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Post subject: Re: Route Version 1
Joined: 5/27/2008
Posts: 57
Catastrophe wrote:
I also figured out that I'm going to need pretty much every HEART MAX UP in the game. I need 10 for a total of 150 hearts. But three of them are in Kalidius Channel, which is slow and requires a lot of backtracking for two of them. And then 5 more HEART MAX UPs are in Dracula's Castle. But that's good since HEART MAX UPs are the best way to replenish my hearts after a boss battle. So basically I need to spend all my hearts on a boss, find one of these before the next boss, and so on. The heart refresh items which are a rare drop on the first two maps are worth 30 hearts each. That's something I can't afford not to have either.
Looking at the maps on GameFAQs, it shouldn't be too bad on getting heart max ups. 6 are in your way(Minera Island, Kalidus Part 2, Tymeo(going to villager), Somnus Reef, Tristis Pass(going to villager), Castlevania(near start). As for the other 4 you need, the monestary, Kalidus part 1, and the skeleton cave ones can be gotten with a quick bit of leaving the fastest route, and there are two for you to choose from in the final area of Castlevania slightly off the fastest route. All in all, 11 Heart Max Ups that aren't more than a room off the main path.
Experienced player (961)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 940
Location: Castle Keep
Catastrophe wrote:
If someone can suggest a good codec to use I'm willing to do my own YT WIPs.
Random suggestion: xvid Edit: is there isnt any equipment in this game that will convert damage receive to hearts like in sotn? (blood cape) Would let you make some strategy to refill hearts by taking damage
Joined: 5/2/2008
Posts: 65
arukAdo wrote:
Edit: is there isnt any equipment in this game that will convert damage receive to hearts like in sotn? (blood cape) Would let you make some strategy to refill hearts by taking damage
There's only the Heart Cuirass, which makes you lose hearts instead of HP. With all the Heart Repairs you can manipulate, I think there's little reason to waste time on getting too many max ups. Also, any chance on a "aims for least in-game time" category for Castlevanias? It would affect gameplay significantly, and make comparison of tool- and unassisted runs a lot easier.
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
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Serris wrote:
Also, any chance on a "aims for least in-game time" category for Castlevanias? It would affect gameplay significantly, and make comparison of tool- and unassisted runs a lot easier.
I'm going to ask exactly two questions: 1) is there more than one set of items that could require switching depending on the situation; 2) if yes, is there more than a single situation where items have to be swapped back and forth. My (and I'm sure, many others') opinion solely depends on the answers, and I can elaborate the reasons.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Experienced player (961)
Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 940
Location: Castle Keep
I dont think it apply to OoE outside equiping/using medicine, but in POR using warps doesnt count toward the in game timer since you basicly reset game (well, its call suspend but same result) I will guess serris sayd that because its easier to compare a game timer for real time users, alltought, it doesnt fit well with how movies files actually works Its very important imo that the outside game access are counted in the movie file, else it would be pretty much problem to optimize those parts, even if none care about them, its part of the "superplay" too
Joined: 5/2/2008
Posts: 65
Yeah, it's not specifically about OoE, and like arukAdo said, the first game that comes to mind is PoR. I should probably add that I personally consider aiming for in-game time the default situation for games with reliable timers, but I realize this is usually not the case here, so a separate category seems like the best solution, assuming TASers are interested in making runs aiming for in-game time.
