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Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
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Alright, the WIP now completes Ceres, which is by far (IMO) the most random and fantastically inconvenient place to do… well, anything possible. I had to sacrifice a lot of frames (and also a nicer escape time) to deal with randomness, but the end result was really worth it, since I couldn't copypaste Saturn's two frames faster escape due to randomness. On the question of improvability: overall, if there is a possibility to manipulate all the room states to be ideal without any slowdowns (I find it very improbable, and the worst thing is that you can't know it until you do the run with full optimization), then it is possible to save 15—20 more frames during the segment; if there isn't, then it's only 5—10 frames or so. Having an escape time of 00:20.xx is definitely impossible in any case. Total improvement is: 21 frames against Saturn's WIP; 105 frames against Drew's run. The progress will be faster now, that's for sure. :D
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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WIP #3: Morphing Ball (00:01:30 @ ingame time). Total improvement: 28 frames against Saturn's WIP (may have to redo the last room, though); 2.5 seconds against Drew's run. Enjoy.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
Just so you know. Incredibly excited about this TAS as well.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Joined: 5/13/2006
Posts: 283
Wow, nice work moozooh, can't wait to see more progress. :) And if I ever actually do a TAS (don't hold your breath...) I have been thinking of Drew's suggestion that I do a low% run of this... It would be really interesting considering I normally do (near-) 100% runs (which would be a killer for this game as far as route planning...).
<Zurreco> if so called professional players cant adapt to every playing field, theyre obviously not that great
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Yeah, great job so far, moozooh! 28 Frames improvement is alot already. I'm looking very much forward to see how you will handle the more complicated rooms with the first enemies and manage the refills and luck manipulation. Keep it up!
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
How is the run going?=)
Post subject: I need some input on this one.
Senior Moderator
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Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Slow but confidently. :) Another WIP to be released soon (don't expect anything extraordinary there, though; I'm in the middle of a rather difficult refill sequence at the moment). There's a serious speed/entertainment question that I wanted to ask. Due to the specifics of Samus's movement, it is sometimes advisable to make a horizontal beam shot instead of doing an arm pump (you'd understand why if you were more informed on the micromanagement in this game). Most of the time, it would save me less than a single frame. In any case, the difference in speed is hardly noticeable but it still helps in certain situations. However, it may have a negative impact on the entertainment (periodically shooting the air in a TAS is hardly understandable unless it is done for luck manipulation means). Thus, the options are: 1) use it every time I need to, which could save me 50—100 frames in the end; 2) use it only in absolute necessity. So, what does everyone think of it?
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Post subject: Re: I need some input on this one.
creaothceann
He/Him
Editor
Joined: 4/7/2005
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moozooh wrote:
it is sometimes advisable [...] difference in speed is hardly noticeable but it still helps in certain situations
This seems OK to me. As long as it doesn't get repetitive and yawn-inducing... (Arm-pumping is repetitive as well, but hardly noticeable after a while.)
Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
I don't mind random shots if it's explained. Is detecting those situations time-consuming? in other words, would using this trick require an unreasonable amount of testing/rerecords/general work? Could it delay the run by an unreasonable amount of time? If it doesn't, go for it. If it does, screw those 100 frames and blame entertainment ;)
m00
Joined: 2/12/2006
Posts: 432
What tub said.
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
moozooh wrote:
There's a serious speed/entertainment question that I wanted to ask. Due to the specifics of Samus's movement, it is sometimes advisable to make a horizontal beam shot instead of doing an arm pump (you'd understand why if you were more informed on the micromanagement in this game). Most of the time, it would save me less than a single frame. In any case, the difference in speed is hardly noticeable but it still helps in certain situations. However, it may have a negative impact on the entertainment (periodically shooting the air in a TAS is hardly understandable unless it is done for luck manipulation means). Thus, the options are: 1) use it every time I need to, which could save me 50—100 frames in the end; 2) use it only in absolute necessity. So, what does everyone think of it?
