Post by DDRKhat

Posted: 2/19/2015 1:07 AM

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biggyboy

Player (51)

Joined: 2/7/2012
Posts: 70

I think C. Shot Plug Man is good. I messed around with it trying to find a good real time route www.twitch.tv/dabigbooi2/b/621037134?t=15s A TAS could do another zip at 0:41 and on the spikes at 0:46. Pardon me for my noobish question but how do I get your movie to play on dolphin? I get this error on dolphin 4.0-5396.

Posted: 2/19/2015 7:56 AM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Diggi I hear you. I figured I would make as much as possible progress until you review latest wips. It should save us a bit of time and I don't mind redoing stuff :) I am used to it. Biggyboy, check your settings and the revision you are using.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 2/19/2015 10:49 AM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (584)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

biggyboy wrote:

I think C. Shot Plug Man is good. I messed around with it trying to find a good real time route www.twitch.tv/dabigbooi2/b/621037134?t=15s A TAS could do another zip at 0:41 and on the spikes at 0:46. Pardon me for my noobish question but how do I get your movie to play on dolphin? I get this error on dolphin 4.0-5396.

Yea I get that error sometimes, too. I tried searching online but never really found an answer. We're using revision 4.0-4796, but just make sure that idle skipping and dual core are both turned off, and use the DPS LLE sound recompiler. But I'm pretty sure the error comes from the controller settings, so make sure all the gamecube controllers and wiimotes 2-4 are set to none. Then make sure wiimote motor and speakers are off. Or try changing some settings in the emulated wiimote 1. Hope that helps. As far as your concrete shot strategy, it looks great and probably helps to get a consistently fast real time route, but as I mentioned before, even if you somehow managed to get a full zip off every C. shot, it still doesn't make up for the time it takes to switch to that weapon (short by about 24 frames). AngerFist uploaded a route that only uses the rush jet since we have to use it later in the level. Since it only changes weapons once, it's faster than yours (even fully optimized) by about half a second. Thanks for your idea, though.

Posted: 2/19/2015 3:23 PM

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biggyboy

Player (51)

Joined: 2/7/2012
Posts: 70

Ah, thanks for the reply :) Looking forward to the finished run! Good luck guys

Posted: 2/20/2015 6:58 AM

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diggidoyo

Experienced player (584)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

So Anger, I was playing around with the beginning of Jewel Man's stage because I noticed it's possible to pass two of the spider's without killing them and wasting bees as I do here: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20923657249304951 Unfortunately, this messes up the RNG for the miniboss and adds 6-7 frames of wait time to get a better spawn. However, the only reason why I wanted to check it was because I saw you picked up a small weapon refill pellet at frame 38726 because you ran out of energy. Since that refill costed 8 frames, this means 1 or 2 frames can be saved by not killing those spiders and saving the bees for when you need them. Or if there's a way to not need that refill pellet at all it would save 8 frames. There's an extra shot of black hole bomb at the end, maybe we can use that somehow?

Posted: 2/20/2015 10:22 AM

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got4n

Experienced player (589)

Joined: 2/5/2011
Posts: 1417
Location: France

Sorry to be not working on it, tests and such, that annoys me a lot, and also, for your error it might also come that you have a GC controller plugged on Dolphin, check if no GC is plugged (not a true GC but in dolphin settings), also, try to delete your save of Wii :p

Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand

Posted: 2/20/2015 10:39 AM

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ALAKTORN

He/Him

Former player

Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy

diggidoyo wrote:

Unfortunately, this messes up the RNG for the miniboss and adds 6-7 frames of wait time to get a better spawn.

Are you killing the enemies on the same frame as before? Weapon use makes no difference on RNG, it’s all about timing of kills. The RNG gets called every time a drop can or can’t happen, to decide the outcome; not when shooting.