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Well, I'll try to explain myself. Usually I'm in favor of in-game timers, but in some cases that requires a heavy menu manipulation as the player gets items that vary in their benefits enough for being swapped every now and then. It disrupts the flow of the game and makes it less comprehensible. For a good example of this, I usually refer to the current SDA run of Castlevania AoS boss rush mode with Soma: while the ingame timer shows 01:21 at the end, the movie itself is twice as long, and it's barely possible to understand what's going on without pausing to see what the player does and reading a boatload of explanations for each step. Mind you, this is one of my favorite runs on SDA ever, but it would become obnoxious pretty quick if it was significantly longer. Obviously, a good TAS would try to minimize the timer in the exact same fashion, except the whole thing will last much more than 2.5 minutes. While I obviously understand the benefits of directly comparing in-game time, it shouldn't sacrifice entertainment for the sake of convenience. That's my two cents.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Post subject: OoE Route Update
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Serris - You said "With all the Heart Repairs you can manipulate". There only 2. These items only appear in the Monastery and in the Forest. Technically, I could buy them after a long quest or get them to drop from a Ladycat. But basically there will only ever be two in my whole run. And the max ups are most efficient way of refilling my hearts anyway. Each Heart Refresh is basically a cup of tea that restores 30 hearts instead of 5 or 10. They don't even fill you up. For reason I'm also considering tea when planning my route. If I have 70 hearts, I can SLAM SLAM SLAM SLAM, drink a cup a of tea, SLAM, and finish the boss off with combos. If 5 SLAMs will kill Eligor before he throws me off his back then a simple cup of tea just did the work of a Heart Refresh. (Totally hypothetical.) The Queen of Hearts is impossible to have when you're starting with fresh SRAM. Just throwing that out there. My XviD encoder is producing 5kb movies with just the header and no body. Sad. And all my other encoders are either non-functional or producing 20 MB per minute. I'm going to have to go with raw uncompressed frames, then use Windows Movie Maker to convert it to a size that YouTube will accept, and then pray the result does not look like a jpeg sent through a washing machine. Things to watch: 10D728 = boss HP (2 bytes) 1007A2 = contents of the "first" random treasure chest (2 bytes) A4, A6, A6, A8, AA, AC, AE = random chests 2-8, even if the map doesn't have that many. 100374 = game clock, time is in frames (4 bytes) Figuring out which memory addresses contained the chests was major pain. This post is already getting long, so, *snip* and that was all I did Friday besides my job. I'm going to need 6 Magical Tickets (warp) this run. The occasions are: Skeleton Cave Minera Prison, when I backtrack to grab Aeon Oblivion Ridge Ecclesia, when Barlowe sends me to kill Albus Mystery Manor, right after I kill Albus Ecclesia, right after I kill Barlowe I get one for free in Kalidus. Then I need to manipulate 5 more or buy them. Unfortunately, these things only appear in the Monastery, Forest, and in Minera. And in two of those places I'm trying to manipulate Heart Refreshes instead. And my luck stat is 2. Right now the plan is to get one and a HR from each of the first two maps, then 1-2 on each visit to Minera. Ruvas Forest only has two treasure chests, so I may have to go 2-2 or 3-1 in Minera. It's kind of funny that I need use a Ticket for the backtracking, but that the backtracking might end up being the thing that gives me a surplus of tickets. I'm pretty far into the Monastery and I've pulled off two good wtf moments so far. One is an impossible jump, and one is a neat trick to kill three skeletons at once. I'm also able to pass through a skeleton at one point as if he's not even there. I think I got bonus invulnerability time from a zombie or something. moozooh - Console runs pause to switch their equipment rather than use the glyph sleeve because, ironically, it's faster since pausing also pauses the clock. (Ironic because the glyph sleeve was intended to be convenient and fast.) Mostly, speed runners just pause on and off for Rapidus Fio and to take a quick breath. But in my TAS the glyph sleeve also costs zero time! If anything I'm saving game time during the fade lag. Since I'm definitely abusing Rapidus Fio on a sleeve I might accidentally end up with the fastest in-game time, too. I haven't yet encountered a situation where I would sacrifice game time for real time.
Post subject: Re: Starting OoE!
Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA
Catastrophe wrote:
Satoryu wrote:
how does that not save time? it cuts out a normally mandatory revisit.
Oh yeah! It does! I can grab Laura, grab Marcel, and exit by Marcel. I just checked to make sure that the Misty Forest Road is still unlocked if you take the alternate exit instead of the normal exit, and it is!