Very strange. I never noticed a beam shot could be of use anywhere. Care to explain what exactly and where it is useful? And if this will even save just 100 frames after 1,5 realtime hours, I wouldn't recommend to use it. Shooting the air just looks stupid and gets repetitive after a short while. Only exception is, if this 100 frames would allow you to get a whole minute better time on the display. I hardly doubt it will make a difference though (unless you are extremely unlucky). Other than that, I'm very much looking forward for the next WIP! :-)
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
Saturn wrote:
Only exception is, if this 100 frames would allow you to get a whole minute better time on the display.
so your suggestion is to do the run without the trick, then check the timer, then redo the run if needed? ;)
m00
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
thats called effort i guess :)!!!!!!! ... have fun :D
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Ok, I'll explain everything in detail. I'll start with indepth running mechanics. Samus's normal ("walking") speed is 2.75 fr/px. Pressing dash makes Samus accelerate at a linear rate of 0.0625 px/fr^2 (= her speed increases by 1/16 pixels per frame every frame), stopping at 2 px/fr (I'll call this "part" of her speed her velocity). That means her full speed without any additional factors is 4.75 px/fr. To achieve it from standing still, you need to press forward+dash for 33 frames, travelling a distance of ~105 pixels (less than 7 full tiles). Situation begins to look really weird when Samus starts moving her arm cannon. Every time its direction changes, her position shifts forward by one pixel. For instance, if you press L on frame n and release on n+1, Samus's arm will normally change its direction on frame n+2 due to the input lag of one frame and the animation lag of one more frame:
n   | you press L (aim down)
n+1 | +1 px boost
n+2 | +1 px boost, Samus lowers her arm
n+3 | her arm returns to initial position
Alternating the arm direction, Samus reaches her maximum pre-booster speed of 5.75 px/fr (still not Sonic the Hedgehog, but still nice). Shooting Samus's cannon has the same effect as aiming up or down, with one notable exception: it doesn't return to the initial position until you change it to something different. Therefore, you have only one pixel of boost when you release the button. And sometimes, it is preferrable to have only one pixel of additional boost. Now, a bit more explanation (or "Why do I have to shoot the cannon"). The above math fails miserably every time Samus runs up or down the slope, since one very important factor kicks in: the incline angle. I don't know exactly how to calculate everything since I can't measure the angles without using SMILE (actually, I wouldn't bother doing that anyway), but I know for sure that: - running either uphill or downhill, Samus moves slower (technically, she isn't really moving slower, but rather is travelling more distance); - depending on the incline angle and your horizontal speed, you have a certain chance of experiencing a collision error. This is the biggest problem in TASing this game. If the error occurs while Samus is running uphill, she'll get into the ground, then immediately ejected, and as a result come to a full stop. This is a very rare thing, though. When the error happens while Samus is running downhill, she loses her grip with the ground which sends her flying at the speed equal to her velocity (maximum of 2 px/fr without speedbooster) combined with her momentum (usually 2 px/fr; it builds up to that speed after 11 frames of pressing forward from standing still). It doesn't happen if Samus isn't exceeding certain speed limits, which is why you never see it in conventional play, unless you're both changing the arm's direction on the slope and you're unlucky enough. Due to Drewseph's [rather cruel] level design, the game is full of considerably steep slopes right from the beginning, so in the TAS it happens all the fucking time, which was why I had to move the running precision to subpixel level to avoid unwanted collision errors without losing much time. However, since I don't know the indepth calculations well enough, I can't predict when and how will I lose the grip the next time, so it's all a matter of trial and error. You can run down a certain slope fine, but fall off of it if your initial position has an offset of 1/64 px. Yeah, that bad. That's also the reason why I'm close to 9k of rerecords even though I have Saturn's WIP as a reference and I haven't even crossed the mark of 2 ingame minutes. That's why the progress is rather slow nowadays: I have to manipulate certain refills without losing more than 1-2 frames compared to Saturn, and it seems that changing the room state by entering it later affects the randomness inside, but I won't know that before I pass through several screens of that room. So I'm doing, like, 500—1000 rerecords every day, but the run don't move forward timewise. :) Also, to answer Tub's question: shooting the air to have a boost doesn't really add to nor detract from the complexity of the run, it's just a method to fine-tune the subpixel position without being slower. I think I'll settle with not doing it unless absolutely necessary, since I myself don't like those "missed" shots too much.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 10/5/2006
Posts: 17
moozooh, you are truly a madman. Even so, I'm cheering you on.
