Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
I was able to manipulate another 5 rupees from the bats while on the cart, now I have the 10 I need. I give you full credit for giving me that idea.
So far I manipulated 5 different enemy set ups at the part with the key, and all of them the bats got in the way at certain point. If it turns out there are none that I can find where they don't get in the way I may have to choose the one that loses the least time.
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Oh yeah, do you have a savestate where you could get to the whirlpools on Ages, so I could test it? Or have you figured out how to do the glitch already?
Since we finally know how to manipulate enemies, I've been wanting to try one of these games, so I started Ages. I'm the 3rd person posting an Ages run now :)
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/2687/OoATAS.vbm
This WIP makes it to the gate to level 1. It's about 880 frames faster then Chefs run. Most of the time saved is from the hole glitch, but I did save 110 frames before reaching the room with all the holes.
My biggest concern right now is where to get all the rupees you need for the minigames and stuff.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
http://files.filefront.com/Game_Boyrar/;6171687;;/fileinfo.html
Here's a rar file with 9 save states, from the beginning of every dungeon + inside the black tower, and also my testrun. Vespa may have some use for it.
As Vespa's working with Ages now, and know the pit glitch, you may not have to try it for me (No, I haven't learned me the glitch yet, hehe, what a noob I am:D.). What I wanted to be tested is:
1. Can you walk to the next screen? Like in dungeon 3...
2. Whirlpools, is it able to swim or take the raft past them? What happens if you enter the ship without having the scale?
3. Can you jump out on the holes and start walking?
And for Vespa: Always try to manipulate enemies to drop rupees, as long as you isn't losing time by taking them. Rupees from bushes, rocks and "dig places". Also, when you shall meet Maple, try to make her drop as many rupees as possible (And the potion too, of course.)
Will come back with some more stuff tomorrow I presume.
Good luck you too! I'm glad that I can help=).
1. Can you walk to the next screen? Like in dungeon 3...
2. Whirlpools, is it able to swim or take the raft past them? What happens if you enter the ship without having the scale?
3. Can you jump out on the holes and start walking?
1. It makes sense to be able to, if my understanding of the game engine is correct. Want me to test it?
2. Again, it makes sense to be able to get past these too, since whirlpools are essentially just an underwater pit. About the scale, I don't think it would work, because you actually need to give it to the Captain. I'll test this too.
3. Probably. I'll try it.
Also, Tompa, it took me about 10 minutes to perform the pit trick, and a couple of hours to perfect the technique. I can now do it every time, and coupled with hex editing, this consistency is made easy. Here, I'll run you through my technique:
1. Start recording a VBM.
2. Align yourself perfectly along the seam of the floor grid, on solid ground.
3. Using frame advance, inch your way into the pit. As soon as a frame starts sliding Link sideways into the pit, stop recording the movie.
4. Load the movie in a hex editor. I use this one: http://www.zshare.net/download/tasedit-rar.html (thread with info: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3829&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
5. Edit the last frame of the VBM so that the input is toward the pit and ALSO in the opposite direction of the way you were sliding when you stopped recording the movie.
6. Duplicate this last frame four times, then make more frames after these that alternate between directions so that the input zig-zags. Make as many of these zig-zag frames as you need.
7. Save the VBM and test it in VBA.
Seriously, hex editing makes this MUCH less of a hassle than doing it in VBA itself with input.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I have done the same thing with Seasons, http://files.filefront.com/OoSrar/;6173308;;/fileinfo.html
Ego_Buff's run and save states of the dungeons. + Segment 10, a place where someone of you can try to lift things in the air, that would be awesome!
Nice one alert! Then you can skip that stupid book, muaha, library part owned.
Is there anything that you guys want me to do? Like make routes, test specific things etc.
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Vespa tested it, and it turns out you can't glitch past the whirlpools when swimming or on the raft. As far as jumping, you can't jump when you're already on the holes, however you could jump on the holes and glitch past.
Where exactly is the room where the holes goes over to the next screen?
As far as the route for Seasons, any timesaver you could think of will help. Pegusus seed management, and bomb route are a couple of things that concern me.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
This room http://files.filefront.com/Oracle_of_Ages9sgm/;6176112;;/fileinfo.html
If you could pass there you could skip a key and take a shortcut to the miniboss etc.
Great about the whirlpools! Hehe. You can easily go to dungeon 8 this way. And some other small stuff...
The bombs, yeah. I'm not remember me having any problems with that during my run, hmm. Will look over this. I will anyway give you some routes for the dungeons. I think you can find the small time savers in dungeon 2. But when it comes to the third one it will be tricky. I don't think my route was the fastest one. Going to post more about this tomorrow.
