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Various details
  • Emulator used: Snes9x 1.43v9
  • Sync settings: Use WIP1 timing
Detils of the run:
  • Any% item collection
  • Aims for lowest ingame time
  • Manipulates luck
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Suggested screenshot:
91931 or 112962
About the movie
This is a Any% TAS of Super Metroid, the aim for the movie is lowest possible ingame time thus some realtime sacrifices are made to lower ingame time such as collecting certain items and using a route with more door entry's. The movie is 1477 frames or 24.6 seconds slower in realtime then the currently published any% run which aims for realtime but it is 5271 frames or 87.5 seconds faster in ingame time. The ingame endtime is 24:04:37 and item collection is 22%.
The reason why I choose to aim for the lowest ingame time is because in my opinion it is a little more entertaining to watch both because of the route and more variety in item use. The majority of the improvement came from the route change and the troizo skip, the rest simply comes from new strategies and optimization. It was hard to make this TAS, especially since it is my first one (aside from 3 other "test TASes" I made of this game before this) and Super Metroid is known to be quite a hard game to TAS. Without the help of other released TASes which more in depth learned me the uses of various tricks I would not have been able to make this.
There is (I think) a good chance this movie will not be accepted because I put a higher priority on ingame time then realtime but if that is the case I still hope that as many as possible will be able to enjoy it through SMV anyway.
Thanks to various persons (in no particular order)
Tonski: He was the one whos WIP's made me want to TAS this game, and he has always supported me.
Hero of the day: Have since the release of my first test TAS provided me with tips and help.
Moozooh: His two WIPs and his discovery of the torizo skip helped me alot.
JXQ: I used many strategies from his 100% run.
Saturn: Has invented many tricks which i have used, the shortest charge for an example.
Michale flately: The inventor of many tricks, the armpump and phantoon 1 round most notably.
Terimakashi: He raised the standard for SM TASes and his 00:27 TAS was what first made me interested in TASing.
Frenom: The first (from what i know) SM TASer.
Everyone (I don't know them all by name) who have produced and improved the tools that I have used, the memory watcher and all the snes9x improvements.
White Angel for having a godlike patience with me playing SM all the time.
Everyone whom I have forgotten are also Thanked, contact me if you feel that you deserve to be thanked.
Truncated: I think it is unfortunate that this movie aims for in-game time instead of real time. It cannot be published along with the current any%, because I do not think real/in-game time should be a valid differentiation between runs of the same game.
Therefore we are reinstating an old tradition at nes...tasvideos, to not publish an AVI or make a separate entry for a movie, but to link it from the current entry in emulator movie format only. Like I said to moozooh, don't think of it as a rejection, think of it as a non-publication.
Bisqwit: Setting the state to "cancelled" instead of "published" for technical and consistency reasons. It will still continue to be linked from the publication of that other movie.

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Posted: 9/11/2007 3:05 PM
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P.JBoy
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Maybe we should make a restartless sonic advance 3 run :-). It has the exact same goals as this run does, except with excessive use of restarting. The downfall of that run was the restarts, which could be translated into the pause screens for this run. This run doesn't abuse the pause screen like sonic advance 3 does. Why should this run not be accepted, just like sonic advance 3
Posted: 9/11/2007 6:55 PM
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Warp
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P.JBoy wrote:
Why should this run not be accepted, just like sonic advance 3
Precedents might work in the judiciary system, but I think that doesn't apply here. One would have to show that 1) the situation with sonic advance 3 was the same as with this run, and 2) accepting sonic advance 3 was not a mistake. Past mistakes don't justify repeating them. I'm not saying this run should not be published. I'm just pointing out a side point.
Posted: 9/11/2007 7:05 PM
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P.JBoy
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Warp wrote:
1) the situation with sonic advance 3 was the same as with this run, and 2) accepting sonic advance 3 was not a mistake.
