Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
BrianRuleZ wrote:
How about getting one egg, and trying to "clone" it by doing different stuff with the bottles
I may be wrong since I only played MM through once, but I don't think eggs are clones. I think each egg is distinct since the same egg will always drop to the same area in the tank. I could be wrong too and I don't mean to discourage any effort to break that part of the game. Edit: Flip explains what I was thinking much better.
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I'd presume each egg has it's own unique identity though, unlike useless stuff like bugs or fairies. Once you collect an egg, you can no longer collect another egg in that exact same spot, so clearly the game knows which eggs you have collected. If it does have some sort of labelling system on the eggs, it might prevent NWBN being learned by collecting 7 clones. EG in the tank you'll have eggs: 2222222 instead of : 1234567, so the game might not recognise it fully and so not teach you the song.
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Flip wrote:
I'd presume each egg has it's own unique identity though, unlike useless stuff like bugs or fairies. Once you collect an egg, you can no longer collect another egg in that exact same spot, so clearly the game knows which eggs you have collected. If it does have some sort of labelling system on the eggs, it might prevent NWBN being learned by collecting 7 clones. EG in the tank you'll have eggs: 2222222 instead of : 1234567, so the game might not recognise it fully and so not teach you the song.
By using a Gameshark code to have an egg in a bottle, dropping seven of these into the tank (empty the bottle, re-equip the same bottle with the egg inside) will begin the NWBN process, so I don't think it's that...
Joined: 11/11/2006
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It's entirely possible that the eggs aren't unique, but there are flags in the save memory that say what eggs you have collected.
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Joined: 7/16/2006
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BrianRuleZ wrote:
Btw, can't gyorg be damaged with arrows too? Yes, the zora mask is needed, even if he can be damaged with arrows, re-considering, the zora mask saves time for the fight too
Gyorg can be stunned with any type of attack. You can even slash him if you wait for him to jump over the platform. But only Zora and FD can deal damage.
Joined: 11/2/2006
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Going further into this cloning egg trick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9SB6acPMgM Note how cloning the frogs doth not worketh.
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Items are treated somewhat different to NPCs, and as was previously said you can use gameshark to successfully learn NWBS from 7 clones. But nice glitch, very interesting. So you can use the 'zora mask in shallow water' effect to somewhat freeze the loading points, and enter areas with only half the things in there. It seems to be built on some system like "Destroy objects while exiting area, create them upon entering" but it only recognises the "create them..." part. The hearts get recreated on the same spot, but frogs don't. I guess that's because hearts dont have any collision hit box (or whatever). All characters can just run straight through them, so when two are on the same spot nothing needs to happen. It's impossible for link or an NPC to run through another NPC on the other hand, so when one gets created on top of the other it gets pushed out to the side, hence the frogs being created on different places. But what hope do we have of using this to clone zora eggs? We'd need shallow water, and a large room for loading point bypass; but we dont have any of those two things for any of the 7 eggs.
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This was at the end of that video description. "This glitch does not work on the N64 because the N64 can't handle everything being loaded. Do not ask if this is possible on the Wii should it be released, because you can try yourself." (He did it on one of the gamecube versions.)
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Kirkq wrote:
This was at the end of that video description. "This glitch does not work on the N64 because the N64 can't handle everything being loaded. Do not ask if this is possible on the Wii should it be released, because you can try yourself." (He did it on one of the gamecube versions.)
It might work on an emulator.
Joined: 1/3/2006
Posts: 334
i just tried project 64, and well i levitated over the spot where the octoroc used to be (seems to work as well; maybe this leads to new places where this can be performed) and just as I entered the black thing project 64 crashed. Didnt try mupen though. And well maybe its a thing that can be fixed
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I wonder if this could be useful anywhere: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x7uV-P34_yc
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If you can use other "jump" styles, like the sideways flip that gives incredible distance, then maybe yeah. Also, this vid tells me that normal megaflipping should be possible; is it?
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No, normal superflipping isn't possible. I'm gonna post a WIP in a few hours, once I reach Woodfall Temple. I've found an awesome glitch along the way, while supersliding. I'm not sure how it happened, but I basically got to slide forever, after canceling the initial slide.
