Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Ok, I'm going to calculate how many bombs you need through the game, and where you need them (Not exactly where, but still...).
EDIT: Here's what you HAVE to use and what you have already used so far:
2 in dungeon 1, wall and mini boss.
1 down in the subrosian world, bomb switch.
1 bomb to get the bracelet.
6 to get the key.
1 to get to the ladder.
5 for the miniboss.
4 for the boss.
1 to get a crystal.
The kids in the water town will take ALL your bombs left, 1-10.
1 in dungeon 4 to the room with the first key.
1 bombflower to get the last season (Haha, I just had to... :D)
1 for a wall in dungeon 6.
1 in the subrosian world so the lava will fall.
1 for a wall in dungeon 8.
5 for the boss in Onox castle.
This is a total of 30 bombs + those that the kids will take from you. And there are also a few places where you maybe could save time by use bombs.
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
So it wouldn't do me any good to get over 8 or so more bombs before getting to the water town, since all the ones I have will get stolen anyway? Thank's for the calculation. This will prove useful.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Nopp. Just make sure you got one left after dungeon 3, and then it will be good.
What shall I do next? Haha. Finish the Pegasus Seed route perhaps...
Have you heard something from Vespa yet? Is he working with Ages or not?
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Maybe if I start working with something that will help him later in his run... I can do some more calculations and guides for Ages too. Haven't done it as you are getting further and further into the game so you will have better use for guides for Seasons than he has for Ages at the moment.
And I think I made a bomb "walkthrough" earlier for Ages, hmm, oh well... I'm hoping that he will continue soon! I'm also hoping that more people will responde here and say something about the runs. It looks like there aren't that much interest, even if people would like to see both the runs!
EDIT: Hmm, you said that Vespa was in dungeon 2. When looking at my route for it, and E_alert's version, I think they can both be improved by taking the first key close to the miniboss, and skip the small key in the end with hte many colored blocks. It should be faster really.
New edit: Have finished the pegasus route up to the end of level 7. I'm thinking of "remaking" it a bit, giving you a lot more to manipulate=P. As I'm thinking quite a lot of time could be saved my refilling seeds from enemies very often to use the seeds like everywhere. I have made the route now to use a seed when it's "neccesary", there you will save most time using them. But I haven't been thinking of every small places where you could have used a seed instead of just walking... So I belive I shall remake the route a bit *sigh...*. Have only been working with this for like 5 hours.
Anyway, I will finish what I have started first. And give you that. And then I'll see if I shall improve it a bit. And you might find something when you get there.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Yay! The route is finished
http://www.filecrunch.com/file/~ga078y
At least V 1 :). I'll see if I can find some improvements to it, besides what I already mentioned in my earlier post. You will probably find something too.
Hope it will be for some use=).
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Done the route already, heh. I've been slacking and took a long break (few days) from TASing. I'm back on it now. I sure wish I was as dedicated to this game as you. Then maybe I'd finish in a couple of months.
There was a part where I could slash sword after digging. 1 screen before the tree with seeds, I made the required switch right after digging and then slashed. Saved 1 frame in that screen and saved 1 frame in the next by getting the seed with sword instead of rod.
Time to tackle level 2.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Haha, nice that you saved 2 frames, always something:).
Well, this is one of my favorite games, and I didn't do a speedrun of it for no reason. And I love to help as much as I can, so I'm working with the run quite a lot.
Good luck with dungeon 2! I will change the bomb route if you use more/less than I have calculated.
EDIT: Hmm, haha, I haven't got anything to do now when the Pegasus seed route is finished... Guess I shall start with some more Ages researching now:). Like making that pegasus seed route as well... If you haven't got a better idea?
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Hey Tompa, the first setup with snakes is giving me fits. I was testing to see the different types of layouts by slashing before going in that screen, and I saw one completely ideal setup for that room. However I had to slash 12 times to get it. The other 12 sucked pretty bad. I think this game is taunting me. Anyway, I was looking through my run to see if there are any places where I could slash a less amount of times before getting in the dungeon. And I found that you could charge your sword after slashing for the Mystery Seeds and stab the far right bush before Dungeon 2, which saves 4 frames, but I don't get any Ember Seeds, so instead of beginning the dungeon with 20, I have 15. Are Ember Seeds hard to come by in this game? Is it worth sacrificing 5 seeds for 4 frames?
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I presume you want me to make a "Ember seed route" haha, right?
Am starting to work with it at once...
EDIT: Ok, I'm done:
You start with 20:
4 are needed in dungeon 1. (16)
1 to get outside the village (15)
2 in the beginning of dungeon 2 (13)
4 at the miniboss in dungeon 4 (9) (Here you can get two new ones without losing any time.) (19)
3 in dungeon 4 to get a key (16)
1 to shoot at the switch when you are on your way to the boss in dungeon 4 (Takes a sec extra to change to a different seed (15))
5 for the boss, use ember seeds again (10).
(You have to get 4 new seeds in dungeon four, in the "four chest room" (14).
1 to get the crystal at the beach (13)
5 to light torches in dungeon 6 (8)
2 in dungeon 7 for the first ghost (6)
4 more for the second ghost (2)
1 to get the first key in dungeon 8 (1)
That's all.. So you don't need to get any at all outside dungeon 2:).
