Hello,
this is my first tas i submit to TASvideos.
I love the Zelda games and thought this game needs a TAS after all these new discoveries. My goal was a near perfect run but Oot ruined it. I had over 20desyncs while doing it and it was pain to redo half of the game. It's a known problem of oot and heres my solution: just wait some frames after entering a new area or closing the inventory. If u move to early, it desyncs. I think the movie is ok for my first tas and the whole desync problems with it. The worst part of the game is the forest escape: i know the one nut hover trick and i performed it once (it took ages), then i was shocked that the file descyncs and the jump wasnt saved :(. I wasn't feeling like redoing it so i took the easy way (sry for my lazyness). There is a big problem with all the savewarps in the demonstration run. Mupen cannot softreset so i needed to do it in one file. after i received the master sword i jumped through the hall of time wall so i can save after my death,restart and escape the hall of time room.
I hope it will be accepted but if not its ok, I was just to lazy.
JNX
adelikat: Fixed ROM and Game name (and fixed up the text/formatting a bit).
adelikat: According to the Guidelines: If you are aiming for speed and you fail to beat existing speed records, your movie will be rejected.
It has been established that Groobo's movie does complete the game faster even after factoring timing differences and save warping. Therefore, I am rejecting this submission.
I also feel that if you vote no on this movie, you should vote no on the optimized run if it ever gets released because there will undoubtly be small timer savers here and there discovered later (see super metroid or mario games).
There's a categorical difference.
People should vote "no" on a new Super Metroid movie *if* the author skipped using glitches and other shortcuts knowingly and for no good reason, simply because of laziness. And this is, in fact, the current voting standard, as far as I can tell. (There probably are concrete examples.)
However, you are talking about a case where the author tried is very best, and as far as anyone can tell, his run is as optimal as the author could do. This is a completely different situation, and there's no reason to not to vote "yes" if the run is of sufficient quality. Everybody knows that no run is absolutely perfect, but as long as nobody can say how it's imperfect there's little reason to not to give a yes vote.
(Also, we are not talking about shaving off a few frames here and there. We are talking about skipping entire glitch abuses.)
For what the author wrote, I infer that if this isn't played as good as it could be, it is because the emulator doesn't work too well and he became tired of losing hard work to desynchs.
The fact that the other run is on hold due to bugs on mupen seem to confirm how annoying working on this can be.
I make the crazy suggestion of obsolete the current movie by this one, but keep this one rejected. Another crazy option is to obsolete this run by a yet to be produced TAS.
There's no doubt I enjoyed watching this movie, I'm glad to have all the recently discovered tricks finally unified into a working run; but it's still too inefficient. Improvements are very obvious just to the naked eye, and I don't like the idea of such a run replacing the old one.
The current run's page should be updated, saying it has been obselleted by this current one, but shove this one into gruefood and keep the old run regardless.
For what the author wrote, I infer that if this isn't played as good as it could be, it is because the emulator doesn't work too well and he became tired of losing hard work to desynchs.
The fact that the other run is on hold due to bugs on mupen seem to confirm how annoying working on this can be.
I make the crazy suggestion of obsolete the current movie by this one, but keep this one rejected. Another crazy option is to obsolete this run by a yet to be produced TAS.
Another option is just to publish this but with a note. One of the GBA Metroids had a note like this (excess lag) until a better movie was produced.
I would like to see this here, as well, wiht a note that one of the reasons that the game is played poorly can be attributed to emulation troubles, and that an improved movie will be coming after it those are solved.
Compromise!
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3576)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Xkeeper wrote:
I would like to see this here, as well, wiht a note that one of the reasons that the game is played poorly can be attributed to emulation troubles, and that an improved movie will be coming after it those are solved.
I think this is a good solution. Emulation problems is a very valid reason for the lack of good optimized (and finished) movies.
Pekopon wrote:
I personally like the idea of it being a concept demo.
This is an unacceptable solution and will not happen.
This is a glitched any% run which attempt to obsolete another glitched any% run. In addition, we will at some point have some sort of non-glitched any%/all temples/whatever run published along side.
I hope it will be accepted but if not its ok, I was just to lazy.
I was gonna work on this TAS, but then I got high. I was gonna get an optimal video, but then I got high. My videos gonna get obsoleted, and I know why. (Why man?) Cuz I got high, cuz I got high, cuz I got high.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=305vRNoofr8
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Joined: 6/11/2006
Posts: 818
Location: Arboga, Sweden
[14:55:52] <Cardboard> I wonder what would happen if AKA and SL actually finishes a run of OoT, and then some hardcore OoT-gamer finds something which is unoptimized.
