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emu
Active player (385)
Joined: 1/2/2007
Posts: 188
Location: Germany, Munich
I just watched your fight against seven force and enjoyed it very much. I can imagine how much pain it is to burn away so much HP in a tas. Still, there might be an issue to check: When frame advancing through parts of the fight, I saw that seven force is not damaged every frame due to lag and that there are some frames, where no damage is registered. Possibly, shooting with both players at once causes lags (maybe not, chaser+fire might be causing the lag alone). About not registered damage: I assume that whether actually no projectile hits or no damage is applied, when too many shots hit the boss. If that is the case, it would be better to shoot with one soldier, only. Still, I might be wrong and more damage cannot be delivered. I hope so, as redoing that part would be cruel.
Reviewer, Active player (286)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
The way the game works: Each gunner damages the boss every other frame, and they switch frames (not counting lag frames). Sometimes the game didn't register damage even though a weapon was hitting it. Usually it's just for one frame. I'm not sure what causes it. Both gunners firing at the same time cuases lag. I tested most of these bosses with two chasers, and they cause about as much lag as the other combination. Tails force just lags really bad. However, it will lag with just one gunner firing, too. When I use the fire-chaser, it's because moving the fixed gunner around while also concentrating on staying close enough to the boss and always pointing the gun toward him is impractical. I could use two chasers on crab force. However, that fight would just consist of both gunners hovering in front of the boss. I think my way looks better/has more movement/is more entertaining. Anyway, unless lag happens more than every other frame, both gunners is the better option. It's still a pain, though.
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Wow, I just watched it, and liked it a lot. That is probably one of the longest boss battles in video games every, and I can tell from your rerecords that it was a PITA to try to optimize. The lag only gets noticeable in one or two points, and it passes quickly. Just curious: is this still faster than the previous movie, or do the bosses get more HP because there's two players?
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Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
I have watched the WIP, and I can safely say I am looking forward to this run very much. Nice work.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Reviewer, Active player (286)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
The bosses have the same amount of HP, but the weapons are less effective. Going through frame-by-frame on Jackic's run, his weapon does six damage every frame, compared to my four, so this is slower than Jackic's run, and is now behind as well. Also, I had to fight all seven forces, while Jackic fought five (he didn't do crab or urchin force in his run). The game adjusts for two players by having each weapon only cause damage every other frame (which is kind of stupid in my opinion).
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Even though it may end up being slower in the end, it obviously has more thought put into it than the previous run, and I think it shows of a lot more of the diversity of the game. I'm not sure if you have an opinion, but I'd push for this to obsolete the old run even though it will be longer. Although you probably won't have to seriously consider that for a while, since you still have a ways to go.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
upthorn
He/Him
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Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802
arkiandruski wrote:
The bosses have the same amount of HP, but the weapons are less effective.
I think this is actually due to the fact that you're playing on expert, which the previous movie did not.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Reviewer, Active player (286)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
That's what I meant. He asked if the movie was faster, so I decided to list all the differences in damage and such between this and the published run.
Reviewer, Active player (286)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
That glitch from the dice maze just got more interesting http://sfkosmo.classicgaming.gamespy.com/treasure/games/gunstarheroes/trivia.html according to this, if you use it to fight Curry and Rice, he'll die after one bullet. Now that's a short fight. I think I'm going to test Black's stage for the glitches next
Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
upthorn wrote:
arkiandruski wrote:
The bosses have the same amount of HP, but the weapons are less effective.
I think this is actually due to the fact that you're playing on expert, which the previous movie did not.
Does a movie playing in a higher difficulty obsolete an easier run? I'd vote for this run to obsolete the current run if it continues to be played so well.
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
bkDJ wrote:
upthorn wrote:
arkiandruski wrote:
The bosses have the same amount of HP, but the weapons are less effective.
I think this is actually due to the fact that you're playing on expert, which the previous movie did not.
Does a movie playing in a higher difficulty obsolete an easier run? I'd vote for this run to obsolete the current run if it continues to be played so well.
I think it would obsolete the older run, if it wasnt being played as 2-player... IMHO one player and two player runs should be kept as seperate categories.
