64 category then SM64 may as well just have that star.
SMW (1 Star)SMW small only
SMW any%
SMW any% without a shadow of a doubt. In any case I think small-only would lose most of the support it has if their was a more modern 96-exit run.
Sonic (2 Stars)Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic The Hedgehog
Sonic The Hedgehog 2
I still think S3&K is awesome, but I've read some very convincing arguments about why Sonic 2 should get it instead. Any combination of S3&K, Sonic 2 and SA2 is more than deserving in my opinion.
Super Metroid (1 Star)Super Metroid any% glitched
Super Metroid any% real time
Super Metroid any% ingame time
Super Metroid 100%
The 100% is my favourite of these, but I argree entirely that it shouldn't get the star if one of the GBA 100% runs gets it. As a casual SM fan I don't think that either the real time or the in game stands out to any great length over the other entertainment wise so I'd be much more interested in the opinions of the SM thread regulars on this matter.
Metroid (1 Star)Metroid Zero Mission 100%Metroid any%
Metroid Fusion 100%
I've not seen the new MF run yet, and I haven't seen MZM in a few months so I need to watch it again. I'll watch these runs again over the next few days and try and give a more useful opinion.
Megaman (1 Star)Mega Man 1
Mega Man 2
MM1 has been an important run on this site for so long and is a favourite run of mine...but I'd prefer the star to go to MM2. It's nicely gliched, but not too glitched, also I think the music in this game is ever so slightly better... ;-) I think it best represents Mega Man TASing on this site.
Rockman and Forte (1 Star)Rockman and Forte any%
Rockman and Forte “100 CDs”
Any% for me. I really enjoyed it. The amount of glitchiness in this run flirts with the phrase "too glitchy", but it is just intact enough to be completely awesome. I'm not an expert on the matter, but I think most of the new glitches were discovered after the 100 CDs was made, but I don't know how applicable they are on the tech side.
Zelda (1 Star)The Legend of ZeldaLinks Awakening DX
Legend of Zelda is so satisfying to watch. Especially beating manhandla with one bomb, always my favourite part. Definite category winner here.
Castlevania (2 Stars)CastlevaniaCastlevania: HoD
Castlevania: CotM
NES and CotM for the same reasons I stated previously.
Wire TAS (1 Star)Ninja Five-0
Umihara KawaseSpiderman 3
Bionic Commando
I still doubt the necessity of this category. I'm still with BC, but barely. I'd love to see an Umihara Kawase run that takes a really long route through the game (longer than the sightseeing) with the level of optimisation seen in the current TAS. That run it have my star vote so fast.
Special concept (3 Stars)MMX+MMX2
GradiusKings Bounty
Monopoly
River City Ransom
Lost Vikings
Despite losing out in the instant star category Gradius still rules so that's one star. MMX + MMX2 and King's Bounty for the other two.
NES games (5 Stars)Super Mario Bros 3 any%
Excitebike
Battle of OlympusNinja Gaiden 2
Darkwing Duck
Mega Man 5
Gimmick!
Super Mario Bros 2
Journey to Silius
Arkanoid “Warpless”
Legend of Zelda 2
Battletoads “2 player warpless”
A very strong top three from me is SMB3, Darkwing Duck and Ninja Gaiden 2. The other two would be Mega Man 5 and a toss between Exitebike/Gimmick!. I prefer the latter, but Exitebike has more star quality.
SNES/Gens games (2 Stars)Biker Mice from MarsSparkster
Donkey Kong Country
Golden Axe
Rocket Knight Adventures
Comix Zone
The Mask
If Exitebike is starred I don't think Biker Mice should be. Both those runs are special for similar reasons and because stars are so limited across Genesis and SNES I think the star can be better spent. Similarly, Sparkster and RKA shouldn't both be starred. My two here would be Sparkster and Golden Axe, but The Mask and DKC are close. In fact, I think starring a run in the DKC series would be a good idea, but I don't know the series well enough to make a proper judgement.
N64 (1 Star)Majora’s MaskGoldeneye
I'm still with Goldeneye here for the same reasons as before. On removing this category I'm still undecided. I think that GE is more than deserving of a star, on that alone I believe the category should remain. I don't think that giving the GBA a category would be the best move as the best movies in the GBA section are already represented in the franchise-specific categories. I think that if it was then the runs that have been dropped out of the game categories would just end up renominated in the GBA category. Considering that the object of a GBA category would be to encourage diversity in what games stars have been given to, I think that this would be counter-intuitive. However, if the instant stars are removed then SM64 could keep its star, have that be the N64 star, and have the N64 star go to the GBA.
I'm not sure if I agree with this category at all now. Is its purpose to reward runs that are so undeniably representative of TASing that they must be starred? Or is it just a pedestal upon which to put runs that have completely trancended their own categories? Originally, with movies like Gradius in here it was the former, now I believe it to be the latter. I think Gunstar Heroes can take its star back to the Gens/Snes section since it will win it anyway (I think 3 stars between two well contested consoles is reasonable), and since there seems to be some support for removing the N64 category then SM64 may as well just have that star.
Baxter wrote:
My reasoning for the instant stars was the following: Eventually, some TASes will be picked to have stars and others won't. The final goal is to get every TAS that gets a star into the instant star category, and delete the group it leaves behind... so this will in the end produce a group with all the starred TASes.
The more TASes are listed in the instant star group, the closer we are to having the list. About every TAS in this group, there would be some agreement amongst as many people as possible, so these would only have very little debate. So I only put the TASes in this group that everyone already basically agreed on (or at least, that I got the impression that this was agreed on).
There were only very few I was sure enough to do this for, so I had only 4 in here at the initial list. In the end, it showed that these weren't really undebatable as well, and in the updated list (which I will post shortly), I decided to put excitebike and gradius in other groups for this reason (after your post, I might also consider putting SMB3 in another group, although I currently think I might just leave it in the instant star group). I added for instance Gunstar Heroes, as nearly everyone was very clear on this getting a star.
So by this process, of changing the groups, moving some to the instant star section which are decided upon by enough people, I hope to get closer and closer to a final list. I for instance also plan to split the Metroid group into a Super Metroid group, and a Metroid group (which holds the other Metroid runs (NES and GBA)). I did this, since people pretty much agreed that at least some Super Metroid run should have a star. This makes things more specific, and thus closer to the final list. The more instant stars, and the more specific groups, the better. It is the process of getting these that matters.
For instance at SMW, it was already pretty clear that people wanted at least one of these TASes to get a star, so it was ok to start out with a relatively specific group.
Maybe it should have a different name than "instant stars" though... since they aren't that instant in this case.
