Post subject: In the future...
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I'm sorry if this topic is mostly speculative, but I'm wondering what it might be like to TAS a wii game. I've been thinking about this for a while and this is what I think: -The whole control aspect would be too complicated, so most likely, instead of guiding the curser via a wii remote, you can do so with a co-ordinate system. Basically, each frame, you can move your cursor exactly where you want on the screen. -Another theory is perhaps it takes 1 frame per unit of distance travelled (whatever such a unit will be). -I am just crazy and this is way too hard to even do since we haven't TASed beyond the N64. Anyway, I'm just thinking of the applications of the first idea, in that you can move your cursor anywhere you want in a single frame. In particular, I could only imagine what a TAS run of Trauma Center: Second Opinion would be like. In case you're not familiar with the game, here's a youtube link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIBcmOVhf2M So let's focus on suturing. Normally, suturing takes around a second I'm guessing. However, once you move your cursor from point A to B, you probably only have to hold it there for 5 frames for a line to form. Thus, stitching could be done in as little as 18 frames. At this rate, you could suture about 3 wounds per second, which would just flat out be exhilarating to watch. Then there's something like removing bones. Usually, you have to remove a bone carefully like you're playing operation, but with a TAS, it can be done in a mere 2-3 frames. Just imagine seeing 5 bones lodged in someone's body one second, the next second they're all gone and you see 5 cool messages besides the tray. Last point I'll make is how fun it would be to screw around when the player is forced to wait for something but still has controls. Using the healing touch controls, you can choose to make all sorts of elaborate shapes or just cover the screen in green as fast as you can, or you could do the same with suturing, or even do perfect figure 8s with the cursor. The possibilities are endless. I'm sorry if I focused too much on Trauma Center as my wii example, as it may be hard to grasp what I'm saying without actually playing the game. Nevertheless, my point is really just speculating about how awesome wii TASing would be.
Editor, Expert player (2071)
Joined: 6/15/2005
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Welcome to the forums, Vykan12. This is as non-speculative as it gets (for Wii tool-assisted "playing"): http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5306 However, I don't know much about the Wii remote. It is technically possible for emulated pointing devices to travel arbitrarily fast, but at some point, the action must break down (either the game puts a hard cap on speed, or it glitches, or it does nothing, and so on). We can always dream on.
Dwedit
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Isn't any analog control system or mouse cursor just as complicated as the wii remote?
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I know that some N64 TASers use a controller instead of their keyboard so that they're able to tilt the analog stick without the excess trouble of setting it up directly in the emulator (or maybe they just like a controller better than a keyboard...). For tool-assisted Wii playing, I envision the TASer as having a Wii remote and sensor bar, and being able to change where they're pointing in between frames. It would be incredible to construct an emulator that could be compatible with the Wii remotes, but it would probably be the easiest way to TAS on a Wii emulator.
Joined: 4/30/2006
Posts: 480
Location: the secret cow level
That doesn't address the accelerometers in the wiimote, though... it would be impossible to use motion with frame advance. You'd have to have a series of sliders or something within the emulator to govern each axis of movement and rotation.
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
Titus Kwok wrote:
That doesn't address the accelerometers in the wiimote, though... it would be impossible to use motion with frame advance. You'd have to have a series of sliders or something within the emulator to govern each axis of movement and rotation.
Eew... Figuring out the optimal "flick" to do a task in some games will be interesting... I wonder if the console pays attention to the accelerometers when you move the cursor around though... Meaning if the accelerometer registers zero when you move the pointer from the top of the screen to the bottom (when it should register something since you had to pivot the remote to do that), then will the system become suspicious that you are using non-Nintendo approved controls? If so, the emulator would have to compensate for that by estimating the value of the remote's accelerometers when the cursor is moved.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Welcome to the forums, Vykan12. This is as non-speculative as it gets (for Wii tool-assisted "playing"): http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5306 However, I don't know much about the Wii remote. It is technically possible for emulated pointing devices to travel arbitrarily fast, but at some point, the action must break down (either the game puts a hard cap on speed, or it glitches, or it does nothing, and so on). We can always dream on. Great video, I love the lego robotics being applied to gaming, so much w1n right there XD As for the whole controversy over the pointing device and the accelerometers, I thought the simplest way to do it would be to hack the game into having a cursor that moves anywhere you want each frame, rather than literally having frame advance using the regular controls. I suppose that would be altering the game though, so it wouldn't really count. As a slight change of topic, I'm wondering when post n64 consoles will be TASed. I'm especially dreaming about how great a Metroid Prime TAS would be, the possibilites of ridiculous scan/lock dashes, bizarre platform usage and new glitches involving speed, height attained and more sequence breaking basically open a realm of infinite possibilities. In fact, you could probably make a MP run with almost all the gameplay being out of bounds/secret worlds. Moreover, I'm kind of interested in the progression of speed running, TASing and hacking and their relationship. So far, speed running has carried all the way to this generation of gaming, though still pretty much in its infancy. TASing is about two generations behind, being in its infancy with N64 TASing. Then, hacking is a generation behind that, as there are only a handful of SNES hacks *drools at Super Metroid Redesign*. Do you think this 1-2 generation gap will stay fairly constant throughout the years or will it change with some revolution? My guess is once TASing 3D games has been mastered, next generation console TASing won't be a problem, except for the wii for obvious reasons. I also think hacking might not even make it to 3D anytime soon due to the enormous amount of difficulty required in computer programming and whatnot.