Here are some maps of the overworld and dungeon for both OoS and OoA
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/GB-GBC/index.htm#L
Oh, and about the pegasus seeds. One seed last for around 460 frames. So you shall try to use them anywhere where you walk for more than 460 frames. When you are on your way to the "watercity" (Can't remember the name...) with Ricky you can manipulate the bushes to drup seeds for you so you fill them up. There are some places in the dungeons where you can get these from as well. Want me to check them up?
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
I justed tested it and there's no way to get to the next screen on the holes. Link just hovers indefinately.
Also I think you misread my last post, but I said that you can't (cannot) glitch past the whirlpools.
Take your time researching Seasons. It'll be a while before I get to the 3rd dungeon.
Heh, apparently my knowledge of the game engine is not what I thought. I tested these last night and like dezbeast said, they are not possible. Here are my test videos for a reference:
Jumping: http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/Zelda-OoA_WalkOverPits-Jumping.vbm
Hovering between screens: http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/Zelda-OoA_WalkOverPits-ScreenToScreen.vbm
Swimming over whirlpools: http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/Zelda-OoA_SwimOverWhirlpools.vbm
I did not test the early pirate ship, because I had no way of getting into the ship. I'm going to use GS cheats to access it tonight and test it, even though it is pointless in terms of a run, because I want some clues so that I can figure out more of how the game works.
About the hovering between screens, I think I understand how it works (or why it doesn't work, if you prefer). Consider the following image that I drew up:
http://www.speedrunguild.com/stuff/Zelda-OoA_PitWalkingAnalysis.gif
The reason for the odd zigzag with the actual movement is because every second frame, Link does not move in the direction he should be because the pit is pulling him back from it. The reason you cannot change screens while pit walking is because you need to be pushing against a screen edge for two uninterrupted frames. So basically, you can press against the screen edge for one frame, wait as many frames as you like and then push again one more frame and Link will move on to the next screen, as long as nothing happens in the dead frames. Link can't move on to the next screen while pit walking because the pits pulling him away every second frame interrupts the requirement for moving to the next screen. Of course, though, without any way to move forward, Link will simply keep hovering on the spot until you decide to stop the pit walking process.
Tompa wrote:
Oh, snap. This reference is invaluable. I thank you with many internets.
I have a question concerning the Carpenters bit of Ages. I noticed that the landscape with Ricky is composed mainly of bushes and single rows of pits that Ricky can jump across. Is it possible to skip using Ricky at all for this section by pit walking? If so, it may be faster than the Moosh landscape. [EDIT: Uh, scratch that. I just noticed that you have to leap up cliffs, which can't be done without Ricky. Still, it's an idea.]
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
OK, thanks for trying it off guys. And sorry for misreading your post dezbeats=).
There was still one thing I wanted to be tested: If you can lift rocks while hovering :D. I guess you can't, right?
I have begun to write down routes for the dungeons in a text document. Will hopefully finish it today. I'm researching with dungeon 5 at the moment. After I'm done with the routes for Seasons, I will go to Ages and do the same. Is it something els that you want me to do, e_alert?
And by the way e_alert. Which animal will you get with the linked password you were using? I belive it is faster to use Dimitri than the other two. Not? And you shall also use the password for the lvl 2 sword. The bombchus may also be useful... Not sure yet.
There was still one thing I wanted to be tested: If you can lift rocks while hovering :D. I guess you can't, right?
Not possible. You can grab onto the rocks, but there is not enough time to actually pick them up before the pit pulls you in. I actually tested this months ago when we were discussing the OoA Segmented, because I wanted to see if you could skip Moosh at the graveyard. Well... you can't. xD
Tompa wrote:
After I'm done with the routes for Seasons, I will go to Ages and do the same. Is it something els that you want me to do, e_alert?
That would actually be quite welcome. I was going to research routes myself, but two minds are better than one, and we can throw around ideas. Collaborate! :P
Tompa wrote:
And by the way e_alert. Which animal will you get with the linked password you were using? I belive it is faster to use Dimitri than the other two. Not? And you shall also use the password for the lvl 2 sword. The bombchus may also be useful... Not sure yet.
I used Moosh, because I seemed to remember from the SDA OoA thread that someone said Moosh was faster. Actually, if you are not 100% sure Dimitri is faster, could you test it? It's not too late for me to restart...
Something I noted about the passwords was that you actually had to find all the people IN the game, tell them the Seasons passwords, and then tell the passwords they tell you to Farore. I wonder if it's possible to get the passwords ahead of time and not have to visit each person? If so, then I could get the Noble Sword right from the off, as soon as I talk to the Maku Tree after rescuing her in the past, and coupled with the Power Ring Lvl3... One-hit-kills for all. :D But if you can't tell Farore the secrets before actually visiting the people, then I'm going to have to wait until after Jabu-Jabu's Belly before I can get the upgrade, or even after Ancient Tomb if I follow the optimal route.
