Essentials

  • Emulator used: FCEU 0.98.16
  • Genre: Platform
  • Aims for fastest time
    • Takes damage to save time
  • updated: moozooh's suggested screenshot (the greatest screenshot in the history of the world)

Version Change

Note: This run uses the (U) version of Bionic Commando. The previous movie by Genisto used the (J) version.
The initial reason was to include the hilariously bad dialogue. It has been said that the (J) version is the "harder" version, but we have found that to be not entirely true. There are quite a few differences, some which made the (U) version faster, and some which made the (J) version faster.
Regarding a ROM version change, the Rules page states the following:
If there is already a published video, do not use a different ROM than what it uses, unless the new movie is obviously better for reasons that are not only caused by the version change, or the ROM is superior (or a language change), and you can show how it should be compared to the existing movie.
Since the previous run was done with the (J) version, a direct comparison of end times is not an informative enough way to measure the differences in play. So, we've separated the differences into four categories and totaled them up.
In-level difference - Gained 1463 frames
This is the (mostly) directly comparable improvement gained during each level. Time was gained from better technique for many sections, especially the bosses, as well as retracting more with the grappling hook, which moves the guy a bit faster at the exchange of slightly less distance and less landing control. Time was also gained by keeping the 3-way gun for Area 7 instead of restarting the level.
Some of the in-level difference was due to in-level changes between the two versions, such as different enemy or platform placement. A rough estimation of this difference is between 60 and 90 frames.
Text speed difference - Lost 3185 frames
The text boxes scroll slower and hold more words in this version.
Scene change difference - Gained 110 frames
Minor differences in the number of frames between two controllable scenes, such as the title screen and room transitions. This was usually faster in the (U) version.
Map route difference - Gained 1741 frames
Slower text changes the relative position of the trucks during a given route on the world map, because the helicopter does not begin traveling to another area until the text "Ok. We'll move." is fully displayed, but the trucks begin moving immediately after selecting "Transfer". This allowed for better route on the world map, with more direct routes to some areas, as well as playing one less overhead stage. (This same route in the (J) version will enter six overhead stages.)
Total difference - Gained 129 frames
If you'd like to see a complete spreadsheet of this data broken down for each segment, please ask.

Cardboard's comments

I HAVE PAID MY DUES

JXQ's comments

The Bionic Commando (J) run on this site has been one of my favorites ever since I've been here. It sometimes felt odd obsoleting it.
This game is remarkably stable to hex-edit in early improvements found into a run that is farther along. This game is remarkably unstable with FCEU while rerecording in a laggy area, such as 6, 9, 10, or 11.
Thanks to Cardboard for being my partner, and to Genisto for his previous run.

Truncated: This movie has a better route and much better playing in the levels than the previous movie.
In response to all the arguments about the version switch: I dislike version switches. If it was up to me, the rules would state that all movies be played on (U) versions, unless it didn't exist or (E) or (J) included a glitch or shortcut or game element not in the (U) version. That way we wouldn't have any of this nonsense, or people switching ROMs just because the intro or dialogue is shorter, which has no bearing on the quality of play.
Also because i dislike version switches, I'm glad that this movie has now changed back to the "real" version, which the first published movie was made with, before it changed to the (J) version for no good reason at all.
Bisqwit: I don't think we have reached a concensus about whether this should obsolete the J version or not. I'm putting it on delayed. And, I disagree with the assessment of "no good reason at all"; in my opinion, Feitclub's reasoning re: J version was good.
BoltR: Since there is no rush to make a decision about this movie, and it's just causing an argument; I am setting the status to Needs More Info. We can wait until the updated (J) version is complete and pick up the debate from there. Blame version changing.
Bisqwit: Setting back on accepted, and to obsolete the current J version. However, the question what happens when the next J version is submitted, is still open. Some say only U versions should be accepted from here on, and some say any faster version regardless of version should be accepted. There may be someone who also thinks the next J version should be published alongside, but it doesn't seem to be a likely option. Such decision however does not need to be made until such movie exists and is submitted. However, if this movie is still in the workbench at that time, it will be delayed because then also its fate is in question. (We don't publish movies that already have their obsoleter in the workbench.)
Bisqwit: Processing.