1) The goal of in-game time>real-time 2) It's was entertaining I would expand on this, but I'm tired as of right now
Posted: 9/11/2007 7:43 PM
(Edited: 9/11/2007 8:22 PM)
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JXQ
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NES TAS of 2008 Speedy TAS of 2008 SNES TASer of 2007 TAS of 2007 SNES TAS of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
The reason I prefer real-time runs to in-game runs is because as a TASer, real-time makes sense to me. Using a different system of measurement for this game seems unnecessary, even though it is a well-defined system within the game itself. I see in-game time as (inadvertantly, but conveniently) removing some of the tasks of optimizing this game - including some aspects overall route planning and lag management. So it is less impressive for me to watch an in-game aimed TAS, though very minorly so. I think it's also important to note that in-game time is only displayed in minutes. Seeing more detail requires viewing the game's RAM. So, if a run improves the in-game time of a previous run by some seconds, but not enough to change the end time's minute marker, and it is slower in real-time, should this be a candidate for obsoletion? For that case, I would say no. But if I say no for that case, then I can't say yes to the case where the in-game minute is improved, because then I feel it would be basing much of the criteria on a changed viewable time, and that conflicts directly with the notion that the frame count should be taken with a grain of salt for in-game aiming runs. Although this run has in-game timer as a goal, I do not think the way this timer works in Super Metroid coincides well with the site, which displays the time of each run based on frame count. So, I would say that this should not obsolete the previous run. However, if it is not published, I believe that an explanation should be added to the currently published movie which links to this submission. And yes, some games do use in-game time, such as Sonic. So publishing it is not out of the question. The difference here is that the community is split on the issue. Maybe an informal poll regarding the feelings for this game would be enlightening. Also, I don't like the way discussions go on this subject, so don't expect me to elaborate my thoughts, here or otherwise. (This is why I waited this long to offer my opinion) Finally, I was entertained by this run, and voted yes. Edit: I just remembered that I mentioned a few days ago that I thought both kinds should be able to obsolete each other, similar to Bionic Commando (U) and (J). But after reading this post by Warp, I am not as favorable to that idea as I was.
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Posted: 9/11/2007 8:09 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
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jxq makes me read his big post and then, finally
JXQ wrote:
Finally, I was entertained by this run, and voted yes.
<3 jxq :)
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Posted: 9/11/2007 9:48 PM
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Truncated
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Saturn> I still think it's best to publish both runs alongside each other, because they aim for completely different goals. As suggested before, it would at least fit in the "concept demo" section. I liked this run and vote yes, provided it won't obsolete heros run. Although the future of this submission isn't decided, we can rule out publication alongside hero's run. It will either obsolete his run, or be rejected. We will have to respectfully disagree on "completely different goals".
Posted: 9/11/2007 9:54 PM
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Warp
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There are already three different movies of this game. It would indeed be questionable to have a fourth.
Posted: 9/11/2007 11:31 PM
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Callmewoof
Joined: 5/11/2006
Posts: 71
Warp wrote:
There are already three different movies of this game. It would indeed be questionable to have a fourth.
I agree. VERY questionable for a unique game with so many potential goals to have four published runs. http://tasvideos.org/490S.html http://tasvideos.org/340S.html http://tasvideos.org/1537S.html http://tasvideos.org/420S.html Questionable indeed.
Samus taught us that a girl doesn't need brains to be successful. Brains are giant, evil, and vulnerable to missiles.
Posted: 9/11/2007 11:49 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Man, these Metroid games are about as bad as Super Mario 64 with people wanting extra movies for a whole bunch of different rule sets.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 9/12/2007 5:02 AM
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TGPrimus
Joined: 11/16/2006
Posts: 66
I don't think that a run should be published if it has faster "game" time but slower real time, period. This is just an opinion however and no one cares. In this specific instance, getting a "perfect" in-game time would apparently, if my understanding of what I read is correct, require continuous use of the pause screen. That's completely unfeasable. Approaching perfection with a real time run is a lot more feasable. Plus the real-time lengths of these movies increase and decrease respectively. As for publishing the run alongside the other ones, I think we have too many runs for this game as it is. I don't think that the argument that we already have a lot of runs, therefore one more can't hurt is a good one.
Posted: 9/12/2007 6:16 AM
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Kyrsimys
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Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
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How about publishing it as .smv only, with only a mention and a link in the current movie's description? That used to be done a lot more, is there any reason why it's not done anymore?
Posted: 9/12/2007 7:06 AM
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Saturn
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Joined: 2/18/2005
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Cpadolf wrote:
Also Saturn, now that you have seen this what ingame time do you think you would be able to achive (given that nothing new will be discovered)
Sub-24, as usual. And comparing the part after Draygon of your run, you gained around 10-15 sec to my sloppy test-finish there. So I still think sub-24 is even possible without Torizo skip. It's just extremely close. :-)
JXQ wrote:
I think it's also important to note that in-game time is only displayed in minutes. Seeing more detail requires viewing the game's RAM. So, if a run improves the in-game time of a previous run by some seconds, but not enough to change the end time's minute marker, and it is slower in real-time, should this be a candidate for obsoletion? For that case, I would say no. But if I say no for that case, then I can't say yes to the case where the in-game minute is improved, because then I feel it would be basing much of the criteria on a changed viewable time, and that conflicts directly with the notion that the frame count should be taken with a grain of salt for in-game aiming runs.