I...mentioned that. *shrug* As for heart restoring items, don't forget the possible coffees/milks (6 or 4 hearts, respectively) from town, though I'd imagine you're not spending many times in town...still, they respawn occasionally (not sure of trigger) so you should be able to get several. Also, mint sundae for 10 outside Eligor, don't forget.I'm sure you already know about the two teas (one in chests that you should be getting HR from, other drops from Grave Diggers), but I include them for completeness. edit: You might be manipulating blow/wind rings against your HR as well. Archer rings are a novelty if you don't have the MP and wind rings work on bows anyway. Going to be taking out the first Tin Man on way out of Minera for the Strength Ring? I can't really see it if you can get two wind/blow rings, but it's another sort of on the way thing. Also, Culter may be of some use (attacking on approach to boss/enemy), but probably not enough to be worth the 3-5 seconds it takes to get.
Post subject: First Boss Complete
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Thank you! It was you who said that. I am thinking about coffee, milk (4 hearts is useless, though), and the sundae. Also, the Blow Ring spawns in the *other* forest, thankfully. And the Wind Ring spawns in Somnus Reef. So those are still options. I'll decide how underpowered I am when I get there. Killing the Tin Min might be an option, if I'm not doing 1 damage, and if I don't need the hearts for Brachyura. The Tin Man might level me up, too. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=65S1EULJ At frame ~6800 the skeleton enemies are positioned like so: "k____k_S_k_" with Shanoa facing left. My rapier glyph union hits the two in front of me twice, and the one behind me once! Then I press the X button and strike the one behind me through myself. The collision box of the X button attack is different than the Y button attack. The Y button attack would not have worked here and I would have been hit. At frame ~7800 this jump is impossible. You cannot make it by jumping from the ledge no matter what. It's actually the little ceiling that prevents you from making it, not the height. But if you back-hop from the first frame inside the doorway and jump then you end up hitting the side of the platform that you're trying to jump onto. The solution is to move right a little bit, then backhop and jump. This saves a huge amount of time. I sacrificed 8 frames to beat the boss without taking a hit. What I should've done was strike my rapier one more time, let the boss bowl me over with his rolling attack, and then kill him with one fewer hit later on. But it looked so crappy to take a hit for no obvious reason and the tool-assisted Magnes is so cool that I just had to do it right.
Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
OK, I just finished watching this, so I'll offer up some opinions. 1) You seem to be a bit inconsistent when it comes to jumping up ledges, an example being the one in the cathedral or wherever it is you start (I forget) when you're leaving, compared to some in the monastery. 2) You missed an easy 20 frame saving on the entrance to the monastery by jumping into the entrance instead of quickdashing up the incline. 3) At frame 6448 it probably would've been the ideal frame to start jumping up to the ledge, but you delayed it until 6558. To further this, you didn't backdash off of the edge on the top one, which more than likely cost you some more frames. There's quite a bit more, but I find it's hard to detail it when writing like this since there's many minor mistakes, and at least one bigger one. If you're able to hop onto irc, I'd be able to detail them better directly to you so you understand what I mean. Also, you should get the gold chest, if only because it's directly in your path and it's nice to see the name of what you're killing as an entertainment factor.
Joined: 5/2/2008
Posts: 65
I'm not sure what you're going to need all these hearts for - without endgame glyphs and crazy stuff like Death Ring (which you will most likely have for Death & Drac only, +Eligor at most) and Judgment Ring (Drac only), I think Glyph Unions are rarely worth the effort. During my real-time tests, rapid dual weapon spam was usually just as, if not more effective, which I imagine would be even more so the case with tool-assistance. Indeed, I mostly used unions for kill-it-before-it-kills-me tactics where dodging would have wasted too much time, but that's pointless if you can keep up your damage output while surviving.
