I've noticed many people voting yes because of those screenshots...

If a screenshot can effectively sway a viewers vote, then we have a bigger problem on this site than this run. I, however, have a little more faith in the voters here and believe that this has been voted yes on for several reasons: It is ultimately faster than the previous run; it is as entertaining as the previous run; and a majority of the people who visit this site speak English and not Japanese, which means there's actually something to read during the text scenes. I don't really care about whether a run uses a different ROM than its predecessor, as long as the same entertainment can be received from it. EDIT: Yes vote, lots of swinging, and Hitler and his base "explod" -ed. I agree that the translations weren't making me roll on the floor laughing, but they did get a smirk or two out of me and it was better than staring at text I couldn't understand.

Voting yes based solely on moozooh's screenie. (read: Not voting yet) I'm glad to see that Genisto's HnF run was “improvable”: every time I would allude to a newer/faster run possibility, people would jump down my throat to defend the existing run's “perfection”. Who is the weld king now, Tom Thompmore? +10 Zurreco

I've noticed many people voting yes because of those screenshots...

If you think that's a problem, go see what a few people have said about the River City Ransom run, which has a star. (I can recall at least four people saying that if the description of the run had not included the "beware of people wielding trashcans" line, it would not have been worth watching.) Having played this game in my childhood (in English), I knew what that line in the screenshot was before I watched the run. I didn't find it funny in the first place. (Personally, I'd like a screenshot of destroying that reactor in section 7 with the 3-way shot, because I always remember that being a difficult room to clear. Also, if I'm not much mistaken, the run on SDA also cancels out of that area after clearing the obstruction so he can run it with the Rocket Launcher, whereas I never knew about that trick so I just cleared the area with the 3-way gun anyway.) But after watching this and comparing it to the published run, it's clear (to me, at least, as someone who played this game way back in the day and knows how hard some of these things are in real-time) that this one is better-played. I don't give a damn about the language change or the fact that the J rom is "harder"*. This is a better quality run that overcomes the slowed-down text scrolling by more than just a few frames. Yes vote. *: It's not. I can tell you just from what I remember that the platforming aspect of this game was way more complicated and, more to the point, skill-based than the actual presence of the enemies. The authors of both movies have done a remarkable job ignoring the bullets so you'd never be able to tell it from these movies, but just during the regular course of game play you end up with a huge bar of hitpoints amazingly quickly, and the reward from clearing area 1 is an item which lets you recover the entirety of your health bar once per area. As such, later in the game, taking damage is nothing, whereas missing your jump is instant death. So a more difficult platform-aspect of this game would more than compensate for fewer or simply more conveniently-placed enemies. But, hey, that's just one man's opinion.

I don't actually expect that screenshot to be considered for a published movie. I just thought it was funny. I find the dialogue to be very humorous. What can I say? Badly translated English brings me smiles. This isn't awful like Zanac awful, but the sentences often don't seem to "fit" into the situation. It's not the funniest thing in the world, but it is entertaining. If anything, switching versions placed a burden on the process. That doesn't imply that it's more fun to watch; it simply means that there is extra work to be done when comparing two versions, and we have done that extra work, putting the two compared runs on equal ground. The submission text was written as clearly as we know how. Everything about the version switch is right there in it, including the rules that we are not breaking, and so if someone does not understand the reason for a switch, I'm not sure how else to word it. I thought, like many probably did, that the (J) version was indeed a more difficult version. I thought this primarily because of the previous movie's description. But during the TAS, we saw instances of changes that did not make sense to the goal of making the game easier for a different version. I really don't know why these things were changed. Cardboard listed some of the examples of differences that were not in our favor, but if you watch both runs, you can find many more. It is also listed in the submission text that the estimated difference due to in-level version switching is 60 to 90 frames in favor of the (U) version. If anyone is not entertained by the movie, I encourage them to exercise their right to vote no, and to explain why they don't like it. That's the important part to remember, if they wish to be taken seriously.

wow, nice work guys. I'm a huge fan of this game, so a new version is pretty exciting :)

A night of firsts for me... first time watching through an emulator, first time watching 2 versions at once, and first time being undecided on my vote. =/ I still voted yes - however I contemplated voting meh many times through the movies. I still went with it for one major reason - this is a tool assisted SPEEDrun. If you can take a game and get through it faster, it should be published over slower attempts, regardless of a language or locale change. Difficulty should be considered though - but this game dosen't have a "hard" mode. I'll agree the platforming aspects could be considered "harder" IMHO, and the falling lawnmovers weren't in the published run, but honestly the game is so similar in how you proceed I think this point is moot. The meh comes from thinking the original was more "entertaining" with the wait periods when the reactors were blowing up. Toward the end however, it about equaled out with 2 cool wait periods each, and about 5 ho-hum ones. I'd prefer to see this game improved with more entertainment over speed at this point. (I'll add the crazy arm swinging was very entertaining in both versions however, and both movies showed execelent abilities in that aspect.) BUT - it's faster by 2 seconds. I think this should be published over the old one, for that reason alone.

