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reason i was asking is because you might beable to get enough speed to get to the underwater door without the game realising you are underwwater meaning you would open it, and skip first bowser
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Joined: 12/1/2007
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Duksandfish wrote:
reason i was asking is because you might beable to get enough speed to get to the underwater door without the game realising you are underwwater meaning you would open it, and skip first bowser
I doubt that's possible.. but still a cool idea, I'll try it later.
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
Duksandfish wrote:
reason i was asking is because you might beable to get enough speed to get to the underwater door without the game realising you are underwwater meaning you would open it, and skip first bowser
~10-20 pages back in this thread, somebody (was it AKA?) tried that already. They BLJ'd off the top of the castle and headed toward the water. As soon as Mario hit the water plane, Mario's velocity went straight to zero. Since the water in SM64 (as far as we know) is nothing like Super Mario Sunshine's water (where you can walk under water if you enter it at certain locations), so unless something miraculous happens when z0MG tries it probably won't work. Also, the loading point triggered by opening the door will probably not happen since the door is underwater.
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When AKA tried it, did he go fast enough that he would've been above the water in one frame, and fully inside it in the next? If so, did you check whether he got unlucky and - after the last frame fully above the water - would have ended up intersecting the water in the next frame at his current speed? (but the game detected this collision and stopped him instead)
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For some reason I remember hearing that you actually retain speed in water from backwards momentum. Ah yes, that was FODA who told me that. In any case, that won't work, don't waste time testing that.
emu
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If I remember correctly, he even tried it with the metal hat (thus being able to walk on the bottom), yet couldn't open the door. But I'm not 100% sure.
Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
Ver Greeneyes wrote:
When AKA tried it, did he go fast enough that he would've been above the water in one frame, and fully inside it in the next? If so, did you check whether he got unlucky and - after the last frame fully above the water - would have ended up intersecting the water in the next frame at his current speed? (but the game detected this collision and stopped him instead)
fruitless. Someone already gamesharked their way into the room, and couldn't open the door while there was water.
Joined: 4/2/2008
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Location: The Netherlands
bkDJ wrote:
fruitless. Someone already gamesharked their way into the room, and couldn't open the door while there was water.
Aah, heh. I guess I don't know enough about this game to join in the discussion :) As an aside, I was just watching the Monty Python sketch on how to defend yourself against fresh fruit when I read your post :P
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Soulrivers' inside moat door attempt for reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOI4fU8_nmE
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How about trying the same BLJ but on the opposite side of the castle. Drop down through the tower, and you wont fall into a small room but you should just drop into regular water and have the freedom to swim where you want. Assuming that works, you could then swim underneath the castle floor, and then up into the basement door. See if that works.
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Flip wrote:
How about trying the same BLJ but on the opposite side of the castle. Drop down through the tower, and you wont fall into a small room but you should just drop into regular water and have the freedom to swim where you want. Assuming that works, you could then swim underneath the castle floor, and then up into the basement door. See if that works.
Doesn't work.
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I'm sure others know the facts, but I'm guessing that the door-opening-trigger is internally linked to the get-inside-castle trigger.... thus without opening the door it's impossible to truely enter? *if* thats true, then the best chance of opening the door is by reaching the open-door-trigger from a valid state (out of water, standing on ground) within 1 frame.... and hope that the check for triggers is programmed to go ahead of the check that puts mario into a swimming state? e.g. frame x mario is BLJing at high speed on solid ground..... frame x+1 mario is in front of castle door sorry if this turns out to be just an annoying noob's post :D
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Joined: 6/12/2008
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I, unfortuanately, believe that Bowser 1 is unskippable. I got in the moat without water and it's not only blj'able but you can't even exit from a black room. Also with water, as you've seen from soulrivers' video, you can exit a black room but it's towards the outside of the castle and not in the basement. Even so, the door is under water and you can't open it so the basement loads. The only thing we don't know is if we enter the black room from the basement and with water and see if we can pass the wall...which I doubt will be of any use since we'll need the key for the basement door. Nintendo, the programmers of sm64 seem to have covered this well..how surprising :P
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Joined: 2/23/2008
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at the door, while the water is raised, there seems to be a small barrier surrounding the door, so i would doubt bljing to it would be effective since mario would loose speed in the water -- also, at around 1:28 of the this vid, i found this strange way to slide along the waterfall, so could this possibly be a time saver, if fully optimized, for some of ttm's stars? -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz9-Ij2Mxk4
Joined: 2/16/2005
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Does anyone even know if the keys are actually stored in separate memory locations? It seems very possible that getting a key increments a key count and the lobby key door requires having 2 keys rather than having a specific key. This can be tested by hacking into BitFS before BitDW and seeing if you can open the lobby key door. If this is the case that moat door is worthless and the only chance is to magically glitch the lobby key door into opening.