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
IIRC, there have been a few hacks of SM64, but only to make the game look weird (luigi colored clothes, chain chomps in many levels, modified textures, mairo turns into goomba, etc.) instead of changing the level layouts.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
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It's not so much knowing how to master 3D TASing as much as TASing lags behind the emulation community. If there were proper emulators for gamecube, PS2, etc, it wouldn't be long before someone implemented rerecording and playback, making a TAS very possible. Although I should probably also make the point that decent PSX emulation has been around for a while without approved TASing tools, so we may just be stuck with N64 for a while as our highest generation of runs.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 685
blahmoomoo wrote:
Titus Kwok wrote:
I wonder if the console pays attention to the accelerometers when you move the cursor around though... Meaning if the accelerometer registers zero when you move the pointer from the top of the screen to the bottom (when it should register something since you had to pivot the remote to do that), then will the system become suspicious that you are using non-Nintendo approved controls?
No. Try setting a Wiimote down on a table and moving the sensor bar around in front of it. Remote stays still, but the cursor on the screen moves all around with the motion of the sensor bar.
Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>
nesrocks
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As I tested it, at least on the wii menu, if you twist the sensor bar, it'll come to an angle (about 30°) where it stops detecting the position. Actually I think it sees the controller perfectly, but it detected that "something is wrong", since the controller isn't spinning, so it decides to get rid of the cursor.
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
The remote detects the sensor bar, not the other way around. The sensor bar has two infrared LEDs on it and the Wii remote has an infrared camera in the front. These two dots of light allow the Wii to see how far away you are from the TV and how much you are twisting your wrist while you are pointing at the TV.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
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nesrocks
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Location: Rio, Brazil
blahmoomoo wrote:
The remote detects the sensor bar, not the other way around. The sensor bar has two infrared LEDs on it and the Wii remote has an infrared camera in the front. These two dots of light allow the Wii to see how far away you are from the TV and how much you are twisting your wrist while you are pointing at the TV.
when I said "it" I meant the wii. my bad. anyway, what I said still applies, because I tested it. It double checks the position comparing what the controller sees and how the controller is twisted. If it's too different, the cursor disappears.
Joined: 4/26/2008
Posts: 46
Location: Glasgow, Scotland.
Sorry to go slightly off topic, but after watching that video about the wiimote and sensor bar... "A cap and sensor bar looks kinda goofy, i'll wear these massive red glasses with mounted LED's attached." ?
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
Larkin wrote:
Sorry to go slightly off topic, but after watching that video about the wiimote and sensor bar... "A cap and sensor bar looks kinda goofy, i'll wear these massive red glasses with mounted LED's attached." ?
Those LEDs are infrared LEDs. That is all the sensor bar really is: two infrared LEDs spaced a fixed distance from each other. Putting two LEDs on his glasses at a fixed distance makes more sense because it looks more natural and feels more comforable than having a big grey rectangular prism strapped to his head. The wii remote sees both of these LEDs and tracks them. The computer program uses the data from the wiimote to determine how to change your view of the screen.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Joined: 4/26/2008
Posts: 46
Location: Glasgow, Scotland.
Don't get me wrong, I understood how it worked. I just didnt think LED clecks were any less a fashion faux pas than the cap with a bar on it.
Joined: 2/1/2008
Posts: 347
Heh, I got it now... Looks a bit geeky either way...
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Joined: 4/26/2008
Posts: 46
Location: Glasgow, Scotland.
Although thanks for the explanation anyway. I was really surprised to hear the LEDs were in the sensor bar and the receivers in the wiimote. For some reason i'd have expected it to be the opposite.
Joined: 4/30/2006
Posts: 480
Location: the secret cow level
Larkin wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I understood how it worked. I just didnt think LED clecks were any less a fashion faux pas than the cap with a bar on it.
The glasses he used actually came with LED lights on them... they sell them at hardware stores.