Posted: 2/20/2015 9:39 PM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (584)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

You're right about weapon use, but boss RNG is all about how many enemies are killed (plus timing). Killing those two spiders puts the optimal pattern on the right frame to not wait at the door. But since I avoided those two spiders instead of killing them, this puts optimal pattern on a different frame. In mega man 10 killing an enemy called the RNG and moved the optimal pattern sooner by 1 frame. I'm not sure why its not the same case here. But another thing to note is that in MM10, refill drops appeared as soon as the enemy is killed. In this game, it takes 4 or so frames after killing the enemy for the RNG to determine the drop. That could have something to do with it. The only question is if using that weapon energy to manipulate the miniboss is worth the weapon refill, which I dont think it is (by 1 frame).

Posted: 2/24/2015 8:06 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Sorry for the late reply my man. Since you had bad rng, I went back and killed one of the two spiders you avoided in case we would get a better rng for the miniboss. The closest I got waisting 1 frame was when the miniboss moved one block to the right so it's still a no dice situation. Granted, I did not thoroughly test this approach but I am pretty sure there isn't much left to test with this route. I also tested waiting 2 frames but it was the same result. What's left to test is killing the opposite spider and see if that result in a better manipulation. Diggi, are you absolutely sure it takes 8 whole frames to grab a simple weapon refill? It sounds a lot :( Haven't had time to measure exactly how many frames it takes to grab a small refill since I am trying to get a good rng for the miniboss.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 2/25/2015 3:47 AM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (584)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Good question. Ignore the fancy tornado sprites. The weapon actually acts a horizontal line that moves up the screen. As you've mentioned, Mega Man's vertical acceleration is increased while above this line, and some enemies and projectiles are blown away. Larger enemies such as bosses take damage as they pass through the line. This is the reason why Magma Man can be killed in 4 T.blows. If he's at the bottom level and you time your shot until he's about to jump, he will take the first hit immediately, and follow the line up as he jumps. After his invincibility wears off he will still be inside the line and take his second hit from the same T. Blow.

AngerFist wrote:

What's left to test is killing the opposite spider and see if that result in a better manipulation.

I'm fairly positive that individual spiders don't matter since it only matters how many times the RNG was called. So our options are no spiders, one spider, or both spiders. As far as waiting for the optimal pattern, I got your pattern if I killed neither spider and waited 7 frames. Each weapon refill pellet takes 4 frames per pixel UNLESS the refill fills the top pixel, in which case that last pixel only takes 1 frame. But since we're not topping off the weapon energy it's 8 frames. Did you try clearing the part after the miniboss with a black hole bomb? We have one extra. I think if we kill both spiders for RNG and kill the miniboss, we can skip the refill pellet and use the BHB on that last green enemy. Although it wont look nearly as cool as having that bee chase you across the stage, it should save 8 frames.

Posted: 2/25/2015 7:57 AM

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AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

I have not tested your black hole bomb route but sure could use a hand :) I just first want to make sure killing the other spider leaves us with the same or better rng.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 2/25/2015 8:18 AM

Quote

DDRKhat

Player (37)

Joined: 9/9/2006
Posts: 388

diggidoyo wrote:

Good question. Ignore the fancy tornado sprites. The weapon actually acts a horizontal line that moves up the screen. As you've mentioned, Mega Man's vertical acceleration is increased while above this line, and some enemies and projectiles are blown away. Larger enemies such as bosses take damage as they pass through the line. This is the reason why Magma Man can be killed in 4 T.blows. If he's at the bottom level and you time your shot until he's about to jump, he will take the first hit immediately, and follow the line up as he jumps. After his invincibility wears off he will still be inside the line and take his second hit from the same T. Blow.

Ah. That is a very good explanation of the double T.Blow hit that even the AGDQ runners don't know about yet. My final question in this would be; do we know -how- it affects Mega's jump arc? Because you have to be jumping in order for it to affect you (at least that's how it's felt to me?) do we know the nitty gritty of that?

A whisper in the wind~~

Posted: 2/26/2015 10:54 PM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (584)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

DDRKhat wrote:

My final question in this would be; do we know -how- it affects Mega's jump arc?

