Posted: 6/28/2010 4:33 AM
Post subject: Help with Luck Manipulation!
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Ryanzorz
Joined: 6/28/2010
Posts: 8
Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been playing around with luck manipulation in FF5Advance (not necessarily for a TAS yet but an LLGNBNGNRBNIK and I've been considering using luck manipulation to beat a particularly difficult boss (Guardians) without using Instant KO, as that is one of the conditions I've set. I've read all the tutorials on the mainsite and I'm still at a bit of a loss in terms of operation. I've used the memory viewer as well, to little avail...
Posted: 6/28/2010 4:55 AM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
It would be helpful if you could better explain what you intend to analyze or alter. Luck manipulation is a really broad scope. If you want to find the RNG, you want to first understand what actions change the RNG and then try to use memory watch to extract the address. I suppose the Memory Watch page could use a section on how certain common RNGs work. If you are trying to see what the boss will be doing or if attacks will connect based on the RNG, you will need to disassemble the game via a debugger. Using a debugger to read 6502 code is beyond the ability of 90%+ of the users at this site. I can detail more if you ask more specific questions.
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Posted: 6/28/2010 5:03 AM
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Ryanzorz
Joined: 6/28/2010
Posts: 8
Im looking to locate the address of the RNG (mostly to see how and when it changes) but I'm having trouble locating it. I have sort of managed to figure it out by messing around with button presses (I managed to predict/control the actions of Liquid Flame).
Posted: 6/28/2010 5:06 AM
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Ryanzorz
Joined: 6/28/2010
Posts: 8
Sorry for the double post, the edit button and I had an argument and it won. I forgot to elaborate, heh. I'm looking to locate the address of the RNG so that I can see if it changes/what value it changes to when I get a crit/block or evade an attack.
Posted: 6/28/2010 5:10 AM
(Edited: 6/28/2010 5:13 AM)
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
To find the RNG one must either disassemble the game (hard), or gain some understanding of at what point the RNG changes (easier). Once you understand WHEN the RNG changes you can apply 'Equal' and 'Not Equal' to get a short list of addresses that may be the RNG. (Using disassembly, one would only need to know what sort of action would cause the relevant address to be accessed. Many things like damage calculation can only be found through the game code, and these formulas directly address the RNG.) See this page if you haven't already: http://tasvideos.org/MemorySearch.html It should answer most of your questions. Also, please don't create new threads for games that have existing threads. Either post in the Newbie forum or post in the relevant game thread. Also again, if you aren't aware, everything you do here is reported to the IRC channel. =p
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Posted: 6/28/2010 5:11 AM
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Ryanzorz
Joined: 6/28/2010
Posts: 8
Sorry. Wasn't aware of how the forum worked in that regard. Also, Thanks a ton for the help!
Posted: 6/28/2010 9:05 AM
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neo_omegon
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
In my experience on SNES version, RNG does NOT initialized after each battle so the last battle is very important. I don’t know it’s available for GBA version, but I hope it would be helpful.
Posted: 6/29/2010 1:03 AM
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Ryanzorz
Joined: 6/28/2010
Posts: 8
From what I've gathered so far while fighting Liquid Flame using save states, RNG is based on button presses. I guess I can try random combinations until I find a Miss.
Posted: 6/29/2010 3:16 AM
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Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4045
If you know where in RAM your HP is stored, you could make a bot in LUA to methodologically try every combination of button presses until it notices that the HP stayed the same after (how ever many frames it takes for an attack to proceed)
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Posted: 6/30/2010 2:37 AM
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Ryanzorz
Joined: 6/28/2010
Posts: 8
I've been working on learning Lua script so I'll see if I can give that a shot. Also, I'm not quite sure how HP is relevant to RNG ... Think you could elaborate on that?
Posted: 6/30/2010 4:05 AM
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samurai_goroh
Editor, Player (54)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
I wouldn't say it affect it, but some enemies (or bosses) will change their attack pattern when low in HP... You can check the Algorithm FAQ on gamefaqs... For what I found (in the SNES version), pressing random buttons before a battle trigger, will make the enemy attack in a different pattern (even their speed will change). Also depending on which action you perform (or when), it might change the enemy's attack. So you could try that. (even trying to run away might affect the outcome)
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Posted: 6/30/2010 11:10 AM
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neo_omegon
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Ryanzorz: What does NBNGNRBNIK mean?
Posted: 6/30/2010 2:25 PM
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Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4045
Ryanzorz wrote:
I've been working on learning Lua script so I'll see if I can give that a shot. Also, I'm not quite sure how HP is relevant to RNG ... Think you could elaborate on that?
I mean to say that monitoring HP would be how the LUA bot knew that the attack missed. If your hp stays the same, keep the input it used to manipulate the miss, otherwise try the next combination.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 6/30/2010 3:33 PM
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samurai_goroh
Editor, Player (54)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
neo_omegon wrote:
Ryanzorz: What does NBNGNRBNIK mean?
I don't know what those characters mean, but I think is about the challenge on the GameFAQs Challenges FAQ by Mog07:
Rules: lowest exp (2/2/2/3), ABP=0, treasure collection=0%, Blue magic all, breaking Rods is not allowed, taking chests not allowed.
BTW, I also happen to have some addresses for the GBA version, you can check them here: http://www.erick.guillen.com.mx/Codes/GBA%20Final%20Fantasy%20V%20Advance.txt
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Posted: 7/9/2010 8:07 AM
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Ryanzorz
Joined: 6/28/2010
Posts: 8
Sorry for just typing the acronym. :P I typed the whole thing and then thought to myself, "Agh, noone cares anyways!. I'm doing No Gil Toss, No Capture (excluding the bridge because I need to), No Gil Toss, No Instant Kill, No Rod Breaking.
Posted: 7/27/2010 3:35 PM
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neo_omegon
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
So, you can basically use any ability except for Gil Toss, can’t you? I have ever seen a video in which the author won against Guardian on LLG on youtube. I wouldn’t tell you the video in case it deprives you of enjoyment of thinking about the strategy. I’m sure you can complete the game. Good luck!