Could a more significant overall improvement have been gained using the original rom?

Could a more significant overall improvement have been gained using the original rom?

Yes. The version differences altogether (text speed, route change, scene change) favor the (J) version by about 22 seconds. If a comparable map route was found on (J), that would make it even faster. We actually didn't know if we would be faster than the previous run or not when we started. It was a nice goal to aim for.

I did watched both movies at same time. While it's true that Jap text is usually quicker, I've noticed 1-2 times that US text is faster. Also, from what I remember from Genisto, those trucks weren't manipulable which gives an advantage for the US version. Though, I'm not sure if it is still true since the movie was done with Famtasia and at those times, we weren't really familiar using memory watcher and such for timeattacks. I've noticed 3-4 part of your movie that was really quicker. I also noticed some improvements here and there but I also noticed couple of minor errors here and there and some of them weren't in Genisto run. I vote No for using different version. I vote No, I can't tolerate movies with errors(Even if they are really minor) not present in older runs. I also vote no because I don't see the supposed harder parts in US version. I am voting no mainly because of version diffferences. I wish that they will redo it with the J version.

Phil: Why do you say that there are errors/mistakes in this run, but fail to mention specifically what they are? For all you know, those aren't mistakes. There is no reason to use the J version. Faster text has no bearing on the action scenes, and hence should not affect the entertainment value. Neither version is harder nor easier than the other, so that is a moot point.

While it's true that Jap text is usually quicker, I've noticed 1-2 times that US text is faster.

The spreadsheet contains proof against this statement. You can find it in the submission text, located here: http://tasvideos.org/1513S.html Since the other statements you make are based upon your own opinion, I will not try to prove you wrong.

Also, from what I remember from Genisto, those trucks weren't manipulable which gives an advantage for the US version.

We weren't able to manipulate them either, except for taking a different route, which is not really manipulation. I feel it is entertaining and unexpected to glitch through a truck on the world map, and as a bonus, the same overhead stage is not played back-to-back.

I don't see the supposed harder parts in US version.

Cardboard outlined several examples in this post. I feel no need to re-re-explain it to you, as I would rather just take your "no" vote and end the discussion.

JXQ = Yes Also i think funny dialogue, if it makes the run more entertaining as a whole, is a perfectly legitimate reason to replace a movie. I mean entertainment is a goal here right?

Yes vote on this run quality, but no on version change. Shouldn't obsoletes J version.

I am curious to know the origin for the rule about not changing versions.

If there is already a published video, do not use a different ROM than what it uses, unless the new movie is obviously better for reasons that are not only caused by the version change

What I understand from this sentence is that the new "obviously better" movie should be better for reasons other than a version change, which can only mean an improvement that is possible on both versions. This essentially says that changing versions is okay as long as there is an improvement, after version differences are removed. This submission meets that qualification.

or the ROM is superior (or a language change)

I'm not sure how a ROM can be superior, but this submission definitely qualifies as a language change.

and you can show how it should be compared to the existing movie.

We have done this in the submission text, and in great deal on the corresponding spreadsheet. Version changes have been allowed in many cases for different reasons:

• Super Mario Bros. 3 - (J) to (U) - Gained time from the version switch.
• Mega Man X2 - (U) to (J) - Gained time from the version switch.
• Mega Man X2 - (J) to (U) - Lost time from the version switch (note that this is the exact same scenario as this submission).
• Mega Man 3 - (U) to (J) - "The Japanese version was used because of a shorter intro screen."
• Contra 2-player and pacifist - (U) to (J) - Gained time from the version switch, as well as more detailed graphics in some levels.

Other situations worth mentioning:

• Rygar - The (E) version is used because a specific glitch works only on that version. This is mostly* comparable to passing through an enemy truck in the (U) version of Bionic Commando.
• Blue Shadow - This game has been erroneously recorded at incorrect speeds through several improvements. I believe the stigma and rule against version changes is responsible for this error being continued through several versions.