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I've now played until getting the Hero's Bow in Woodfall Temple. Here's the WIP: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GaYaZNwVCr0 My notes on the third cycle so far * In East Clock Town, I used a slightly different strat, which involves boosting while jumping over the gaps. I was aware of this strat while I was working on the second cycle, but foolishly didn't test it, because I assumed it would definitely be slower, since it requires you to angle Link more towards the wall. It saved 12 frames over the strat used in the second cycle. * In West Clock Town, while learning the Scarecrow's Song, I was able to put in the notes faster than when playing the ocarina normally. This is the only time in the game (that I'm aware of) in which this is possible. After learning the Scarecrow's Song, I talked to the banker from a distance. This was possible in the second cycle, but slower, due to Link's positioning when entering the area before talking to the banker. In the bomb shop, I bought one set of bombchus first, before buying two sets of bombs and the second set of bombchus. This was faster, as it meant I had to move the cursor one less time overall. * In Termina Field, I tried for days to bombchu hover across the cutscene area in a straight line, and after many failed attempts, deemed it impossible. I did, however, go as close to the area as possible, while still being able to hover over it. This section was very tedious, and it desynched on me about 6 times. I also found that you can get slightly further by not pressing the button for the bombchu and the button for the shield at the same time. Pressing the button for the bombchu first, then the shield can make him go a little further, and was necessary to clear the cutscene area, despite it causing a bit more lag than just pressing both buttons at once. * In the Southern Swamp, I took a different rolling route, which involved bouncing off some of the surroundings. This was faster than just going around the obstacles, like Mukki did. After getting the potion, I discovered a neat timesaver, where I roll onto the boat and land on the boardwalk, right next to the ladder. This meant I avoided having to take off the Goron Mask and climb onto the boardwalk as Link. * In the Deku Palace, I did a superslide past the guards, instead of a small recoil flip like Mukki did. I also discovered an awesome glitch at this part, where I was able to retain near-superslide speeds after ending the initial superslide. I'm not sure how this happened, but all I did was guide him into the tunnel, boost off the corner, and press and hold Z. Had I not let go of Z, he would've continued sliding against the corner in the next area. Since I moved through this section so quickly, the platforms with the deku flowers on them were in much betterp positions, so I saved even more time there. * In Woodfall, I managed to just sidehop past the second bug. This was not possible with the first bug, because he was too close to the edge of the board, so I still stunned him to get past him. I got the Deku Stick at the first deku flower, not that that makes any difference, but I done it because I had planned to manipulate a Deku Nut at the second one, and I was able to, but for some ungodly reason, picking up a Deku Nut at either of the deku flowers means that you're unable to quickly cycle through the text, so it was still faster to get one from the pot next to the owl statue. (The nuts won't actually be used until Stone Tower Temple) * In Woodfall Temple, I took a different route in the first room. This wasn't any faster or slower than the route Mukki took, but I felt that it "looked" faster. I was able to kill the Dinoflos without using a Deku Nut, so I didn't bother equipping it. Also, I screwed up at the end. I thought I had less health than I actually had, so I had to use another bombchu in the chest room so that I could still kill myself optimally. This might mean that later on, I will have to use a bomb instead of a bombchu during a hover, but not necessarily, as I have some ideas for that section anyway... On getting the Hero's Bow, I'm 6387 frames (1 minute and 46.45 seconds) ahead of Mukki. petrie: is there any way I can contact you more directly, like through AIM or something?
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That infinite superslide trick looks interesting...
Joined: 7/16/2006
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That superflip thing looks like it might clear the gap in Woodfall that you hovered over, as it appears to get slightly more distance than a recoil flip. There's also the possibility that it is simply an extremely optimized recoil flip, but in either case, the ability to clear said gap should be examined. That superslide thing is weird, though. If it can be done in more general circumstances (ie, not just in the Deku Palace), this should speed things up considerably. Still, saved a large amount of time already by getting better platform positioning. Anyways, the optimization looks very good. If you want to contact me, my AIM is petrie1729. I'll try to be on fairly often.
Experienced player (504)
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Okay, petrie, I've added you to my AIM list. (I'm Shieldless Link on AIM) That superflip thing looks like it might clear the gap in Woodfall that you hovered over, as it appears to get slightly more distance than a recoil flip. There's also the possibility that it is simply an extremely optimized recoil flip, but in either case, the ability to clear said gap should be examined. I don't think it's possible unless you're going away from a ledge (i.e. it could only work if I wanted to go back to the door I came through in that room). Also, I got this PM on YouTube: Majora's Mask TAS Hey, instead of commenting I'll just send u a private message. I'm sure you have planned out this TAS to the most minuscule detail, but we can all forget some things sometimes. I just want to make sure you have thought of everything as a possibility. I am just giving suggestions. Anyways, I assume since you said you need the bow for Goht that you are going to use the fire arrows for the Woodfall Temple correct? If that is the case, I do not think it is faster to come back later on and split up the Temple in 2 parts considering you have to fly as a Deku into the Temple twice, and well as redo that first room. This is the route I am thinking of: 1. Open up Woodfall. 2. Warp to Clocktown. Get the hookshot. 3. Warp to Woodfall, complete entire dungeon with hookshot. 4. Warp to Mountain Village/Snowhead. Complete Snowhead Temple. I'm thinking this is faster than your route because you will need to obtain the hookshot for Snowhead and to finish Woodfall anyway, so I am basically just switching the order which you will obtain the hookshot to be first. I have thought all this out; my idea uses the Song of Soaring the same number of times as you will, and you will be able to beat Woodfall Temple in one part instead of two, even if you don't have the fire arrows. The only 2 things I view as a problem with my route is that you do not have the bow to stun the pirates, and by beating the Woodfall Temple first enables a cutscene which shows the deku princess. I am not trying to be rude or anything, I just want to be sure that you are creating the most optimized TAS speedrun possible. I also speedran MM so I know the game inside and out. lol. I would like to hear back from you and what you think about my route, because it is quite possible I left out a small detail that would make all the difference between our two ideas. Thank you for your time: Dan aka SoulCalibrII Not sure what to think. The stuff he mentioned makes me think that it might still be slower than just going with the route Mukki used. What do you guys think?
