Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
I don't think it could have saved 80 frames. The difference between a moozooh style skip and the regular collection of the item was only 58 frames. Either way, great find! I can't wait to see what you guys come up with for the rest of the run.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Experienced player (870)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
hero of the day wrote:
I don't think it could have saved 80 frames. The difference between a moozooh style skip and the regular collection of the item was only 58 frames. Either way, great find! I can't wait to see what you guys come up with for the rest of the run.
Fully optimized it will save way very much more. The only problem is that the value's have to close to perfect, incredibly small margin of error. Several conditions have to be met, making this find 100% luck. I will explain the next time we post a WIP. All the best.
Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 685
Cpadolf wrote:
Also I think it does bring some entertainment from the level of glitching, the breaking in to tourian and skipping motherbrain by abusing a save station practically screams "stop raping me".
Can't argue with that, but not everyone feels the same way. :/
Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>
Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
hero of the day wrote:
Don't take it too personally man.
Cpadolf wrote:
I sure hope you didn't take it that way...
I think JXQ forgot his sarcasm flags, guys.
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
Experienced player (870)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
Since I and Taco just managed to optimize our new Torizo skip (but still 1 potential frame left), we thought it'd be nice to WIP again =). Notes: OMBR - 1 frame saved due to better subpixel positioning. Elevator - Ghostframe saved due to OMBR frame. Morph Ball - 1 frame saved due to better subpixel position, allowing to land 1 frame earlier. Elevator - Ghostframe saved due to Morph Ball frame. Room after OTES - 1 frame saved due to subpixel momentum boost. And then of course, torizo skip itself. Instead of jumping for 9 frames we managed to jump for 4 frames. Now a few notes I took during testing. When jumping speed should be either of these values: 1.12288, 1.16384, 1.20480. Jump for 4 frames, turn around and while picking up bombs Door Timer should read 2 (of course) and MOMENTUM should read either of these values: 1.04096, 1.08192, 1.12288 OR IT WON'T WORK. This is the most trivial part of the improved torizo skip. So, at the door leading to the Torizo Corridor, we are 10 ingame frames faster than Saturn, or 11 Zebes frames. The WIP can be found here EDIT: The improved Torizo skip is approximately 55 frames faster.
Skilled player (1444)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
Kriole wrote:
EDIT: The improved Torizo skip is approximately 55 frames faster.
Actually more like 44, compared to my any% at least. moozooh supposedly had already improved that by 2 frames in the NBMB though so 42 frames. Still an epic improvement. Unless some new trick is discovered after you are done with this I doubt anyone will bother to try and improve it for a long time.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Experienced player (870)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
Cpadolf wrote:
Actually more like 44, compared to my any% at least. moozooh supposedly had already improved that by 2 frames in the NBMB though so 42 frames. Still an epic improvement. Unless some new trick is discovered after you are done with this I doubt anyone will bother to try and improve it for a long time.
Compared to your new run, ours was 46 frames faster. Compared to moozooh's low% we were 55 frames faster. This is probably where we are disagreeing ;]
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
Haha really nice rhytmic sound in OTES with the walljumping. Were those strategies faster before pre-Torizo room? Like staying in ball form and jumping early, I didn't see them in the notes. Thanks to you guys I can now copy your strategies and have the perfect start for my run.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Experienced player (870)
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 400
Location: Sueeden
Tonski wrote:
Haha really nice rhytmic sound in OTES with the walljumping. Were those strategies faster before pre-Torizo room? Like staying in ball form and jumping early, I didn't see them in the notes.
That jump through the door was faster. We didn't put it on the list since that's where Saturn's run stops and it is unjust to compare further. Taken that the list were only places where we gained frames on Saturn.
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Damn, this is incredible. I never thought the momentum boosts and the Taco-subpixel optimizations allow for even more improvements. And the Torizo skip, just WOW! Moozooh and I knew that you can save many wasted frames during the high jump before picking the bombs, by unspinning right before them to land on the ground immediately even with a much lower jump, but neither of us managed to have the needed subpixel position to exit the room after that. I thought it's only possible if not using the unspin method, to gain the needed subpixel when landing due to the faster horizontal movement of the spinjump. Seeing you found a way to circumvent that, is just fantastic. Hats off to whoever of you found that at first. Also, did you test if abusing the subpixel momentum boost can get you to land more inside this platform and eventually allow to jump onto the next one a frame earlier there? It probably won't be enough anyway, but I just want to make sure, as it's the only theoretical improvement left to consider in the escape. Other than that, good luck in the further progress. It will be interesting to see whether you can keep the speed-level of my any% from 2006 in the past Torizo parts of the run. Tonski: Morphball falling is only faster if you jump into the door leading to pre-Torizo room like they did. I intentionally didn't do that though, because this strategy makes the door transition a bit longer and in the end is ~10 frames slower in realtime while only gaining 2 ingame frames. If you don't jump into the pre-Torizo door, then the morph fall and the early unmorph fall strategies are exactly same fast in the end, so it doesn't matter which one you use.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Former player
Joined: 6/28/2007
Posts: 67
Saturn wrote:
Also, did you test if abusing the subpixel momentum boost can get you to land more inside this platform and eventually allow to jump onto the next one a frame earlier there? It probably won't be enough anyway, but I just want to make sure, as it's the only theoretical improvement left to consider in the escape.