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Mitjitsu
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asteron wrote:
Does anyone even know if the keys are actually stored in separate memory locations? It seems very possible that getting a key increments a key count and the lobby key door requires having 2 keys rather than having a specific key. This can be tested by hacking into BitFS before BitDW and seeing if you can open the lobby key door. If this is the case that moat door is worthless and the only chance is to magically glitch the lobby key door into opening.
Why would the programmers do that? Any decent programmer would assign the two keys with seperate variables.
Joined: 1/23/2006
Posts: 352
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Depends, maybe they just considered that there is no reason to ever get the keys out of order so the state "has second key, needs first" doesn't ever happen. OTOH it's posible that finishing the second bowser stage would allow you to open the basement door if it was a single variable that just gets set instead of incremented. I doubt there's a way to make the game load the wrong level when passing a load point or consider a different level completed when finishing a level? Or maybe invoke an overflow and overwrite the key variables?
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
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AKA wrote:
Why would the programmers do that? Any decent programmer would assign the two keys with seperate variables.
Any decent programmer would write only what needs to be written if there is only one way things should happen. Case: Mario walks into the upstairs key door. Single variable.
switch ( gotKeys ) {

case 0 :
          doorText("You need a key to open this door...");
          break;
case 1 :
          doorText("This key doesn't fit. Perhaps it's for the basement door?");
          break;
case 2 :
          openKeyDoor();
          break;
}
Now with two variables, unless theres something in C I'm unaware of, you would need to check both variables in an assortment of if statements. This seems a bit inefficient considering theres only two keys and only 3 states a single variable would have (along with the fact you can only get the keys in a certain order). That said, it's entirely possible that it is coded with two variables just incase the level designers decided that they wanted a choice in which door you could go through first.
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Raiscan wrote:
Case: Mario walks into the upstairs key door. Single variable.
In your example case, I think I'd be more likely to write like this.
if(!gotKeys) DoorText("You don't have a key!");
elseif(KeyType != DoorType) DoorText("This key is for a different door!");
else DoorText("Yay, entrance!");
Or in today's world:
foreach(Keys as key)
  if(key->Fits(door)) { DoorText("Yay, entrance!"); goto done; }
DoorText("No entrance without a valid key!");
done:;
Disclaimer: I didn't read the rest of the discussion.
Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
Bisqwit wrote:
Or in today's world: [...] goto
Oh god. Anyway all this is speculation until someone does BitFS first, then tries to open the different doors, which I'm surprised no one has done while trying to enter from the moat. But I know that nintendo programmers like to use single variables with cases when they can... For example, we know for a fact that in OoT, the different gauntlets/bracelets are stored in one variable. Getting the second or third will let you do what the first would let you do even if you skipepd it. But while Raiscan is probably right with the 3 cases, maybe beating BitFS sets gotKeys to 2 directly and doesn't just increment it. Meh.
Joined: 4/1/2008
Posts: 149
bkDJ wrote:
But I know that nintendo programmers like to use single varaibles with cases when they can... For example, we know for a fact that in OoT, the different gauntlets/bracelets are stored in one variable. Getting the second or third will let you do what the first would let you do even if you skipepd it. But while Raiscan is probably right with the 3 cases, maybe beating BitFS sets gotKeys to 2 directly and doesn't just increment it. Meh.
I agree, there are many instances when OoT programmers have shown their oversight on certain programming issues, (only need two medallions, silver guantlet subsitutes goron bracelet). What should make Mario 64 which was programed earlier any different? Id be happy to find the address if anyone really wants to know
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Post subject: Re: Mario 64
Joined: 1/25/2006
Posts: 7
They are stored in separate memory locations.
Raiscan wrote:
Now with two variables, unless theres something in C I'm unaware of, you would need to check both variables in an assortment of if statements. This seems a bit inefficient considering theres only two keys and only 3 states a single variable would have (along with the fact you can only get the keys in a certain order).
Not inefficient. Plus, there are several other one-bit pieces of information that the game has to store. I'd suspect something like:
if(gameState&SPECIFIC_DOOR_MASK)
	// Open door
else if(gameState&GENERAL_DOOR_MASK)
	// Key doesn't fit
else
	// You need a key
Hb2
Joined: 2/27/2006
Posts: 19
Location: Santiago, Chile
I just tested this using GameShark. I got into Bowser in the Fire Sea before getting the first key using the Level Select code. Then, I beat Bowser and got the second key and then used the Level Select code to get into the lobby. I was able to open the 2nd floor door using the key I got, but the basement door gave me the same message that appears when you try to open the 2nd floor door with the first key: "This key doesn't fit! Maybe it's for the basement..." I lol'd. >_>
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Interesting stuff. Very nice to know that the concept is there at the very least. Any ideas for the method of execution? :)
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Joined: 7/21/2006
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I know this isn't really that relevant, but if, in theory, there were a way to get into Level Select without altering the ROM in any way (ie, no GameShark or anything like that; maybe just certain button presses or something....in theory), and use it to go directly to BitS, would that count as a valid way of beating the game on this site?