Joined: 10/31/2005
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Location: The Netherlands
if you liked GE enough then you'd play it muh more or watch more GE videos, and eventually you'll get used to it and it would be weird to see videos without lookdown.. it does not steal any enjoyment, your brain does.
I agree, unless your a GE noob look down shouldn't bother you, in fact seeing looking ahead is painfull to watch cause you know how much slower they're going and much time they're losing.
Basically how much look down you'd use in a TAS would be a function of how much you want to appease noobs and how much you want to get the best time possible.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Joined: 8/1/2004
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
Basically how much look down you'd use in a TAS would be a function of how much you want to appease noobs and how much you want to get the best time possible.
Yes, except this site is about entertainment, not just getting a time. I don't want to rile this debate up again, but it's really arrogant to say "giving up a few frames in order to make the movie more interesting is for noobs." As said earlier, you don't even lose frames in certain places by not looking down.
Joined: 6/13/2006
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Although it would make a funny movie description...
"James Bond, who speeds so fast through missions he doesn't even bother looking foward."
Although yeah I would prefer he look straight, especially since it doesn't lose frames.
Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands
zurreco totally misses the point. the tas won't lose any entertainment from it as long as your brain just views it the way we do.
I could say any of the starred runs or with a moon aren't entertaining, because I don't enjoy something or whatever reason.
using that logic, this site would have no runs at all.
there's PLENTY of action and entertainment in the levels, and if lookdown is used, it's a section that was boring without it in the first place.
besides being faster, lookdown also makes the boring parts smaller.
I agree, unless your a GE noob look down shouldn't bother you
This is pretty asinine - saying what should and shouldn't bother others, and calling them noobs if they don't see things the same way you do.
Wouter wrote:
zurreco totally misses the point. the tas won't lose any entertainment from it as long as your brain just views it the way we do.
I could say any of the starred runs or with a moon aren't entertaining, because I don't enjoy something or whatever reason.
Come on. You say the TAS won't lose entertainment, then go on to say that any run could potentially be unentertaining if something isn't liked. And yes, any run can potentially be un-entertaining to individuals. Great point saying that since you don't think it loses entertainment, Zurreco misses the point. He has a different opinion than you do. It could be said that you are missing the point with equal validity.
and if lookdown is used, it's a section that was boring without it in the first place.besides being faster, lookdown also makes the boring parts smaller.
I thought lookdown was to reduce lag minimally, meaning that what you're missing probably has more action going on than the FLOOR. Additionally, go watch 20 seconds of action, and then 19.5 seconds of floor, and see which one feels longer.
Edit: Clarity
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 8/1/2004
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Location: Seattle, WA
Wouter Jansen wrote:
zurreco totally misses the point. the tas won't lose any entertainment from it as long as your brain just views it the way we do.
I actually think you're missing the point here. This whole debate came up with backwalking in OoT: it saves time, but many many people find it boring. It's not that people need to see where you're going because they don't know what is going on, it's just that some people would rather watch 2 minutes of stuff happening, rather than 1:59.30 of floors flying by their faces.
From a time perspective, ground look all you want.
From an entertainment perspective, I personally would rather see something happening all the time, rather than loads of ground textures flying by.
Joined: 8/26/2006
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Personally, I'm stunned that there isn't an active and specific thread purely for arguing time vs. entertainment. It seems to be argued with the same vivacity as many of the more extreme persuasion would debate abortion or capital punishment.
Someone should really start one...
Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
Location: The Netherlands
so funny, I bet you don't even know the game or played it.
lookdown is used in places such as long stretches in which nothing is done but pure strafing. if you like strafing, start up a game of GE, select the first surface level, and strafe your longs out. there's no need for a TAS to show strafing skills. the entertainment is mostly gotten through the extreme precise shots that are made, which you can't do while looking down, thus lookdown can't lessen it's entertainment. I don't think you could headshot a guard in lookdown even if he'd duck. and in a special case of eg a roll, lookdown is a must to hit the head, but guards probably don't get the chance to roll anyway.
if you use the floors as a reason for it being boring, the same could be said for looking straight ahead. after playing the game lots, you see the same texture every time, and the same applies.
why can't anyone interpret posts the way they're meant and twist words everywhere?
the explanation to why zurreco missed the point was that the lookdown only lessens the boring parts, yet he calls it boring. that's quite redundant, to call something boring when it was boring to begin with, whichever method you use to strafe a long stretch etc, it's still boring. as if taking the fastest paths which happen to be that you have to walk next to a wall all the time and you see the wall the whole time wouldn't be boring.
what matters is that the things that need to be done aren't done in lookdown unless it's required. the action such as killing guards (headshots..), doing the objectives.
obviously with "I could say any of the starred runs or with a moon aren't entertaining, because I don't enjoy something or whatever reason." I was pointing that very thing out that it's a matter of opinion. if he doesn't like the lookdown doesn't mean it can't be entertaining. the author of the run shouldn't feel required to avoid lookdown just because he feels it takes away from the entertainment, because there's plenty of people that would like it. I clearly meant that you can't use opinion as a reason for not using a faster trick, but I guess cristal water isn't clear enough.
finally, I don't think anything here or anywhere is time only.. especially when I see so many obsoleted runs here, and read many times how time was saved by 'simply being more precise' clearly shows that far from many runs on here purely aim for time.. some don't really aim for time at all.
Joined: 8/1/2004
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Wouter Jansen wrote:
so funny, I bet you don't even know the game or played it.
the explanation to why zurreco missed the point was that the lookdown only lessens the boring parts, yet he calls it boring. that's quite redundant, to call something boring when it was boring to begin with, whichever method you use to strafe a long stretch etc, it's still boring.