In case you missed it, thats exactly what I mentioned all the time before. Aimig for the fastest possible realtime run (including removing all lag and other things just like in your/heros run, with only the mentioned before priorities above all this:
Saturn wrote:
1. Getting a 0:23 completion time (impossible to reach by aiming for realtime only) 2. Getting fastest possible escape times in Ceres and Zebes to set a universal record that is easy to see on any emulator 3. Collecting all the important items that give variety, increase entertainment and speed up the actual playthrough on cost of some realtime delays (HJ-Boots, Space Jump, Plasma etc.)
The skip pause screen point is unnecessary as Warp said, so I don't count it anymore. Obviously it would make the run alot longer in reatime by using even one of them. So of course, a 23:59 run with max possible optimized realtime is still better than a 23:35 one with slightly longer realtime.
Kyrsimys wrote:
How about publishing it as .smv only, with only a mention and a link in the current movie's description? That used to be done a lot more, is there any reason why it's not done anymore?
I can go ahead, encode and upload a TASvideos standard AVI to archive.org, so that you can just link to it for those who want to see a video of this run.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 9/12/2007 1:08 PM
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mike89
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Speaking as a speedrunner, I would just like to say that I find the notion of publishing a TAS due to faster in-game time equating to comparing TASes directly with speedruns is absurd. I haven't watched either run, nor have I even played Super Metroid, so I can't comment on entertainment merit. But the above strikes a chord with me as a speedrunner and I'm sure many of the regulars here don't want TASvideos to be represented in that way, intentionally or otherwise.
Posted: 9/12/2007 1:21 PM
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moozooh
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mike89 wrote:
Speaking as a speedrunner, I would just like to say that I find the notion of publishing a TAS due to faster in-game time equating to comparing TASes directly with speedruns is absurd. I haven't watched either run, nor have I even played Super Metroid, so I can't comment on entertainment merit. But the above strikes a chord with me as a speedrunner and I'm sure many of the regulars here don't want TASvideos to be represented in that way, intentionally or otherwise.
I think VANDAL means that going for ingame time makes it easier for unassisted players to relate to, both in terms of enjoyment and planning the strategies/tricks/routes for future unassisted runs, which is definitely a bonus rather than otherwise.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 9/12/2007 2:43 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
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Warp wrote:
There are already three different movies of this game. It would indeed be questionable to have a fourth.
nes metroid has four too
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Posted: 9/12/2007 3:01 PM
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Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
yeah, and if NES Metroid has 4, then we'll also need 4 publications for JAWS, right? providing arguments why these concepts are different enough to warrant a separate publication (or why they aren't) would be more constructive than pointing at NES Metroid each time.
m00
Posted: 9/12/2007 4:37 PM
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evilchen
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meh meh then stop saying 4 is no much and stuff :D ps: i knew it is a shitty argument but i felt like posting this when i watched my pwnage avatar <3 it +i believe in our judges to find a good answer to this discussion :)
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Posted: 9/12/2007 4:37 PM
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JXQ
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<Fabian_> guys I have an important question
<Fabian_> how many runs are there of NES Metroid?
<Fabian_> please respond in the form of a post on the forums
Fabian, there are four (4) runs of NES Metroid.
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Posted: 9/12/2007 4:51 PM
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adelikat
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Tub wrote:
yeah, and if NES Metroid has 4, then we'll also need 4 publications for JAWS, right?
ZOMB you insult me jaws movie!!111 *adelikatdies.wav
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Posted: 9/12/2007 10:45 PM
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mmbossman
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I have yet to watch the movie, but to me real time will always beat out in game time, for any game. If I see that a game is beaten in 24 minutes, I expect to use up 24 minutes of my life watching it, not 41. It's easier to understand, easier to visualize, and doesn't involve having to look at the game's RAM to figure it out. Whether or not this run is well done, I'm not happy about casting a vote for a movie that doesn't live up to my idea of correct timing.
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Posted: 9/12/2007 11:19 PM
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Callmewoof
Joined: 5/11/2006
Posts: 71
mmbossman wrote:
real time will always beat out in game time, for any game.
To be fair, if you applied this to 99% of the games it might work. But to say for ALL is foolish. If there was ever a game where in-game time is important, metroid has got to be it. This series was the first (I believe?) to introduce different game endings based on the time. Even if I'm wrong on that point, it rewarded players with the shocking revelation of Samus' gender because of TIME, which if you grew up in that era, was a HUGE DEAL for the whole video game world back then. Your less talented friends at school wouldn't even believe you unless you proved it to them (showing my age here). To compare, the Mortal Kombat II run is "longer" than it needs to be, if measured soley on the theory of 'real time trumps all', simply because nobody wants to watch a run of 1 character spamming the same combo ad nauseum. The run is made longer to showcase that UNIQUE goal for that UNIQUE game because it's what makes the game really shine, and makes the run entertaining. With Metroid, Time is one of the most interesting features for those who played this game, because unlike other games, TIME MATTERS in this game. I remember Nintendo Power articles many pages long dedicated to helping gamers get that sub-2 hour time. With TAS'ing, I find it satisfying to watch that time get crushed, and the lower in-game the more entertaining it is for me. And the pause screen isn't that big of a deal as long as it's not abused... sounds almost like asking an RPG not to open a menu or something. In fact, the pause screen (at phantoon) battle is used, what, to maximize the results from the dropped power-ups? ...not like we haven't seen that abused to death in RPG runs on this site (opening menus to avoid battles, get the correct RNG, manipulate turn order, etc etc etc). So why is one pause screen, which does add a sliver of real time, being beaten to death???