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Tub wrote:
Saturn wrote:
Only exception is, if this 100 frames would allow you to get a whole minute better time on the display.
so your suggestion is to do the run without the trick, then check the timer, then redo the run if needed? ;)
No! :-) It was just a thought. I am to 99,9% sure this with the display won't happen, and so my suggestion is to not use the air shooting unless absolutely necessary, because of the reasons statet above. moozooh: First, the 2 frames input lag in Snes9x is absolutely irrelevant. Obviously just press all the needed buttons 2 frames before actually making the needed move, and you will get everything in time just like if it wouldn't have any lag. Now let me explain how exactly the arm-pumping is working: Everytime you press L, (I will ignore the input lag here) Samus lowers her arm, which boosts her slightly forward (1 pixel according to moozooh). And each time you release L, Samus puts her arm back to normal again, which again boosts her slightly forward. So as you see, you get not 1 but 2 boosts during one pump. Thats also the reason why alternating the pumps like L, R, L, R, L, R etc... won't double the speed of the pumps, because if doing so, you just replace the "release" boost with the R/aim up one. So here is a alternate solution for you: If you require to boost for just 1 pixel (which you planned to do with the cannon shot) and you will be 1 pixel too early or 1 pixel too late if doing the arm pumps instead, just add in a R/aim up pump during your pumps before (like L, release, L, release, L, R, release, L, release etc...). That way you will be 1 pixel ahead (just like of the cannon shot) after you stop the last L/aim down pump. :-)
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Post subject: new wip (now in brand new .avi flavor!)
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
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So as I already told Saturn, I found another, more elegant solution to shooting just as I finished typing that post: I just release L one frame later if there's a need. Well, as I promised, here's a new WIP which finishes the Crateria part and goes up to Brinstar. I was 82 (!) frames ahead of Saturn before the kago refill sequence, but ended up being only 44 frames faster at the elevator, so I'm considering redoing it (I just didn't want you all, especially Saturn and Drewseph, to wait for so long). I'm planning to be at least a full second faster at this point in the improved version. Also, I've already reached Saturn's rerecord count here. :) Also, by a request, here's the WIP in the AVI form: — Ceres segment (5 MB); — Crateria segment (16 MB). Main points of interest for those who care: • frame 4000 — shooting the door without stopping; • frames 6500—6600 — killing the pirate and getting the refill without slowdown (technically, it's as fast as Saturn's version; I just fiddled around with not getting full acceleration and got this. Sadly, it can't be done any faster); • frame 6750 — getting a perfect boost to avoid jumping on a ledge (ended up only 3 frames faster, though); • frame 7500 — a boost Saturn somehow forgot to do (gave me ~20 frames); • frames 9000—9150 — the horrible abomination of the segment: refilling on a kago. >_< Any comments are welcome.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Simply amazing! Thanks for posting it, moozooh. Now I see the main error I did, this stupid brown bug I forgot to damage boost. Actually I never thought doing that would be faster compared to the normal jump, so I didn't bother to test it. Ending up even 20 frames faster, is just crazy! The run looks excellent so far, so hopefully you can manage this Kago thing soon, so you can continue on Brinstar. Great work so far, looking forward for more progress!
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Active player (437)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I agree with what Saturn said. This was the first time I ever saw ReDesign and I must say, it looks pretty good so good job on that Drew. And we all know moozooh's perfomance was good :D
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
JXQ
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 5/6/2005
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moozooh, Nice work. I do not envy you. Stealing Fabian's style, JXQ
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Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 1711
JXQ..., I don't mind... holla..., Fabian...
Zoey Ridin' High <Fabian_> I prett much never drunk
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Thanks, guys. :D JXQ, you should actually be proud of yourself since my motivation to do this run was partly your fault. ;) Anyways, I've redone the kago and regained 8 frames (now 52 frames ahead on the elevator) but I know it's still not good enough so I guess I should try to do it better.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 1/9/2006
Posts: 22
Wonderful WIPs. However, I believe the layout for this game already has me extremely lost, lol. I'll probably wait till you get a bit farther before I even attempt to play it leisurely. >.>
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 615
Location: The Netherlands
you've won 8 frames over how many frames? Winning 8 frames over 200 frames is worth it, doing it over 20.000 frames is just bitching about. no?
qfox.nl
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I meant I won 8 frames over the previous attempt (the one in the recent WIP). >_> It's still not the fastest refill sequence on earth (I lost ~28 frames on it), but it's the best I've managed to do. Anyway, I'm currently in Brinstar on my way to Spore Spawn, again with 80ish frames of advantage over Saturn's WIP, and more than 500 frames ahead of Drewseph's run. Yes, I'm doing another refill sequence right now, and it may occur that I have to redo one of my previous rooms of Brinstar due to bad refill manipulation (I'm at low energy now, so nearly all the drops I get from the refill spawns are energy refills, which I don't need at all).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
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