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Posted: 3/27/2007 9:51 PM
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Rising_Tempest
Player (168)
Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada
I'd already though of getting guards to open locked doors on this level a la Aztec, but the problem is that there's two of them that need the same key to be opened (Large Key). I got the door to the safe key hut open after a couple hours of screwing around this afternoon- but I can't see the same trick working for the other hut. Whatever the case, this door is -MUCH- harder to get opened than the Aztec one. I thought of setting the alarm off via the far camera and see if guards would come out of the safe hut. They don't. The guards are very slow to get to the door of the safe-key hut anyway, so having to go out of the way at all to get the second locked door open would cost too much time for this to be an actual time-saver. Luring the guard out of the GL hut is possible, and will save a few seconds as I'll be skipping the GL as well. Only problem, is because of the sloped terrain near this hut I have to be fairly close to put shots through the window. Thusly, he'll stop shortly after leaving the hut instead of running towards me (of course, I can manipulate him to do the "charging attack" animation). Another idea I've had was to use one of the sniper towers to be able to put bullets through that window from further away- though I'd lose about a second to do so. But, the guard won't see me as soon as he leaves the hut and will run towards my position a bunch, and this would likely save more time than it takes to climb the tower and fire a couple shots. Or, if I go behind the "explosive" hut, I think I can see the GL hut sooner, this may be another way to get him to run towards me when leaving the hut, and won't lose time from climbing a tower. I'll have to make some noise to attract guards for boosts though. I'll probably take today and tomorrow to gather more information about any possible time savers I can think of before starting the level.
Posted: 3/28/2007 5:56 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
That's great that you got the door open. But your saying that you need the large key to get into the safe hut; is this correct? If so, that's a shame. If you have to do two door tricks then there is no way this could save time. Are you saying you can shoot through the window from the sniper tower by the start? If you can do that, well then, wow, that seems worth it. Also going around the left of the explosive hut I think is a little faster than the right just in general. Henrick made a map with moon jump and I drew a straight line to the door with the key guy behind it, it went right by the left corner of the explosive hut. People like going right because it's easier. I think you know what to do. What time are you thinking? Getting 7-8 boosts, which I think you can do, would save over a second right there. Getting the large key from outside, but having to shoot the locks, should save 1-5 seconds, depending on how far you can get him. I’m thinking 1:45 sounds about right.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/28/2007 2:10 PM
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Wyster
Active player (301)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
If i remember correctly you don't need a key to open the door to the safe. I'm almost certain i was able to go instantly to the safe(without being able to open it of course). If you could hit the window from the FIRST tower than that would be awesome but is it really possible? I can't really imagine the window being visible from there. Else you could go around the explosive hut, fire a shot and run behind the sniper tower so he doesn't see you and continue running. Or possibly just wait there for him to get to you? (This was used on Aztec with Jaws back in the days but i'm not sure if he warped towards you or something?
Posted: 3/28/2007 11:49 PM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Well it should be easy to confirm that. Anyone? If you only need to open the door to the safe key hut this could be a great time saving strategy, we should find this out ASAP to help Jack. Gosh, I’m bringing my 64 from my parents’ house next chance I get. Waiting for the key guard is no good. You run much faster than he does. They waited for Jaws while killing tons of the guards that were following them. Also if they went to take Jaws on head on they would get shot up by tons of guards. It wasn’t because Jaws could get there so fast.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/30/2007 12:21 AM
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Rising_Tempest
Player (168)
Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada
The Surface. Completes the level in 1:48, skipping the grenade launcher. To lure the guard out of the GL hut, I need to hit one of the guards inside, or break a window and fire a shot through it. Because I would've had to wait too long to line up a shot through the window at a guard, I did the alternate way. Saved a few frames on a couple doors with some "unorthodox" warping. Six boosts throughout the level. As I didn't have the grenade launcher, I shot the locks off. This looks neat, but the rest of the level is kinda boring. I have the very distinct feeling that I forgot something very obvious for this level though. So,,, I will wait a couple days before starting the bunker for some feedback. EDIT: Youtube video for the lazy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh4pTgEiERo . Might need to wait a couple minutes for it to be viewable. EDIT 2: The file desyncs when played from the very start. I have half the level to redo, but in the meantime take a look at the working youtube avi and see if you can spot anything I did wrong before I go make the same mistakes again. Also, if the messed up sky is pissing some of you off, I could use lookdown for most of the stage (but that would piss off other people too). I'll wait until later tonight before redoing stuff.