Joined: 5/27/2008
Posts: 57
The main thing hearts are needed are for the Nitesco Sword Union for the final boss(does excessive amounts of holy damage, especially with Death Ring+Dominus). 150 hearts will get you 10 Nitesco swords, which should be enough to off Dracula(and if not, will get him rather close). Before that, unions are best for bosses that are hard to reach(Giant skeleton) or bosses with multiple parts(Ice+Ice union absolutely destroys Maneater)
Sir_VG
He/Him
Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1914
Location: Floating Tower
Here's an encode for you guys. Damn I love anri-chan. Makes life easy. Also, makes this game much easier to watch. http://www.mediafire.com/?zzmynhdz3ml
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
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Hmm, seems like DeSmuME doesn't play samples back correctly. This can be heard when entering new areas or when Shanoa moans after a hit.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA
Also, since it's going to be (relatively) low-level, glyph unions will mean faster kills simply due to not taking mp. Well, looks okay, others have pointed out mistakes. I'm going to point out that you didn't grab the red drops. Also, you could get in a hit or two by using slidekick on the boss while you're waiting for MP, but that'd sacrifice your no-hit and the medal, I guess. Hearts on Brachyura...well, you have at most Knife, Mace, Spear, Rapier, Sword, Shield, Bow? Bow union's not bad on him, but it's more expensive. The rest are (normally) not so easy to hit him with. (Side note: That's the other possible use in tas for knife/culter, the union, since you deal so many packets sans MP) Route point: Redire+Magnes. While you'd need a significant detour to get, it's faster than the plain Speed Up glyph, allows you to skip the detour to Volaticus, and you can't travel vertically as fast with anything else, with proper slingshotting. (If you're unfamiliar, the fastest horizontal is to fire holding R, and release a bit after when the distance is at the point where Magnes pulls you fastest and a bit up, rather than just holding R and spamming. For vertical, you wait a bit longer, naturally.) The clock tower alone would permit huge savings doing this, but...I'm not sure. Of course X and Y have different hitboxes. Different arms. Slightly different vertically, quite noticeable on horizontal.
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Thank you Sir VG! Watching the run at full speed was amazing. When I'm playing I use only frame advance. And I can't play the movie back at full speed. So your encode was the first time I saw my own run. There's a lot to talk about. I've been TASing for awhile but this is the first time I've posted anything for the public that isn't just menus. So I wanted to make sure that it was really good before I posted it. If something looks out place, it probably caused me a lot of agony before I decided to move on. For example, at 2:30 in the encode I take what looks like a really stupid hit from a skeleton. I spent 20 minutes trying to find a better way around that guy. I'll mention him later. Nothing in these three minutes was done only once. Every single doorway and every single backhop was done twice. If there are improvements then it's not because I was sloppy. This WIP already has frame-shaving revisions. This game is also a pain in the ass to TAS. Because backhopping is (L)(B)(10 frames rest) repeated over and over, with no macros feature in the emulator, I'm constantly pressing buttons every frame. Pretty much everything affects the RNG and every screen is loaded with enemies. Even with The Legend of Zelda I'd find 8 seconds here and there of quiet time where I could just hold the space bar. This game, not so much. I've spent about 12 hours playing and 6 hours planning for my 3 minute WIP so far. This game changes pretty radically depending on the scene. I might spend half an hour learning the optimal way around a skeleton. But then I have to relearn to dodge a skeleton while there's a banshee in the air because it's totally different. And then the double jump blows everything up. I'll use the encode for reference since that's easier to rewind. 0:33 - Jumping to the first boss door in Ecclesia. This was the only improvement that I knew of when I posted the WIP. At the time I didn't understand doorways very well. But running this game is so long and tedious that I didn't want to undo the tutorial for single digit frames. (Double digit frames, maybe.) So one point for Atma. 0:58 - Tutorial Skeletons - A theoretical improvement here would be to scroll several enemies on screen at once, use a glyph union to kill two or three at once, and then not kill some skeletons in the Monastery. 1:09-1:11 - The long fall in Ecclesia - If I don't jump in the air then my feet hit the ledge long enough to cause a stun. And if I hold the jump button one frame longer then I spend an unnecessary amount of time in the air (slower). It looks like I hit the ledge, but it's fine because I don't 'stun'. There's no way around the stun when I hit the floor, but I minimize it. (I did rewind here to save single digit frames. Give me a break.) 1:13 - Exit Ecclessia - I'm manipulating luck. Zero points for Atma. After rewinding the movie I knew how to handle doorways when I recorded this. Interestingly, the game "holds left and stops" when Shanoa exits the screen, which always causes a dust cloud and RNG manipulation. Unless you're in the air. Kind of an odd programming quirk because Shanoa is off screen and out of your control.