For starters, assuming only makes you look like a huge cunt.
I don't understand your logic of 'I will make things less boring by staring at the ground.' It will be boring either way. The only difference is that, rather than staring at bland textures on the ground, you can see a slightly more entertaining image. Example: while the Runway isn't the most beautiful landscape in the game, it's still better looking than the surface of it. I would rather see the somewhat detailed level makeup than I would watching asphalt and snow go by. To me (and this is my opinion here), ground looking is more boring than losing a few frames to lag.
I am fully willing to accept that whoever runs this is willin to put speed ahead of time by groundlooking, but I think it is really disrespectful to just shrug off peoples' beliefs that staring at the ground is more boring than anything else. On top of being dismissive, you go to the extent of calling them noobs or saying that they've probably never played the game. NEWSFLASH: Just because someone isn't gungho about the completion time does not mean that they don't know anything about the game.
Wouter, the difference is that we are telling you why lookdown will make it boring for us to watch, whereas you are telling us why it shouldn't be boring for us to watch (instead of why it's entertaining for you to watch).
And of course you don't have to change how you run the game, since you're the author. It's just discussion, the point of a forum. You'd get people bitching at you if you didn't use lookdown, either.
It sucks that the N64 games are programmed so shitty compared to the systems before them because it opens up strange ways like this to gain minimal time, which I think will make the majority of N64 runs boring to watch.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 10/31/2005
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"For starters, assuming only makes you look like a huge cunt. "
I wish..
"I don't understand your logic of 'I will make things less boring by staring at the ground.'"
if they are equally boring, lookdown will make it less boring because it lessens the duration.
"To me (and this is my opinion here), ground looking is more boring than losing a few frames to lag."
I thought I had made it clear by now that opinions shouldn't matter in a case such as where they swing both ways.
"I think it is really disrespectful to just shrug off peoples' beliefs that staring at the ground is more boring than anything else."
it's disrespectful to the speedrunners in the same way then, which actually don't mind it at all and prefer it.
"On top of being dismissive, you go to the extent of calling them noobs or saying that they've probably never played the game. NEWSFLASH: Just because someone isn't gungho about the completion time does not mean that they don't know anything about the game."
I didn't call anyone a noob. besides, noob is just a word that means that they lack knowledge on the game, which is obviously the case in many situations. it can also be used as name calling people that are annoying and such, but it's not a necessity.
Also, I didn't say you don't know anything the game, I only implied you don't. And sure enough, you obviously 'know' the game to a certain extend. But if you really knew the game, you would have understood my reason why lookdown is only used in boring places anyway. if there's action, the action is not performed whilst lookdown is (in most cases anyway). also to clarify, 'you' refers to JXQ.
Joined: 10/31/2005
Posts: 329
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JXQ:
I actually used to hate lookdown too, but now it's not possible to think of a world without it, so to say.
I and many others have grown to get used to it, to such an extend that we will always take advantage of it no matter what. and I guess it's correct when you say it's about time, since as true speedrunners we have that in our mind. but when we use it in our runs, it truly DOES matter, upto full seconds. 1 full second means a lot to us. some of us are prepared to play well over 100 hours just to cut 1 second of a record to max it out that little bit more.
That's my reason why I prefer lookdown, if I don't see lookdown in the levels where it matters (it's not all that bad..), I will automatically get a sense of 'this is damn slow' and speed is what entertains me (besides accuracy of course, and what not else).
Hope I'm clear
Yeah I feel ya. Kind of a bummer though cuz this was one of the few N64 games I really enjoyed, though I never got into speedrunning it (except getting the cheat codes).
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I did some testing of this issue and came up with the following. I don't know if it proves anything but it is interesting to check out. It was done in Perfect Dark, a game where lookdown can supposedly be used to save time. The game shows the mission time which is the most important part. I picked Crash Site because of the range in fps that can occur.
Crash Site, jabo plugin (50 frame advances for each category, all fps are approximates, mission time is from last VI; looking down allowed for the counter to be updated more often)
Looking forward, still: 18 fps 0.8s misson time
Looking straight down, still: 50 fps 0.83s mission time
Moving, looking forward: 0.81s mission time
Moving, looking down: 0.84s mission time
Now it may seem that looking down actually takes longer mission time wise while moving per frame but you have to take into effect how far the player moves during that time and the ratio of the counter updating.
The still test is the one that can actually prove lookdown (in PD) does nothing and the "it's faster with lookdown" idea is just based off of how many frames are actually showing up.. meaning it just looks faster. Everything could change when actually moving, who knows.
L4yer, I don't think lookdown is supposed to save anything in Perfect Dark. You could test the same thing in goldeneye.
It's possible that lookdown in Goldeneye only saves time for normal speedrunners because it gives better control because there's less lag.
anyway even if it would save time, most people on this site are not goldeneye experts, so if lookdown was used they would find it really boring and strange.
Joined: 10/31/2005
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well it could be true that emulators can handle the game better and thus have less lag and don't need lookdown as much if at all. but I'm pretty sure it would help, 100% sure for true n64.
L4yer, I don't think lookdown is supposed to save anything in Perfect Dark. You could test the same thing in goldeneye.
It's possible that lookdown in Goldeneye only saves time for normal speedrunners because it gives better control because there's less lag.
anyway even if it would save time, most people on this site are not goldeneye experts, so if lookdown was used they would find it really boring and strange.
GE doesn't have the timer which which makes the test a little impossible unless there is a hack to show it