Posted: 3/30/2007 2:42 AM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I dunno, that sky was incredibly dreadful to look at, even worse than runway. I think my eyes were internally bleeding from such bad graphics. Look down is way less painful to watch, I'd recommend to use it.
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Posted: 3/30/2007 2:55 AM
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laughing_gas
Former player
Joined: 10/1/2006
Posts: 1102
Location: boot_camp
I would prefer lookdown even if the sky wasn't painful to watch.
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Posted: 3/30/2007 2:57 AM
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mmbossman
Experienced player (828)
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
GBx TAS of 2008
Awww, I kinda liked the view... made it seem like 007 had just done a few hits of acid.
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Posted: 3/30/2007 5:59 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Looks good. I would try for 3 boosts during the long stretch this is pretty common. You didn't shoot the locks from above like I mentioned earlier, did you try this? Seems like it should save a little time, you might be able to completely destroy one lock early like this.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/30/2007 11:58 AM
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Wouter_Jansen
Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands
Using more lookdown should lower your time and also I'm sure you could open door in sat tower earlier, you were looking to the side and were like right in it almost when you could open it.
Posted: 3/30/2007 12:55 PM
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Mitjitsu
He/Him
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Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997
TAS of 2007 N64 TAS of 2007
I would be happy with seeing lookdown being used, although is it really worth skipping the GR, as I'm sure strafe boosting would make up for the time as well as unlocking the vent before you climb the ladder.
Posted: 3/31/2007 7:07 AM
(Edited: 3/31/2007 10:15 AM)
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Strafe boosting would be pointless as you can get more boosts from guards and they're just as good and don't make smoke. The GL is 2-3 second delay; the locks take less than this so it saves a little time. Look-down would look better, but I don't think it helps on mupen as it isn't an exact copy of a N64 and doesn’t account for sprite overload which is what lags a real N64 when playing GE. In short, mupen doesn’t lag on GE. I think what people are most disappointed about this level is it didn’t get every boost it could, one was sideways, and you didn’t try for a grenade which would save full second. No one can see why you couldn’t get a grenade.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/31/2007 7:10 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
Still no one has confirmed that you need the large key for the safe hut. This could save 15 seconds, but I guess no one thinks it worth 30 seconds of their time. *EDIT* so I got mupen and and a GE rom working, played through to surface on agent which was very hard with a keyboard. I can confirm that you need both the Large key and the safe key to open the door to the safe hut and open the safe. So you'd need to do two door tricks which is out of the question.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/31/2007 8:23 AM
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Rising_Tempest
Player (168)
Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada
Rising Tempest wrote:
I'd already though of getting guards to open locked doors on this level a la Aztec, but the problem is that there's two of them that need the same key to be opened (Large Key).
Already taken care of but thanks anyway. I will be up all night with nothing to do, so I will redo what needs to be done of this level. I will use the shooting of locks from further away- it won't save much time but I had a pretty low decimal 1:48 (judging by the frame counter anyway). This and squeezing out another boost or two will probably lower the mission time to 1:47. I also noticed the "fog of war" takes up a certain height of the level's atmosphere, I will try not to look above this except when necessary. This should make a nice compromise for the "messy sky/I hate lookdown" arguement. Also, someone mentioned if I used lookdown the whole level, it would be faster (Wouter I believe?). Anyway time to clear up the myth once and for all- lookdown does not save time on this game. While it does reduce lag, in this game lag is only FPS related- meaning the animation slows down, but not the gameplay. While lookdown is certainly a good idea for console speedrunning- less FPS lag is more tight control- in a TAS it isn't as important as I don't have to worry about human imperfections like reflexes. Of course, extreme cases of lag will be avoided wherever possible, so the movie doesn't become irritating to watch.