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
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IMO, there's no reasons to keep a single player run there, since it's very outdated, not even closely as entertaining as 2-p, and isn't even considerably faster.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Reviewer, Active player (286)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
I'm trying to build a good argument for obsoletion. Any help is appreciated. By the way, the 2 player Black Dice maze glitch works. Here's proof Not only is it a great time saver for me, it looks cool. I was lucky enough to hit it in realtime after many tries. Very lucky, in fact. There seems to be a one-frame leeway on this glitch. If you don't hit the right frame, it won't work. Naturally, it's not something that unassisted speedrunners should rely on. By the way, if you're wondering what I'm doing in the level leading up to the dice maze, I'm just goofing off. I managed to kill the phantom quickly again, but I still have no idea what the exact requirements for doing that are. While I'm here, I think I'm going to test different routes through the dice maze to see what would be better any other ideas for routes besides all threes and the one I suggested a while back would be appreciated. This is proof of concept, not a WIP. Sorry for the sloppiness. Update: Okay, I did enough testing to be satisfied with the mechanics of the dice palace. Here's what I found. Luck on the dice seems to be more based on when you jump rather than when you throw the dice, or I guess it's the last frame your feet were on the ground before you throw the dice. Curry and Rice did not go down with one hit from the weapon, so the fastest way to beat him is to throw him four times. Also it's quicker to take damage from his head after the fight is over than to let the head land harmlessly on the ground. The vortex base cannot be hit with body attacks, which means I'll have to rely on weapons. He has 2801 HP, which means at four damage a frame, I'll take him down in 700 frames, or 11.5 secs (not exact math). That's assuming no lag and being able to hit him every frame. One problem with the boss is player 1 has to hang from the rafters to even have a chance to hit him, and I'm not sure I can find a safe place that he can fire on every frame for. Another problem is the laser actually blocks player 1's shots. Each of the targets on the Gondola can be taken out in one throw. However, there are seven of them, which means I'll have to throw my partner seven times to beat it, compared with timeron who goes down after three. After testing both routes, I found that the one I suggested is a little bit faster, when you consider everything. Bringing the second player into battles with you, sometimes causes you to take fall damage. Places I know this happens are "destroy the tank", the vortex base, and Black's final battle. This isn't much of a problem in a TAS, though, especially since at the beginning of the level, I'll have 160 HP for each player. Another slightly glitchy thing about bringing both players into a boss battle is the player who threw the die will warp to the place he was supposed to start after the screen has fully loaded. This makes getting into position for some battles a little trickier, especially when it requires you to move. For the throw glitch, the first time you press "B" needs to be before the object you are about to throw is in range. I'm guessing that when the battle with Black is optimized, he will maybe barely be able to attack once before going down.
Reviewer, Active player (286)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
Hey, before I go on to things that are actually improvable time-wise, I was wondering if the vertical scrolling part of Orange's stage is entertaining enough. I have a few times where the players almost fall to their [20 damage], and I play with the ship as well. I found that the ship actually has a few pretty useless glitches, but I decided to show them anyway. If you have time, first watch it at full speed, and then in slow motion. Pay close attention to where the players enter and exit the ship. I'm trying in this run to include subtle things that might be missed the first few times as well as the big entertaining stuff (for example, counting down the bosses during the seven force fight). Enjoy.
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What exactly do you want us to watch? I assume you wanted to upload a WIP or something but forgot about about it?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Reviewer, Active player (286)
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Joined: 7/26/2006
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Great work! :)
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Joined: 4/17/2004
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Location: Sweden
I'm a little confused about using the only the weak homing weapon on some of 7-force's incarnations, though. Does it lag too much, or did you just want some variation? Other than that, it looks great.
Reviewer, Active player (286)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
The homing gun actually causes four damage a frame, just like the flame chaser. It might seem weak but it's really the same strength.
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What I didn't like about the autoscrolling part: too much offscreen action, especially in the first half. That's humorous when you hear a hit and see a body falling down, but I still prefer to see the full action. What I did like: continuous walljumping off the ship! And needless to say, the fighting sequence on the top deck was brilliant. I believe one could create a pretty cool platformer on GH engine even without all the guns. Movement possibilities are so underused in this game…
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Reviewer, Active player (286)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
I can see it. Putting more obstacles in the way, having sections which require wall jumps. It'd be very interesting, and fun, too if done well.
What I did like: continuous walljumping off the ship!
Glad you liked it. Took a while to set it up so it would work, but I figured it would be worth it. I think I just killed half of the knights who say "nee"
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arkiandruski wrote:
I think I just killed half of the knights who say "nee"
+100 for Holy Grail reference. And looking forward to further action.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Twisted_Eye
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Active player (397)
Joined: 10/17/2005
Posts: 632
Location: Seattle, WA
Amazing work so far! You've thrown a crapload of unnecessary entertainment into this movie so far, and the end result is absolutely spectacular. The movie would be unquestionably publishable ANYWAY, but when you took that extra time and effort to make your characters play PONG in the middle of falling down a huge shaft...Dang. Sweeet.
Joined: 12/20/2004
Posts: 226
I don't really have much to say other than great job! You've really taken the time to entertain the viewer. Like moozooh said, I would prefer more variety at the beginning of orange's stage. Maybe you could try following the bullets? Really though, just keep up the good work. And I was thinking of reasons this should obsolete jackic's run: 1. It's on a higher difficulty 2. Your run is much more entertaining. Comparing the two runs, it's obvious you are making a lot more effort to entertain the viewer. 3. Your run is more optimized, Jackic didn't even skip the boss intro text half the time. Sorry to beat up on your run Jackic, but it is old.
Reviewer, Active player (286)
Joined: 12/14/2006
Posts: 717
Following the bullets? I'm not quite sure what that means.
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