Hehe, that was fast^^. It took around 20 minutes to finish.. I must say, that's a record, lol.
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Cool, thanks.
I need to do some experimenting. The game engine seems to count a stab as a slash. So I'm going to see what happens if I don't slash after digging. If I still get a crappy set up with the snakes, I'm going to hex edit 12 extra slashes at the part where I have to wait for the bridge to appear. If that don't work, then I might have to sacrifice 44 frames because that one setup I got just seems too good to pass up.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I hate manipulation... That's the reason why I'm not making TAS's... Anyway, I hope you will get a good set up for the snakes.
I'm going to start with the Pegasus Route for Ages during the holiday, so I have that done. Because I haven't got anything to do with these game at the moment, hehe, I'm finishing all the routes too fast :D. I will gladly accept more work whenever you want, Dezbeats.
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
Ok, adding slashes at the bridge didn't work. Too many enemies got in my way. I managed to get a setup that is almost as good as the one where I had to slash 12 times. It only cost me one slash in the room before (17 frames) and not slashing after digging (1 frame) I also had to sacrifice another frame to get rid of a desync. 19 frames is about as good as I'm willing to get it. This game doesn't leave much room to manipulate in dungeon 2 without having to sacrifice a lot of frames.
Don't worry, I'm not going to quit. I just find it hard to continuously work on a TAS, so I was kind of taking a break. I have to admit though, it did leave my mind for awhile. dezbeast reminded me about it. So I'm back on it now.
Hmm, you said that Vespa was in dungeon 2. When looking at my route for it, and E_alert's version, I think they can both be improved by taking the first key close to the miniboss, and skip the small key in the end with hte many colored blocks. It should be faster really.
Yeah, I had already done that. You can skip one key because of pit walking and the one with all the color blocks seemed like it would take the longest to get, so I'm going to skip that one.
I'll post a WIP after beating the miniboss(although with using the pit glitch, this segment will only be a couple minutes long)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Yay! You are alive! Great that you have started with it again! I'm working with the pegasus route for ya. Is it something that you want me to research? I want as many tasks as possible :D.
PS: Looking forward for the next WIP;).
Right now, the pegasus seed route is the only thing I can think of.
Oh yeah, I also would like to know exactly how many rupees I'm going to eventually need. Isn't it like around 70 rupees?
Thanks
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
You will need 80 rupees
10 for Crescent Island
20 for the first Goron Dance
10 for the Seed Shooting game
20 for the sword target game
20 for the second Goron Dance
EDIT: Soon done with dungeon 5, this is slow hehe. I'm wondering... Do you want me to make a "where to get pegasus seeds" too Vespa? If you want to change the route a bit and need to know where you can get the seeds. So far I haven't cared about doing that. But if you want it, I will:).
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
In order to keep my motivation up I'll post mini updates on what I've done every now and then.
The first part with the snakes went pretty well. I was able to save 15 frames in the previous room by slashing off of both spikes which practically propels me, pretty much eliminating the time wasted slashing. The setup 2 rooms before the bracelet was very ideal. I killed all but one moblin with just 2 slashes. I had to sacrifice 4 frames to squeeze in an extra slash in order to manipulate the next room.
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
I'm going to double post from now on when posting from my PSP whenever I run out of memory.
The next setup was ok, doubt it's the best. I found that sacrificing 20 frames with 5 extra slashes to manipulate the enemies so I could slash them is almost exactly the same as going in the next room in the earliest frame possible and using a bomb optimally. I want to conserve as many bombs as I can anyway. I had to sacrifice a few more frames to manipulate the moblin to be in my path when I get back.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Sounds like you are coming forward anyway! That's good!
How many bombs have you used so far? And how many have you planned to use in the dungeon more than those I have in the route?
In case I need to change something to the bomb route... I haven't come up with any more timesavers so far, have been busy playing Twilight Princess. But as usual, just ask me to do something and I will do it.
Keep on the good work Dez!
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
I've used no bombs as of yet. I highly doubt I'll use more than what you already calculated. From what I analyzed so far in this game, manipulation to kill enemies with sword is almost always faster than using a bomb. So far I have 1 extra bomb since I didn't need it to get the bracelet. Go on ahead and enjoy TP. If I have more questions, I'll ask. Meanwhile I'll post updates as I progress.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Aha, it really was faster to use the sword instead of the bombs to get the bracelet... I doubt it so I didn't care to mention. How much time does it save?
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
It was significantly faster than Vespa's (I think the chest appeared over 30 frames earlier in mine), but I somehow doubt that he timed the bomb optimally because you could pick up the bomb in the room before. It could've just been the setup he had though. When I calculated, I determined it would be almost exactly the same. But keep in mind I sacrificed 20 frames in the room before to get that setup. So slashing is faster with perfect manipulation.
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
Good good.
I'm really thinking about starting speedrunning this game again:). Want to beat my time, because it sucks... Someone had uploaded my Onox battle on Youtube, and I must say: That sucked big time... I'm either doing a SS or a new Segmented one, not sure yet. But it shall go below two hours this time!
Joined: 3/10/2006
Posts: 347
Location: Maryland, United States
If your time sucked, then that must say a lot about Ego Buff's submission, being that it was just a few minutes faster than your run. But good luck if you decide to improve. Personally, I'm not too big on single segments for lengthy games like this one. You'd have to sacrifice too much quality.