Editor, Emulator Coder, Expert player (2159)
Joined: 5/22/2007
Posts: 1134
Location: Glitchvania
I can't download the video from mediafire as it always disconnects for me at 25% completion or so. Would anyone please do me a favour of uploading it somewhere else like rapidshare, and send me the link? EDIT: Slow but stable. Good move, Catastrophe ;)
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days <adelikat> no doubt <adelikat> klmz, they still do
Post subject: OoE WIP1 part 2
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
1:24 - Monastery Steps. I remember this clearly. First, this screen lags horribly. It might be the emulator, it might be the trees in the foreground, but something isn't right and it made my backhops take 13-14 frames each. You can't backhop up slopes. Shanoa will go a few pixels and stop. However, I did try backhopping anyway, and I found it to be faster than sliding (which works fine on slopes), but slower than what I did in the movie. But again, I just tested it now, and it was 7 frames slower. So my testing was wrong. Another point for Atma. However, assuming I choose jump, then the jump is optimal because it gives me the shortest path to the floor in the next room. So it's not exactly 20 frames. 1:25 - Dropping Down from Doorways. Taking the shortest path to the floor like this is always fastest if you end your previous backhop in the right place. However, it is not worth it to delay your backhop such that you can drop straight down to resume backhopping sooner. Basically, because I can't jump during the 10 frames I'm in the air during a backhop, and the length of a backhop is approximately equal to that of a doorway, I might find it to be faster or just as fast to 'float' off a doorway. Especially if I'm manipulating enemies. (2:56) 1:28 - Killing skeletons. These guys take lots of time to either kill or dodge. And I know I have to kill a certain number of them to reach level 2. So I chose to kill the first ones I saw for entertainment. 1:37 - wtf. I dodge and kill this skeleton. This is horrifyingly stupid and I can't remember why. I'd like to blame the zombies but I can't be sure. It's possible that this was what it took for me to pass through the second zombie. It's also possible that this skeleton had the 'quickdraw' and was going to bone me regardless. This I'll rewind for if it's fixable. (FUCK.) I'm sure Atma noticed, but I'm surprised he missed the chance to call me sloppy. 1:45 - sliding into a bat. Reversing direction while backhopping costs frames. Drawing out the rapier costs even more frames. Sliding is a huge delay, but I could not dodge the bat without stopping. So I positively had to either slide our use my rapier. And sliding was faster. It's also funny, because I do 1 damage to everything in the game with my foot. 1:47 - what Atma said about 6448. I jump high because I do not backdash. It seems very unlikely that either the skeleton or the bats would have caught me if I had backdashed. If it was a mistake, it's less than 5 frames. If I rewind to 1:37 then I'll have to redo everything anyway. (No major hexing the movie in this game. The work is lost.) One point for Atma. Yes, this game really does call for paragraphs every 10 seconds. Every screen is unique. Later levels I'll be able to say 'like in the Monastery', at least. 1:53 - BOOM. I love this part. This is what I'd like to do to the tutorial in Ecclesia. 2:02 - Magnes. The third Magnes probably looks sub-optimal. But you can't direct Magnes until after it sucks you into the center. And if you're going too fast it holds you there a bit. You can't just tap 'R' as you pass over it. So I fling myself quickly into the next room. 2:09 - low cieling. Already mentioned. At 2:10 the entrance to the secret room is definitely optimal. 2:23 - falling again from a great height. When the height is high enough, it's worth holding left right in midair to move a few extra pixels even though it delays backhopping. I skip the Book of Secrets because it's not something you can open and walk from. It causes one of those annoying boxes that holds you up a few seconds. I also figured I could use subtitles to do the same thing if someone was offended. And sure enough, first comment from Atma, was that I missed the Book. 2:31 - bastard skeleton. This jerk *has* to hit me. Seriously. Nothing I could do could dodge him without stopping for longer than it would take to start backhopping again. (I hope this is why I acted the way I did at 1:37.) The horizontal displacement is meaningless since I get it back for free in the next few vertical jumps. I'd wobble there anyway. 