[02:16:40] <Cardboard> My theory is that AKA wants to be the author of the largest improvement in the history
[02:21:04] <jimsfriend> <mmbossman> I agree, screwing chickens is something we should encourage <-- where do i sign up?
Yep.
Warp wrote:
omg lol this is so fake!!!1 the nes cant produce music like this!
You know, there was once a similar argument to this on another forum involving the fansub of the Keroro Movie. Someone subbed the movie, but people thought that it was no good because a certain group didn't sub it yet. There was a huge argument about how it sucked and the other groups' would be way better, thus adding tons of pressure.
This is sort of happening with this TAS and SL and AKA's TAS. (Only in this case we know it can be improved.) My conclusion of the subbed Keroro movie argument sort of applies to this TAS. This run can simply be used to tide people over who are waiting patiently (or impatiently) for the improved run, just like the people who were waiting for the "improved" Keroro sub.
So if you ask me, it should be published as somewhat of a preview for the newer run. For those who don't like it, they/I can just keep the previous run backed up.
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Xkeeper wrote:
I would like to see this here, as well, wiht a note that one of the reasons that the game is played poorly can be attributed to emulation troubles, and that an improved movie will be coming after it those are solved.
The problem with this is: Exactly 5 TASers (myself, GuanoBowl, AKA, SwordlessLink, and Bloobliebla) have made WIPs that are of WAYYYYY higher caliber precision, using the same "crummy" emulator. In the case of desynchs, each of us just redoes the segment keeping the same level of precision, until something synchs. As a TASing emulator, Mupen isn't incredibly different from other emus, you can still do everything; frame advance, slow down, rerecord, make new .m64 file copies, memory watch with MHS, etc. There is absolutely no way you can excuse the inprecision in this movie to the emulator itself; the author did a botch job, and even admitted to doing so.
I support Swordless and AKA to make an optimal run using the old mupen, since mupen64plus is not progressing at a consistent rate (not blaming anyone.) I do not think this run should get recognized in any way, whether demo, added .m64 to an older publication, or what have you. This is in no way possible different from P. Dot's run. It's faster,but massively fails in precision. Swordless and AKA will finish an OoT run that is deserving of publication; everyone just needs to learn to be a little bit patient. Yes, the old movie needs to get obsoleted; but let it be obsoleted by a high precision movie that does it right.
Hmm... I recall that the previous OoT run used the old Jabo Direct3D 6 1.5.2 plugin. Was that video plugin used because Jabo Direct3D 8 1.6 caused OoT to desynch in Mupen? If not, it would be nice to know why that ancient plugin was used...
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Well, we have a similar problem to P.DOT's TAS. However, this TAS more than double's P.DOT's improvement. The TAS on the site is horribly outdated, but this one isn't exactly great. Ugh. Voting meh. Again.
Incidentally, I believe the cucco gathering is still suboptimal, in addition to the other things listed. And I can't believe that all that walking across Hyrule Field is actually the fastest way. Oh, and I think we can find better sources of damage than jumping into the void. Chicken attack, maybe?
At any rate, this is why MM>>>>OoT when it comes to speedrunning. Far less cutscene, and the current run is both up-to-date with major skips and well-optimized. Even the 100% will probably have less cutscene than OoT.
I have to vote no to this. The forest escape was painfully slow. Also, that C^ sound in a TAS is like nails on a chalkboard. I'd rather wait a couple months to get a real run (hopefully sub-one hour) on the site.
Joined: 5/2/2006
Posts: 1020
Location: Boulder, CO
Too good of an improvement to ignore. Would prefer to see a more optimal run, but I have to go with yes.
One thing that should be mandatory is detailed submission text, I think the tricks used should be explained, and more importantly what items/songs were glitched into being when.
I would like to see this here, as well, wiht a note that one of the reasons that the game is played poorly can be attributed to emulation troubles, and that an improved movie will be coming after it those are solved.
The problem with this is: Exactly 5 TASers (myself, GuanoBowl, AKA, SwordlessLink, and Bloobliebla) have made WIPs that are of WAYYYYY higher caliber precision, using the same "crummy" emulator. In the case of desynchs, each of us just redoes the segment keeping the same level of precision, until something synchs. As a TASing emulator, Mupen isn't incredibly different from other emus, you can still do everything; frame advance, slow down, rerecord, make new .m64 file copies, memory watch with MHS, etc. There is absolutely no way you can excuse the inprecision in this movie to the emulator itself; the author did a botch job, and even admitted to doing so.