1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Former player
Joined: 8/12/2004
Posts: 651
Location: Alberta, Canada
Baxter wrote:
I think this is a very bad choice.: - If both runs will be published, then there was no need for the wait. - If only the US version will be published, then someone is going to spend lots of time on a run that is going to be rejected, which is a pure waste of time for that person. - If only the J version will be published, then why not decide now? We can already see the US version, and we know how the J version is going to look.
<BoltR> jimsfriend, currently there are 25 runs in queue <BoltR> It's not like delaying it is going to stem the flow of videos <Bisqwit> Yes, deciding on that particular TAS is not an issue of utmost urgency. JXQ, the run isn't just 'possibly going to be completed', it is something that WILL happen. Delaying to see the result of the run won't do anything but help people make a better, more informed decision. What does it matter if it's delayed anyways? People can still watch the fcm of your run. It's the same argument someone used against Phil. Except the chances of someone watching something in the workbench is much higher than in the obsolete bin.
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
BoltR wrote:
JXQ, the run isn't just 'possibly going to be completed', it is something that WILL happen.
Give me a motherfucking break you ignorant ignorant IGNORANT person. We have a run to compare it to now, but no! We need to wait for a new submission (that, by the way, has no guarantee of being completed, despite your claim which is based on... oh what's it based on? That's right, not a damn thing) and compare it to that! I don't care about publication beyond the obsoletion message being present and correct, which is a very annoying thing around here to me. I do care that because Bisqwit likes it this certain way, things are delayed, reargued, reworded, and reasked over and over despite popular consensus, despite a judge's decision, and despite the fact that besides Phil, the movement to not have this obsolete the current run is close to nil. Yes, it's Bisqwit's site (please spare me that stupid fucking retort), but if we are led to believe that our opinion matters, when it ultimately does not, then that's just dishonest and hypocritical. I can repeat the same questions, too. How about this one: What kind of majority is needed to reach this "consensus" Bisqwit is waiting for?
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
I know it's a bad palce to post that and it should be elsewhere but since that thread is active and don't want to create an Hitler no Fukkatsu thread, I've still decided to put it here. Here is my WIP: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/5119/Hitler%20no%20Fukkatsu%20-%20Top%20Secret%20%28J%29.fcm Edit: Btw, for those that want to read text in english go there: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/file/589339/2970 (Copy/paste)
Experienced player (829)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Phil wrote:
Edit: Btw, for those that want to read text in english go there: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/file/589339/2970 (Copy/paste)
Since we *obviously* all want to be switching between an emulator and a web browser while watching a movie. You're missing the point entirely, the English isn't important because of the super-duper plot (OMG are they really going to try to kill our hero? NOOO), it's there for the viewer to have something to do during the waiting time. The waiting times of video games are the boring parts, and people today have short attention spans, so a little reading in between action keeps the brain occupied. Having unknown symbols that we (non-Japanese speaking people) don't understand creates discontinuity in the movie that makes it worse to watch.
Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page
Active player (436)
Joined: 9/27/2004
Posts: 650
Location: Canada
I try not to get involved with these arguments because it's hard to seperate the actual discussion from the clash of egos, but I would like to throw in my 2 cents in this case. I don't particularly care if the (J) or the (U) rom is used, as long as the actual gameplay is better/faster. I don't really read the game dialogue regardless of the language. I don't really care about minor graphical changes. I don't even really care if the dialogue is slower. Swastikas are not more interesting than words in English and vice versa. Opimized gameplay is what I like. Given 2 runs with the exact same gameplay and the only difference being English vs Japanese, Censored vs Uncensored, I'd pick the (U) version since it's what I'm familiar with. A (U) run should not obsolete a (J) run with the same quality ingame play and vice versa (unless there was an 'obvious' rom to use, and this game does not have an 'obvious' choice).
Player (150)
Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 688
Location: WA State, USA
I agree with Inzult.
Nach wrote:
I also used to wake up every morning, open my curtains, and see the twin towers. And then one day, wasn't able to anymore, I'll never forget that.
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
mmbossman wrote:
Since we *obviously* all want to be switching between an emulator and a web browser while watching a movie.
Obviously I didn't recommend doing that.
Former player
Joined: 3/30/2004
Posts: 1354
Location: Heather's imagination