I'm not sure yet, I'll be able to tell you more once we actually aqcuire the weapon. But I'm guessing it's some kind of positive multiplier onto your vertical acceleration depending on how close you are to the line. That's why your descent is slowed if you missed your timing and why not jumping at all doesn't do anything. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21071703673347741 AngerFist, Here's a file that should save 8 more frames by using your route for the first half of the level but skips the energy refill. Total of 22 frames saved so far, however, I stopped before the last see-saw area because I still have one pixel of bee energy left and I haven't switched to BHB yet. If we can save one more bee somewhere in the level, we can kill the first spider in the last leg of the level with them, then switch to black hole bomb to kill the second spider. Could save another 8-10 frames. Did killing one spider have any RNG luck on the boss?

Posted: 2/27/2015 7:30 AM

Quote

ALAKTORN

He/Him

Former player

Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy

If you’re saving frames then the RNG would be shifted compared to before. Not much point going by old results, just try it all anew with the improved file? Does Dolphin have RAM Watch? It sounds like you aren’t watching the RNG. You could maybe use Cheat Engine or something else too for it. Finding the RNG shouldn’t be too hard, I’d look for 4 bytes changing every frame.

Posted: 2/27/2015 11:41 AM

Post subject: Jewel Man v2, Hexing needed

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

diggidoyo wrote:

If we can save one more bee somewhere in the level, we can kill the first spider in the last leg of the level with them.

Done!

diggidoyo wrote:

Did killing one spider have any RNG luck on the boss?

Will test asap. Edit: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21084264361666871 Diggi, I haven't measured how much we saved from saving yet another bee for the second half of the stage. I tased up to the point where Jewel Man is only 1hp from filling up his HP. Can you please try hexing? Edit: Good news Diggi, I tried killing the other spider before the miniboss and no dice there aswell. I believe the version you worked on recently is the best one. So again, please try hexing. This is my latest progress up until Plug Man: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21089934302781401 Edit 2: To be clear, the Plug Man file does not contain your Jewel Man fight.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 2/27/2015 11:48 PM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (584)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Right I'll hex all that in. One question, though. I took a look at the end of your file and you don't have enough rush jet energy left to make it all the way across the gap (and platform up two spots later on). Did you have something else in mind for that? Otherwise we'll have to tighten up the jet usage earlier in the level and possibly even use one or two of the blocks like the record 32:01 rta does. This might slow the rush jet route enough to make biggboy's concrete shot route faster since it conserves jet energy. The block timing is based fixed from start of the level and the blocks before the last ladder might create a frame rule for us when we get there.

ALAKTORN wrote:

Does Dolphin have RAM Watch? It sounds like you aren’t watching the RNG. You could maybe use Cheat Engine or something else too for it. Finding the RNG shouldn’t be too hard, I’d look for 4 bytes changing every frame.

Yea, I think I heard something about it but I'm not sure how to use it or where it is. It's not exactly a prominent or intuitive feature of Dolphin at this point. But trial and error works just the same.

Posted: 2/28/2015 8:02 AM

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Yeah forgot to say, you can hex edit all the up to the point where I switch to Rush Jet in Plug Man. We obviously have to redo that part :)

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 2/28/2015 12:09 PM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (584)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21106156331517833 Here's the updated file, and I fixed your rush coil usage so we have enough energy for the whole stage. However, if you take a look a look at the end of the file, I was unfortunately right, the blocks there create a frame rule. We're actually only a few frames away from passing it, but as it stands, we lose all of the time we saved over the rta (about 2 seconds) at that screen since it takes over 100 frames of waiting to continue. However, I have an idea that uses biggyboy's concrete shot route that could fix it. It costs a lot of time to switch weapons, but the block pattern is paused the entire time. This means any time saved from zipping goes directly towards breaking that frame rule. So we should be able to use concrete shot for the first half of level to make it past those blocks at the end.

Posted: 2/28/2015 4:51 PM

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

I see what you mean Diggi. It seems we are forced to use Concrete Shot before. Can we use Concrete Shot afterwards? Specifically the last room where we nudge the three blocks. Was thinking maybe using Concrete Shot there? Also, I had completely forgotten to ask you this before but why did you pause abuse the Jewel Man fight? Since we haven't done it before in our run, I do not think that will look good and consistent with our goal, which is no pause abuse.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 2/28/2015 5:10 PM
(Edited: 3/2/2015 12:29 PM)

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (584)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

AngerFist wrote:

Also, I had completely forgotten to ask you this before but why did you pause abuse the Jewel Man fight? Since we haven't done it before in our run, I do not think that will look good and consistent with our goal, which is no pause abuse.