I support Swordless and AKA to make an optimal run using the old mupen, since mupen64plus is not progressing at a consistent rate (not blaming anyone.) I do not think this run should get recognized in any way, whether demo, added .m64 to an older publication, or what have you. This is in no way possible different from P. Dot's run. It's faster,but massively fails in precision. Swordless and AKA will finish an OoT run that is deserving of publication; everyone just needs to learn to be a little bit patient. Yes, the old movie needs to get obsoleted; but let it be obsoleted by a high precision movie that does it right.
And as soon as it's submitted i'll be singing another song, but until now I'm all for SOMETHING AT ALL TO REPLACE THIS MOVIE THAT IS OLDER THAN DIRT IN TERMS OF NEW DISCOVERIES.
Ahem.
I think we're all forgetting something: the current OoT Movie has something going for it that no replacement could ever hope for, no matter how optimized it gets:
JXQ's commentary.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Despite the lack of modern skips, Guano's movie is still entertaining and precise, whereas this movie is not tightly optimized.
Even though the difference in time is greater, the movie still suffers from the poor optimization that plagued P.DOT's run and should be rejected in the same way.
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 636
Location: Seattle, WA
Is it more important that the most-recently-published movie be a video documentation of up-to-date techniques or that the most-recently-published movie be a video documentation of the deeper concepts of Tool Assisted Movies--optimization of known techniques, pin-point precision in terms of play, etc.? I fail to see how this run deserves to be published simply because of new tricks. I've been against improvements in the past that were drastically inferior in terms of entertainment to the previous run (rarely below the Meh level, though), but optimization level is too important.
I dunno. If I was interested in a movie about new tricks I'd rather watch a couple youtubes--I go here for the real good stuff.
Oh how did I ever forget that. Damnit.
JXQ commentary made that movie.
RIP JXQ's commentary
You shall be missed :(
To alleviate my angst-filled period of watching this run, I demand someone make an equally entertaining commentary of this run in order to appease both crowds >:o
ps: +spelling and correct grammar at midnight -_-
What's the deal at around 33 minutes?
You go fishing, but instead of catching a fish, you go swimming, and then leave with your rod.
What follows after that doesn't make sense at all. You go around in various places releasing the bugs in your bottle, only to catch them again...
What's the deal at 47:05 taking an aim, only to cancel it? Then when you actually do aim the hookshot, it's kinda slow, as if you played it in real time.
(Interestingly, a moment later, Link plays his hookshot as if it were an ocarina.)
This run is polluted with horrible suboptimizations >_>. I am not going to mention all of them, because they are fairly obvious, even to those that aren't knowledgeable of OoT. The constant suboptimizations (bad angling, long delays between angle changes, delays between sidehops, etc.) can be blamed on the fact that .......... *drum roll*....... you didn't use the TAS plugin?!?!? I would actually feel bad for you, assuming you manually found the correct angles without the TAS plugin, but you didn't :(. Here are just a few things that really bugged me:
1) Why didn't you get a bomb drop while you were at the graveyard? That way you could have superslided out of Kakariko, and not have had to of twice backwalked across Hyrule Field (the most obvious).
2)If it weren't for the sub-optimizations, you could have completely eluded that horrible beeping sound. Jumping off the house in Kakariko could have been optimized into a sidehop on the stairs, avoiding taking damage.
3) Mashing A during the texts not only constantly shows the blue arrows (wasting 3-6 frames), but it also occasionsly freezes up text windows (wasting about 2 seconds).
4) The amount of delay before beginning movement after entering an area, and also the horrible angling, leaves me to believe that you could have saved time by just mashing A and rolling everywhere.
All of these unoptimized runs are a disgrace to OoT. This obviously doesn't meet the quality guidelines, or entertainment guidelines of a TAS. I'd much rather wait a few months for an optimized run of this game, than to see this or any other of the attempted OoT runs published on the site >_>. Practice using frame advance, and introduce yourself to the TAS plugin and I guarantee that you can produce higher quality runs. Maybe with the release of the coming upgraded Mupen we can see a newer, more polished run from you.
Voted no
Joined: 12/27/2006
Posts: 532
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Bisqwit wrote:
What's the deal at around 33 minutes?
You go fishing, but instead of catching a fish, you go swimming, and then leave with your rod.
What follows after that doesn't make sense at all. You go around in various places releasing the bugs in your bottle, only to catch them again...
The phenomenon is Bottle Adventure (or in this case, reverse bottle adventure (RBA)). Since it is such a complicated glitch, and I don't even fully understand it myself, I'll just link to someone who does.
http://cosmo.dreamhosters.com/RBA.html
My published movies
[03:45:05] <Naohiro19> Soulrivers: ...
[03:45:19] <Soulrivers> ?
[03:46:35] <Naohiro19> <Soulrivers> No! <Naohiro19> So? <Soulrivers> Yes!
[03:46:48] <Naohiro19> joke