Thanks for that truck fight, Phil. That's the kind of thing I was looking for. But maybe your WIP and the obsolete/auxiliary discussion should be split off?
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster. I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
ventuz
He/Him
Player (126)
Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940
Wow, this argument is epic. Anyway, I don't normally want to get involved in argument, but I wanted to express what I think what's right and what's wrong in hoping to reduce argument in here. If you go buy a DVD movie - Shaolin Soccer, for example - it comes in the U.S. Theater Version and Chinese Version. The U.S. version last 1 hour 30 minutes while the Chinese version last 2 hours. The U.S. version has English voice-acting but has 30 minutes worth content cut out, while the Chinese version has all the content but no English voices available. I feel that that is the exact same as the (U) and (J) ROM difference. To me publishing U over J is not right, you can't expect exactly the same bugs, glitches, and/or speed in both of them. I know obsolete movies won't be deleted, but it's about publishing. So think it over for this situation, is it right if they decided to put in ONLY the U.S. theater version, with no extra content seen at all in your Shaolin Soccer DVD? Would you be happy? The quality of the run is good, but please don't put it over (J) version. Separate category is OK with me. Or maybe you should PM Bisqwit asking about version switch before starting a run next time? *note - I know there's a few ROM switch's, I wasn't there for argument to make separate category.
Former player
Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp
yeah, but the US version isn't competing with the Chinese version over speed.
Borg Collective wrote:
Negotiation is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You will be assimilated.
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
laughing_gas wrote:
yeah, but the US version isn't competing with the Chinese version over speed.
At procreation speed, US is far from China. ;)
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
"I don't see any reasoning at all in feitclub's submission. He lists some differences between the two games. He states that it's up to you (Bisqwit) if you want to 1) replace it because it's faster 2) list it as a second game. That time, you chose 1). The situation is exactly the same as now; this is faster. If version differences are taken into consideration, it is actually quite a lot faster, about 23 seconds, than a version that most people thought was "OMG WTF!" and which has had a star for a long time. But for some reason (which is unclear to me) you want to choose 2) this time." "If you are going to revert my decision, I think you should state what it's going to be instead. Like JXQ said, it feels like "reach a consensus" in this case really means you think we should change our minds and start to agree with you, which we don't and probably won't. I think 39 to 3 is a good enough consensus." Two interesting points I don't think recieved much attention. This really does reek of bullshit and favoritism, despite what Bisqwit might say. Seriously Bisqwit, take this to heart. If you want to decide for yourself that's fine, but make it clear that's what's going on. Don't come here talking about consensus and popular opinion when we have 40 yes votes and 4 no/meh. It's dishonest and doesn't reflect on you well at all.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Active player (411)
Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
Yes, 40 yes vote for "Did you like watching this movie? " Not for "Must it obsolete HnF?" Thinking of that, I change my vote for Meh. The run was good overall. There was some good part in the run but also some sloppy parts.
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
Fabian wrote:
Don't come here talking about consensus and popular opinion when we have 40 yes votes and 4 no/meh.
The votes don't reflect anything on what kind of publication decision should be made. It just tells that people liked watching this movie. I'm sorry for the apparent fact that I cannot possess a different opinion without people thinking I'm "favoriting" someone or "ganging". Apparently my word is not enough. Hence I can only ignore those claims; from my perspective, they being false they're detrimental to the actual discussion.
Bisqwit wrote:
I see 3 options: 1) Favor J and ditch U 2) have J and U alongside 3) favor U and ditch J. JXQ claims that audience says 1) is out of question. If that's true, so be it. I'm worried about 2) because of the precedent it sets (explained in an earlier post), but otherwise I'd like that option. I can do 3) if people are okay with it. After all, J is still accessible in the history list. However, before taking 3), I'd want to be absolutely sure that both 2) and 1) are out of question.
is what I wrote last night… I am repeating it here to address someone's claim that I'm aiming for a certain answer and not taking anything else.
Editor, Expert player (2480)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
I think it's a great waste of resources to let good tasers argue badly. The pareto optimal solution would be to publish both movies.
Former player
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland