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Swordless Link wrote:
Not sure what to think. The stuff he mentioned makes me think that it might still be slower than just going with the route Mukki used. What do you guys think?
Test.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
Cardboard wrote:
Swordless Link wrote:
Not sure what to think. The stuff he mentioned makes me think that it might still be slower than just going with the route Mukki used. What do you guys think?
Test.
Test.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Experienced player (504)
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Posts: 682
Um...no? Do you realise how long it would take to test both of those, and how difficult it would be given the desynching nature of this game? And even if I did end up testing the slower one, I wouldn't be able to even hex my inputs in later, because hex NEVER works with this game.
Joined: 7/16/2006
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new route gains --doesn't require returning to Woodfall --faster first room --hookshot instead of hovering new route losses --no fire arrows for Gekko --flower platform room must be done without Fire Arrows --Odolwa must be defeated with Kokiri Sword --longer Woodfall after-cutscene --Hookshot w/o bow makes the Pirate scene unskippable I'll have to test that last one, as in TAS conditions, it may be possible to hit the hive with a bubble from beyond the cutscene trigger. If not, though, this really has no chance of being faster, and is the main reason why Hookshot->Bow doesn't work out. If it does work, though, Open Woodfall->Get hookshot->Bow->Warp out may be a viable option. EDIT: After a number of tries, I was unable to get the bubble to hit the hive from beyond the cutscene trigger. I'm not sure if the bubbles just kept going off track as they got near the hive or if the bubbles' hitboxes actually go away before reaching the hive, but either way this looks like a no-go. If anyone knows of a way to distinguish the two, I'm all ears.
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I've now played until getting the Hookshot. My notes on this part of the third cycle * I discussed the alternate route (see one of my earlier posts) with petrie over AIM. We came to the conclusion that following the old route was still for the best, because the cutscene before hitting the bee hive isn't skippable if you break it with a deku bubble, even with tool-assistance. * On the way to Great Bay, I cancel the damage boost animation by landing on the fence for a frame. This saves a lot of time. * When pushing Mikau to land, you'll notice that I don't activate the cutscene immediately. This doesn't actually matter. The only way to start the scene immediately is to take longer when pushing him onto land. Besides, doing it this way meant that I could do some entertaining stuff while waiting for him. It also meant that I was already in the correct position for the Song of Healing. * While swimming as Zora Link, doing constant swan dives is fastest by a long shot. I also landed in such a position that hitting the Owl Statue caused Link to be shot into the water, which saved even more time. * In the Pirate's Fortress, I found a neat timesaver at the start which eliminated the need for that massive dive that Mukki did. The timesaver was swimming a bit to the left, and it allowed me to "swim" on land for a little bit, and gain control of him immediately after he was done "swimming." I go intentionally slowly (i.e. no swan dives) in the water, because I had to wait for the guard's boat to be past a certain point to avoid getting caught. This is also why I do a slower-than-normal backwalk when getting on land (had I held the analogue down by a further 1 degree, I would've been caught). At the end of the bomb hover, I do what I did on the way to Great Bay as Goron Link, and cancel the damage boost on the fence. This was faster than just backflipping over it. Backwalking up the slope here was faster than sidehopping. This is because of Link's positioning at the end of the chain of sidehops after the bomb hover. It took too long to get into the correct position for sidehopping for it to actually be faster than just backwalking. * I did test the Goron Link barrel trick (see a post by MrSparkle a few pages back), and it was slower than just sidehopping around, which is a shame, because it looked much cooler. * After bottling the egg, I press A while against the side of the tank to get him to grab onto the ledge faster. I have actually used this throughout the run so far at various points, but none of them were as noticeable as this. Had I not done it here, he would've taken over a second longer to grab onto the ledge. This trick was brought to my attention a few months ago by Bloobiebla. m64: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/348737781/SL%20MM%20Great%20Bay.m64 YouTube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NO8JV6WsUvg EDIT: At the moment, I'm 7767 frames (2 minutes and 9.45 seconds) ahead of Mukki. The next WIP might not be for a while. There is a lot to test and optimally implement in the next section. I'm not going to go into detail just yet, but I will say that the next section will be notably different and notably faster than what Mukki did.
Joined: 8/14/2007
Posts: 21
While this isn't really relevant to the TAS at hand, but is there an easy way to abuse the lotto to generate a ton of money?
Joined: 2/14/2007
Posts: 128
Lottery tickets cost 10 rupees, and you only get 50 rupees with a winning ticket. Not worth it, even when playing the game normally.
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Upon entering Great Bay, you Goron rolled to the water slowly because you were out of magic. Did you consider methods to fix this, or is gathering magic just slower? I may have overlooked some other factor. The run is still looking awesome regardless.