Samus taught us that a girl doesn't need brains to be successful. Brains are giant, evil, and vulnerable to missiles.
Posted: 9/13/2007 1:38 AM
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mmbossman
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Callmewoof wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
real time will always beat out in game time, for any game.
To be fair, if you applied this to 99% of the games it might work. But to say for ALL is foolish. If there was ever a game where in-game time is important, metroid has got to be it. This series was the first (I believe?) to introduce different game endings based on the time. Even if I'm wrong on that point, it rewarded players with the shocking revelation of Samus' gender because of TIME, which if you grew up in that era, was a HUGE DEAL for the whole video game world back then. Your less talented friends at school wouldn't even believe you unless you proved it to them (showing my age here). To compare, the Mortal Kombat II run is "longer" than it needs to be, if measured soley on the theory of 'real time trumps all', simply because nobody wants to watch a run of 1 character spamming the same combo ad nauseum. The run is made longer to showcase that UNIQUE goal for that UNIQUE game because it's what makes the game really shine, and makes the run entertaining. With Metroid, Time is one of the most interesting features for those who played this game, because unlike other games, TIME MATTERS in this game. I remember Nintendo Power articles many pages long dedicated to helping gamers get that sub-2 hour time. With TAS'ing, I find it satisfying to watch that time get crushed, and the lower in-game the more entertaining it is for me. And the pause screen isn't that big of a deal as long as it's not abused... sounds almost like asking an RPG not to open a menu or something. In fact, the pause screen (at phantoon) battle is used, what, to maximize the results from the dropped power-ups? ...not like we haven't seen that abused to death in RPG runs on this site (opening menus to avoid battles, get the correct RNG, manipulate turn order, etc etc etc). So why is one pause screen, which does add a sliver of real time, being beaten to death???
I guess the best way to explain my thinking is with the MK reference you made. Of course I wouldn't want to see a run just spamming the AI, I'd want to have time tradeoffs for entertainment. And to you, trying to get the lowest ingame time is an time tradeoff in favor of "entertainment". I put entertainment in quotes because, to me, aiming for ingame time is a rather artificial goal. There is already a perfectly good way of achieving the "fastest" time for the game, that is the real life time. I see it the same as the CCC run of Mario 64. I was entertained by it, but it had an artificial goal (a goal none the less). Similarly, you're entertained by the goal of ingame time. I can't say that you're not entertained by it, so I can't say you're wrong, but I can say that it's not an interesting goal to me (and probably not very interesting to too many people who don't play SM a whole lot, although I'm sure it is an impressive feat for the SM community). So the means by which you achieve this goal are a moot point, whether it be split second manipulation or route changes or whatever. To me, the entire premise simply isn't something I find entertaining. I hope I made my position a little bit clearer, I certainly have nothing against you or the run, the artificial goal is what makes me not like the idea.
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Posted: 9/13/2007 1:52 AM
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upthorn
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Callmewoof wrote:
mmbossman wrote:
real time will always beat out in game time, for any game.
words of disagreement
Let me fix mmbossman's statement to be universally applicable: for runs that aim for fastest completion: real time will always beat out in game time, for any game, so long as the player does not sacrifice game speed in favor of shortening score tally screens.
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Posted: 9/13/2007 2:32 AM
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Callmewoof
Joined: 5/11/2006
Posts: 71
to mmsbossman and upthorn, thanks for clarifying that. I see what you mean about entertainment being relative, and I suppose that the in-game timer is more of an artificial goal because of how it's numbers are measured vs. real time. I probably also liked this run, if nothing else, for the different route it used, and I think it compromised very little but I see your points as well. I do see how many (most) people feel real time is better, and I suppose it probably is. I *personally* feel metroid is the .0001% exception but that's based on my personal background with this game and so I'm biased on it.
Samus taught us that a girl doesn't need brains to be successful. Brains are giant, evil, and vulnerable to missiles.
Posted: 9/13/2007 3:08 PM
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P.JBoy
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mmbossman wrote:
If I see that a game is beaten in 24 minutes, I expect to use up 24 minutes of my life watching it
It's not as if it won't say how long the movie is (or in another term "how much key-input there is)
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