It's not like Cardboard and I are trying to deceive anyone with a version switch. All the necessary information is in our submission text, breaking the game into many many parts and classifying each difference into an appropriate category. It's also not like we have hardly improved the movie - we are 25 seconds faster in the levels and 30 seconds faster with the route. This is a significant improvement. The former, except for a very small percentage (estimated as 60 to 90 frames), is possible on both versions of the ROM. The latter, is an unexpected and entertaining improvement indirectly due to the version switch. These improvements are offset by the version difference of slower scrolling text, which is readable, and sometimes worded in a humorous way. To reject this submission in favor of the previous version would be against the rules, but more importantly, it would be against the philosophy of the site to produce entertaining movies. *It is most likely possible to do enough setup to produce the glitch on the (J) version, however not without losing more time than will be gained.

one of my favorite games of all time, played nicely and quickly, i liked it a lot. PI PI PI YES.

jolly grand ol' chap, of course my dear lads

Nice job guys! And that is best screenshot ever! ;D

I'm glad to see a speedrun of this game in the version familiar to my childhood. Easy yes vote.

Version changes have been allowed in many cases for different reasons: * Super Mario Bros. 3 - (J) to (U) - Gained time from the version switch. * Mega Man X2 - (U) to (J) - Gained time from the version switch. * Mega Man X2 - (J) to (U) - Lost time from the version switch (note that this is the exact same scenario as this submission). * Mega Man 3 - (U) to (J) - "The Japanese version was used because of a shorter intro screen." * Contra 2-player and pacifist - (U) to (J) - Gained time from the version switch, as well as more detailed graphics in some levels.

SMB3: The precedent version was done on Famtasia so there is timing difference between FCEU which is generally slower than Famatasia. Also, there was a consensus that many people take part to use the US version before the author made the movie which is not the case for you. The US version is indeed faster mainly because of black screen, between levels, that always lasts shorter. Contra: Same as SMB3. It has been 2 years before adelikat made the run that many people had agreed to use the J version + there is indeed better graphics in the waterfall stage. Any Mega Man games: I can't give my opinion. I don't know any details. I usually don't follow anything related to that serie. In conclusion, I think this movie may be published though, it shouldn't obsolete the J version. There are too many differences. It's almost 2 different games. Edit: It seems the remove wall glitch in stage 15 doesn't exist in the J version. You should mention things like that in your submission.

Edit: It seems the remove wall glitch in stage 15 doesn't exist in the J version. You should mention things like that in your submission.

Some of the in-level difference was due to in-level changes between the two versions, such as different enemy or platform placement. A rough estimation of this difference is between 60 and 90 frames.

Also, I am a little curious if it shouldn't have been faster for Genisto to dive under the platform, so he could still keep swing.

Hmm, about a three second improvement on an already optimized run, that's good. The change to the US rom because it's english (among other things non-language related-wise) is nearly engrish doesn't really matter much to me, I usually don't read the text in TASes all too much. I also found that the old run utilized the waiting times with more diversity in the entertainment department so that's another downside. Besides that, it's nice to see an improvement but unfortunately not incentive enough to get my yes vote. Meh, it'll most likely be published anyway as it has much reason to be. I say this with the utmost respect to anyone, the TASers and judges/encoders.

Phil, Though you and I cannot communicate effectively to each other, I still feel the need to defend our submission against your claims. Your statements do not change the fact that these version changes still occured, which was my point. Every game has its circumstances, including this one. The most important example there is:

• Mega Man X2 - (J) to (U) - Lost time from the version switch (note that this is the exact same scenario as this submission).

In level differences: Area 15 - (J) cannot shoot away the wall (40 frames faster in (U)) Area 5* - Last enemy in first segment does not shoot (15 frames faster in (U)) Area 3 - less platforms in two spots (15 frames faster in (U)) Area 6* - Less lag in middle section (30 frames faster in (U)) Area 6 - No moving platforms in second section (15 frames faster in (J)) Area 10 - Top laser cannon in facing the other way (5 frames faster in (J)) Area 10 - Sludge moved differently (15 frames faster in (J)) Area 10 - Falling lawn mowers at the end (1 frame faster in (J)) Area 11 - Boss, lasers fire differently (5 frames faster in (J)) Total: 60 frames faster in (U) version. The entries with *'s indicate the most difficult to estimate portions, so I added 60-90 frames, which is exactly what was indicated in the submission text. These are indeed estimates, so it may be more or less, so if you make some tests and these numbers are incorrect, please don't say things like "we are lying". Hell, you can make a giant over-correction of 60-900 frames, and we still gained 10 seconds on the previous run's levels. Had I put this information in the submission text, you would have complained about its length and/or not read it. Lastly, if this does not obsolete the (J) version, what happens when someone improves with the (J) version? That's a bad situation waiting to happen.

As for Area 15, Genisto could have made that first part of the level at least 10 frames faster, so the version change alone does not gain us 40 frames.