I don't really see the bombchus being much use, unless you can set more than one at a time. I seem to recall that they walk through objects, but there aren't really many places where that's useful/quicker than just going the conventional way. Still, a 5-character password takes, what, a quarter of a second to input tas-style? :P
The sad thing is that I have to test this password crap myself, because my game has unique passwords. *sigh*
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Yeah, I know you have tried it, and I have as well. But have you tried with the floating glitch?
You can skip Ricky with the pit glitch anyway, that's neat:).
And for passwords, use this password generator http://www.zophar.net/utilities/gbutil.html To get the password you need. You only need to talk to the person who gives you the password to use in Seasons, then you can talk to Farore. And you can get the Noble sword after lvl 4, the woman you need to speak to appears at the ember tree in Lynna city past, and when you have beat dungeon 4 you go back in time and teleport to that tree, so it's perfect actually:).
More things about the passwords: Using the password generator you can chose which rings you want. And it's faster if you only chose the Power Ring lvl 3 instead of all rings. I also belive that you can have use of other rings as well, like the pegasus ring, bomber's ring maybe? and the swimming ring etc. So it wont be a bad idea to use more than one actually. You shall try this!
And no, the bombchus are useless I see now... I was thinking about using them in dungeon 5 to skip a key. But you can't get them before dungeon 5.. *sigh*.
Quijo, I think it was him anyway, calculated it for a non linked game. If you shall buy the flute or win it from the minigame. If you start with Dimitri you wont need to buy the flute, or win it...
The floating glitch? If you mean floating with Moosh, I tested that and you can go a maximum of about 1.5 screens with him before he just drops, no matter how accurately you press A.
Aboutthe password generator, I was already using it. :P It does not matter what rings you put into it because they are in the same spot on the collection screen anyway.
Thanks for clearing that up about the secrats. I didn't know how to use them and freaked.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Floating over pits, the pit glitch! If you float in the air while lifting a block. Is that really impossible? As you could start lift the rock at the graveyard in Ages, you can maybe float when it's two holes and lift it. Load segment 10 http://files.filefront.com/OoSrar/;6173308;;/fileinfo.html. You sure it wont work? Anyway, while talking about Moosh, is it faster to fly instead of walking...?
About the rings, I forgot that you can mark the empty spots too, My bad:).
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
As I thought, it seems to be no way to lift any of the rocks while on the holes. The lift animation lasts for just 1 frame and then the holes starts pulling him in. E_alert's explanation about not being able to cross over into the other screen seems to apply to lifting items also. Even if it is possible to lift them, I doubt there's a way to keep from falling, since even throwing objects causes Link to fall.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Have you looked through my dungeon routes? What did you think?
I'm going to start working with overworld routes now, hehe:D. And after that... Hmm, don't know...
EDIT: I forgot to mention in my dungeon routes for Ages that the Power Ring lvl 1 shall be taken in dungeon 1, forgot to mention dungeon 1 at all actually, haha;D. So I will do it here instead:
In the room with the two buttons and the moving platform. Only take the button that makes the chest appear, and pitglitch after that. When you take the bracelet; S&Q. Take the boss key and go to kill the boss.
Am making the overworld route for Ages, shall be done tomorrow.
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
I haven't looked over your route for Season's yet, but I have know doubt that it's very good, judging by the quality of your run on SDA. I got your route downloaded and I shall take a look after I pass dungeon 2. I guess you took into account everywhere that crossing holes would save time.
I might be done the first dungeon by tomorrow and I'll post a WIP. I had to test several ways to beat the miniboss. I wasn't sure if using a bomb would save time. One bomb equals 2 slashes, however not only do you need to time it so the bomb damages them right after their invincibility is up from a slash, but it takes 20 frames to pick up and throw a bomb. I believe with perfect timing and enemy manipulation, the bomb would be several frames faster, but I tried and couldn't get it as fast as when I just used the sword.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1942
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I don't think I mentioned every place you could pit glitch, thought you could see most yourself :D.
About the miniboss... Could you manipulate them so you hit them both with one bomb? That would save time I presume.
Haha, don't compare too much with my run on SDA, it has some failures. But I've said that if I haven't mentioned about some routes, my run is the one you shall use to find the best way, but don't forgot Ego_Buff's run either.
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Yeah I tried that also. But then I noticed that it still took just as many slashes to defeat them. So I started testing out to see exactly what is required to defeat them, and it turns out that you only have to slash one of them 8 times in order to defeat them both. The reason why I know this is when I tried alternating hitting both of them it took 15 slashes.