2:33 - again. Another instance of 1:47. Which proves it was intentional. But being intentional doesn't mean it wasn't dumb or wrong. And i see no bats here. 2:50 - Magnes up to the boss door. Shooting myself left could be done on the first earliest frame I could reach the magnet point. It was faster to shoot myself up and left, then backhop right, than it was to move around and shoot myself in the correct direction. I'm sure that looks wrong. The boss was surprisingly straightforward compared to the platforming parts. He always starts by rolling at you. So I can get in, at most, 1 "magic bar" and 3 unions. Sneaking in the third union requires doing it last as I use Magnes to save myself. Because I land as early as possible, the boss is still moving, and thus I couldn't combo him even if I had MP. So I use the 4th and final union now to maximize my MP usage for the rest of the fight. EDIT: Sneaky, klmz. :) This link is only good ten times. So no one download it before klmz gets a chance to. http://rapidshare.com/files/234719825/OOE_Boss1.mp4.html
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Thank you for these detailed comments, they sure help appreciating your actions and appraising the quality of the run.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 6/27/2007
Posts: 137
Location: Germany
Awesome WIP! Yeah i also thought sometimes: "hmm, why got he hit there?" But when there isn't a way around =D
Joined: 5/27/2008
Posts: 57
eternaljwh wrote:
Route point: Redire+Magnes. While you'd need a significant detour to get, it's faster than the plain Speed Up glyph, allows you to skip the detour to Volaticus, and you can't travel vertically as fast with anything else, with proper slingshotting.
Thank you, I knew there was a good reason for getting it somewhere. The only other reason I could think of for Volaticus is to dodge stuff in Dracula's first form, but since it's a TAS, not only will that only be a problem when he teleports against the wall, luck manipulation can force dracula to teleport to more open places, where you can jump behind him and Nitesco sword your way to victory.
Post subject: Improvements
Joined: 11/17/2005
Posts: 278
Location: Massachusetts, USA
I'm going to try to improve the embarrassing part at 1:37. If I can, it'll be a setback, but I'll be able to make Atma happy with my first submission. The 'bastard skeleton' at 2:31, the one who was required to hit me, could be killed instead. If I kill him instead of someone else then his bone will miss in a wide arch. That would be faster. The skeletons in this game have arms like outfielders. Stop the input right after I pick up the magical ticket and you'll see a bone come flying in from off screen. They really lock onto you with those things. In Ruvas Forest I need the hammer for its highest damage. There is a Giant Skeleton boss coming up and and I need the blow (blunt) damage. I'll also need it for Maneater and several undodgable monsters in the Skeleton Cave. I would also like the axe. The axe has two important uses: I can throw it while backhopping for free hits/kills without stopping, and it lets me attack multiple levels in Minera. Minera Prison Island is basically a series of bunk beds that you have to cross. And of course each level is crowded with enemies. I can't combo with an Axe, but one Axe+Hammer should kill things. But that's getting ahead of myself. I have to go back to the Monastery first. I didn't slide into the boss because I would do 1 damage. One damage won't save me a hit. And actually, the boss can only hit me twice before I die. So I couldn't anyway. But once I get the double jump I will stomp all over every boss while I'm regenerating my MP. Also, I skip the red drops because I'm not using the fire magic anywhere in this run. Black and White Drops I'll stop and consider when I get there. EDIT: Axes while backhopping either cost 1 frame between hops, or they are 'free' and can be used to cancel a hop. There's also this crazy "double axe" move I can do to throw axes forward while backhopping: (right + X) <- on the frame between backhops (L) (B) (rest 5 frames) (X) (left 5 frames) (left + L) (B) <- the start of a new backhop do a backhop do another backhop Shanoa will be hit by her first axe and will pass under the second. At full speed this should look crazy.
Joined: 7/1/2008
Posts: 272
i dunno about getting Redire. i have a hard time imagining the detour required for it being undone by the time it saves. and i believe the Nitesco Sword Union does both Holy and Fire damage.
Joined: 3/11/2008
Posts: 583
Location: USA
Holy+fire+slash, I think, actually. Not sure. You should be able to attack above with a timed sword/hammer perhaps (They do have a bit of swing animation that hits), though- remember, Axe glyphs are rather expensive mp-wise. And you didn't mention the Red Drops hidden drop that you skipped.
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