Because it saves 1 frame. Also, I would argue that the weapon refresh I did there is exactly what would not be considered "abuse" as I only used it once. Our goal isn't "no pause abuse," it's fastest any%. Weapon refreshing is a viable tactic for finishing the game faster. Granted, we haven't had to use it up to this point, but that's only because it takes 75 frames to perform, so any tactic must save at least this many frames. Using it against Jewel Man actually saved 76 frames (this is obvious by his position at the end) but only 1 of them counted. Also, there will be times we'll need to do it during the wily stages (wily stage 3's boss for instance). Also, I was up all night but I got a surprise for you: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/21110685029486964 Using the concrete shot route was indeed a lot faster by nearly 150 frames!!! Thanks Biggyboy! That's even counting the frames it takes to switch weapons (so it saves nearly 300 frames). I found so many zips, that it was actually fast enough to make it to the next frame rule! Which means there's really no possible improvements on the stage. Then I went ahead and TAS'd Tornado man, too, since I did that one back in the day so I already know the route. This file now has us sitting at Wily 1! The save file for the eight bosses shows 11:47 in-game time and it took us about 18:10 real time. Now it's time for the fun part, haha. We'll have to plan our weapon usage throughout all 4 wily levels. I compared our run to the 32:01 RTA record by privateye (which is the longest standing record for a "classic" mega man game) as well as to the 20:37 in-game time record by rggibson. We've improved on the RTA by a full minute, and we're also ahead of the in-game time record by 45 seconds. It's very likely that an in-game TAS starting with Tornado Man would improve on that even more, though.

Posted: 2/28/2015 5:54 PM

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

One word describes your surprise: HARDCORE! Wow man that was a pleasant surprise :) Very very nice work. I only have two questions: 1) Did you test not taking a hit in Tornado Man? 2) Did you make absolutely sure that simply falling down vs. jumping before a was faster or equally fast? 'Cause normally you have better Y-value if you are jumping before a pit. Yeah now begins the headache of planning weapon usage. Edit: Your zipping in Plug Man looked really crazy and fast :P

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 2/28/2015 6:04 PM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (584)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

1) There shouldn't be any hit. Probably a desync. Where exactly is it happening? Let me know if it persists when you try to play it and I'll redo the fight. 2) I did test this, yes (and just retested again). I hop at the beginning because accelerating from a stop is slightly slower than hopping into the rain, but after that you need to be on the ground as much as possible. Even though hopping over ledges gets you down to the lower ground faster, it also increases your air time, which ends up being slower by 1 frame. And yea, I was actually suprised I found three extra zips from the dissapearing blocks themselves. Those were only possible because I was in the perfect position from zipping in the first place. Zipcetion! I'm so glad a strategy like that is possible, since I was worried from the beginning that the zip would never really get to be fully shown in this TAS due to not having quick weapon switching.

Posted: 2/28/2015 6:37 PM

Quote

AngerFist

Active player (437)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Sorry for being unclear. I didn't meant the Tornado Man fight itself. I meant those two red enemies charging at you. I believe it's somewhere in the middle of the stage.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 2/28/2015 6:38 PM

Quote

diggidoyo

Experienced player (584)

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 427
Location: Oregon

Ah, yes I tried a small jump but I couldn't squeeze under him. I actually didn't try.... waiting. Haha. Same mistake you made on the spiders. I'll check it later. If it's faster I can hex it in. :UPDATE: Well it's faster by 12 frames to wait for him to pass but hex editing isn't really working. Keeps desyncing the next screen with the red sniper joe. But I also found another improvement anyway. In the the second screen, I use rush jet while facing to the right and he uses up energy after I jump on him until I make it to the next screen transition. This energy can be used in the rain section to save a few frames, so it's going to be faster to make sure Mega Man is facing to the left when he calls Rush Jet so the jet flies into the wall and disappears sooner to conserve energy. So pretty much have to redo the whole level, but at least we have the route laid out and the benchmark.

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