I say publish this one and establish a rule that all future movies must use the (U) version. I prefer (U) versions in general, so that's just me. Should you choose to reject this, the rules must be altered because as JXQ has stated, this submission does meet the conditions given for a version change at the rules page. Kinda feels like screwing JXQ & CB over, though. I don't think having two almost identical movies published at the same time just because of very minor version changes is a good idea. As has been said, it would set a bad precedent and create further chaos and disagreement.
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
About the voting question, Point taken, though I don't really agree. Let's save the discussion about that question and what it really answers for another thread though. I take back what I said about favoritism and I'm sorry about that. I don't have a strong opinion here, I'm not opposed to having two versions of one game co-exist. What has mainly bugged me about this discussion is this "If you want to decide for yourself that's fine, but make it clear that's what's going on." Having the site owner revoke a judging decision is, like I said, fine. You are the site owner after all. You and another very vocal gentleman are (almost, ventuz? or someone too) the only people opposed to accepting this run though. "Discussing it further" after everyone's opinions are already in, the majority has spoken, a judge has already accepted the movie, etc, just comes across as.. I dunno, not great. Make it clear that your opinion is the only important one, and I think you'd be hearing less protests. Certainly less from me, anyway.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332
I can do 3) if people are okay with it. After all, J is still accessible in the history list
FWIW, that's exactly what I'd have suggested.
upthorn
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Active player (392)
Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802
Bisqwit wrote:
I see 3 options: 1) Favor J and ditch U 2) have J and U alongside 3) favor U and ditch J. JXQ claims that audience says 1) is out of question. If that's true, so be it. I'm worried about 2) because of the precedent it sets (explained in an earlier post), but otherwise I'd like that option. I can do 3) if people are okay with it. After all, J is still accessible in the history list. However, before taking 3), I'd want to be absolutely sure that both 2) and 1) are out of question.
There's a 4th option you're overlooking. 4) Favor neither rom version, allow future (J) runs to obsolete this (U) run, if they are faster after version differences are taken into account. Allow this (U) run to obsolete the current (J) run, as it is faster after version differences are taken into account. This would be furthering the precedent that localization differences are not important between NTSC versions of a ROM. This is a precedent which has been shown on prior occassions, the most recent of which was Rockman 7's obsoletion of Megaman 7.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Former player
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
jimsfriend and I was JUST (literally 10 seconds ago) discussing exactly what you just posted Upthorn. High five! and also I agree with that, but I'm not sure how realistic it is considering some people (important people) feel very strongly about one particular ROM version here. Anyway like I said I agree.
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
BoltR wrote:
Baxter wrote:
I think this is a very bad choice.: - If both runs will be published, then there was no need for the wait. - If only the US version will be published, then someone is going to spend lots of time on a run that is going to be rejected, which is a pure waste of time for that person. - If only the J version will be published, then why not decide now? We can already see the US version, and we know how the J version is going to look.
<BoltR> jimsfriend, currently there are 25 runs in queue <BoltR> It's not like delaying it is going to stem the flow of videos <Bisqwit> Yes, deciding on that particular TAS is not an issue of utmost urgency.
Did you just completely miss my point? I said it did kinda matter that it was decided on quickly, since someone may be wasting his time on making a J run, if it's decided that only the U run will be published. (And please, don't let the U run obsolete the J run now, and let a J run obsolete the U run later. Make a clear choice on which version must be TASed, or if both versions can be TASed.)
Joined: 8/13/2005
Posts: 356
Location: Canada
Inzult's already said it: I'll vote for the faster movie unless there's a substantial difference in entertainment value. In this case there isn't, and this movie is faster. The graphical differences shouldn't even be a factor. I wouldn't prefer any other game with all the sprites hacked to be Hitler, nor would I prefer a hack of any game with additional pointless engrish.
Skilled player (1410)
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 1821
FreshFeeling wrote:
Inzult's already said it: I'll vote for the faster movie unless there's a substantial difference in entertainment value. In this case there isn't, and this movie is faster.
If you vote for the fastest possible completion of the game, and totally don't care about version differences, or playing quality, then you should vote no on this run... since it can be completed faster on the J version.
Joined: 8/13/2005
Posts: 356
Location: Canada
Yes, but it hasn't been.
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
upthorn wrote:
There's a 4th option you're overlooking.
You're right.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7