Yes. It isn't possible to jump to the platform or reach the door earlier. Nothing would happen anyways unless I got to it two frames earlier.
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Thank you for clearing that up, Taco. It's always good to know for sure. :-)
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Joined: 11/21/2007
Posts: 94
Location: United States
ZOMG, the new Torizo skip is awsome. just like the run, which I can't wait for it to be done. and Tonski, you don't for sure that their run is perfect.
Current TAS Project: SMR 100% TAS - 12.5% of the way done with the initial route (I'm going to then release it for further improvments)
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
there is nothing really "new" for your eyes expect the new skip variant :/ hope you find more new eye candys :D
Joined: 1/11/2007
Posts: 279
Location: Finland, Lieksa
Fano wrote:
and Tonski, you don't for sure that their run is perfect.
That's the worst interpretation of a sarcastic post ever.
<Deign> .dice 1d1999191023443691 <BisqBot> Deign rolls a blackhole and destroys the planet.
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Seems like lots of people are working on this game, why isn't anyone finding go through walls shortcuts?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
Seems like lots of people are working on this game, why isn't anyone finding go through walls shortcuts?
To reiterate what has been said earlier: there is no megaman zipping in this game. The only moderately reliable way to get through walls is getting X-ray and do the X-ray climbing. The problem with this method is that no boss fight is required, and all of them can be skipped whatsoever. Which is what NBMB is for. Which is why it's being produced.
Tonski wrote:
Were those strategies faster before pre-Torizo room? Like staying in ball form and jumping early, I didn't see them in the notes.
I used the exact same strategies in the NBMB, they indeed were faster ingame-wise. Shooting the Torizo door is pretty much identical to my version as well, demo is coming soon.
Kriole wrote:
[new skip stuff and WIP]
This is good stuff, and thanks for introducing a great timesaver. What makes me feel bad is that I anticipated a lot of these savings, yet was too lazy to test everything thoroughly enough myself, thinking it won't be possible or worth trying, anyway. What you guys have definitely taught me is that I should never ever succumb to such thoughts again. You are awesome. I will improve even this WIP further, I promise. :)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Experienced player (870)
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
Seems like lots of people are working on this game, why isn't anyone finding go through walls shortcuts?
Because climbing 1 tile takes like 60 frames, and is in no way worth it anywhere, anytime.
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Oh, and another thing: I've received your PM. One more thing to ask would be: are your speed/momentum values for the new skip method final? I.e. you have tested all other values and they are in no way applicable? I'll need this info to finally update the trick page and add a chapter I've been meaning to add for almost a year: momentum manipulation strategies.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Experienced player (870)
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moozooh wrote:
Oh, and another thing: I've received your PM. One more thing to ask would be: are your speed/momentum values for the new skip method final? I.e. you have tested all other values and they are in no way applicable? I'll need this info to finally update the trick page and add a chapter I've been meaning to add for almost a year: momentum manipulation strategies.
I'm glad you recieved my PM ;]. Speed adds to momentum, and the skip allows only those 3 different momentums to work, so yes, no other speeds will work. Feel free to prove me wrong, but I tested incredibly much on this. All other values had me end up at 49151, which makes you end up at in the door at 29,04095. And we wouldn't want that.
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
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What is NBMB? No Bosses or Mother Brain? If you can beat the game by glitching into tourian and glitching past the mother brain I'd really like to see it, I'm sure others would too. There's speedruns for Zelda 2 and link to the past where they use 2-directions at once to go almost straight to the end. This sounds at least as good as that, The going through walls glitch seems to have a lot more merit and thoughtfulness than pressing 2-directions at the same time that you can't do with a normal controller.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Skilled player (1444)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
NBMB means "no boss/mini boss" and indeed there has been a way found by Kejardon to skip even motherbrain. Also this brings the lowest possible item% down to 7, though it requires another very boring glitch no one will use. (pausing repeatedly makes you unable to die, but takes extreme amounts of realtime to do)
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Seems like lots of people are working on this game, why isn't anyone finding go through walls shortcuts?
Probably because this isn't NES Metroid. Same reason that no one is finding shortcuts that bankrupt the computer players quickly; because this isn't NES Monopoly. Hey guys, why haven't you tried delaying your steps to get enemies to not attack? It worked in NES Dragon Warrior. Be sure to credit me in the submission text.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 685
Spider-Waffle wrote:
:words: 2-directions at the same time
I encourage you to read through this thread in its entirety. No such stone has been left unturned. Untold man-hours have been spent finding any way whatsoever short of fellating the development team to find just ONE MORE FRAME from the freaking Ceres segment, we've gotten stuck in walls and used it for sequence breaking already (it's slower than watching dry rot set in) and pressing two directions at once has no benefit at all in this game.
Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>