Posted: 3/31/2007 8:48 AM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
It saves time on a console because those can't handle nearly as many sprites as mupen can. Mupen doesn’t lag on GE from sprite overload; a console does. It's not about smoothness, but actually speeding up how fast you can complete the mission.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 3/31/2007 11:27 AM
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Wouter_Jansen
Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands
..and you ignored my comment about opening the door earlier
Posted: 3/31/2007 8:31 PM
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Wyster
Active player (301)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
Okay so Bunker next, not really much to say about it, your last TAS was very good. 1:02 should be doable though: Try to have full speed when leaving the mainframe, i'm not so sure if you had that on the last TAS? Shooting Boris in the back before he arrives at mainframe(Perhaps you already saw this in the the-elite forums topic?). Also if you could do warps like those awesome ones you had on Facility on the last door that would be great too. Other than that i can't really think of any more things that'll actually save time.
Posted: 3/31/2007 9:09 PM
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Spider-Waffle
Banned User
Joined: 5/11/2004
Posts: 1049
With the Boris running strategy he can run all the way to the main frames. I think you could open the two doors for the running Boris too. You would just have to use the camera while he’s at the mainframe. I think you might be able to warp the first door, not a big warp, but just a little. The agent way of getting into the hallways might be a little faster, plus a boost. Then of course you could have the first door already open for you by using 2.3. This would save over a second.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Posted: 4/8/2007 9:07 PM
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Wyster
Active player (301)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
So what's up with this? Progress stuck again?
Posted: 4/14/2007 10:14 PM
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Rising_Tempest
Player (168)
Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada
I fixed the Surface. Sorry I did not do this earlier, I just hate doing shit over. I've already started some work on Bunker, but feel free to add any ideas for the level I may not have had. I'm already going to try to have Boris run into the mainframe room, and the recently discovered Boris-Shot (saves about half a second in making him start the computer decrypting earlier).
Posted: 4/15/2007 12:36 AM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
As per request, fresh crispy AVI goodness! Runway Surface
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Posted: 4/15/2007 6:30 AM
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Pweisger
Joined: 11/11/2005
Posts: 43
And we thank you for it. Looks good!
Posted: 4/15/2007 6:28 PM
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Wyster
Active player (301)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
I'm not sure about this, but for the beginning of Bunker 1, isn't the Agent route faster? I'm not sure exactly why that route isn't used normally on 00A, possibly becouse it's not that much faster and the alarm will go off unless you don't kill the guard(which ain't a problem for a TAS of course). It's definately worth trying even if it'll only save a few tenths.
Posted: 4/15/2007 6:42 PM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
wait, on surface 1 did you remember to switch weapons to zip up the ladder at the end? I remember that being done in the 1.50, but not done this time around. is there a reason for this? Will try to encode facility as well, because the 52 encode can be done better. Dam already has a crisp avi since it wasn't redone, so no need to do that.
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Posted: 4/15/2007 11:21 PM
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Rising_Tempest
Player (168)
Joined: 4/27/2006
Posts: 304
Location: Eastern Canada
CF: The weapon switch wasn't done because it isn't needed to zip up the ladder. While it does save a few frames to do so, I'd lose much more from having to wait for the weapon switch to finish to fire the sniper rifle at the locks. Also, avis of each level of the current run plus the silo from the old can be found at http://youtube.com/profile?user=R151NGT3MP357, so there's no real need to encode them unless you can improve the quality or something. Do note that each of these videos show the mission result screen for a few seconds so the viewer can see the final time, headshot score etc. I do want each level available on youtube in this format for a casual viewer to watch, in addition to the full run on this site when it is finished. Also, if the Agent route is faster (for Bunker), I will definately use it- having infinite guards to bother me would make the level more frantic & interesting to watch. Maybe more boosts in the final run to the exit too.
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