4. Use an emulator that isn't abandoned and actually functions correctly.
natt wrote:
If the efforts of the Bizhawk team have been insufficient thus far, then there's nothing else I can do. You can lead an ass to water, but you can't make it drink.
zeromus wrote:
Those tools which could be ported to bizhawk for a cigarette butt bounty by a lua hobo sure do make it more enjoyable to produce a desyncing movie
I'm just not getting where this hostile tone has just suddenly come from. In this topic at least?
There are obvious benefits to using Bizhawk. I'm sure it will completely obsolete Gens for all of it many benefits, and I'm thrilled what the efforts of the Bizhawk team have produced. It's great!
However right now; Gens has scripts that so easy to use that a person computer savy lacking as my self can use them no issue. Tools vital for the level Sonic running has reached.
Great on your way of calling me an ass and all that; but you're probably right as half of the benefits that you listed of Bizhawk are, whilst surely wondrous, way over my head. Not everyone who TAS's is also a coder. I've heard of C#, is my knowledge of what C# is for example.
I mean I'm just baffled. I can believe I'm having an argument with fucking natt of all people. As has been said, he's usually spot on in alot of things; and is some one in my long time posting on the forum is some one I respect as one of the pillars of the community here.
For him to start posting in such a condescending dismissive way in a topic that has a bunch of relative newbies in it, newbies that are finding a lot of new tech in such a small amount of time, is weird to me.
And then for zeromust follow up with a comment which seem to basically say; 'the code is easy to port over why don't you do it?' Whilst having a title of; Editor / Emulator coder?
I mean don't get me wrong; no one has any responsibilities here; TASing and all of its related features are at the end of the day just a hobby. You can do what ever you want.
I just find it very counter productive for respected members of the community to come into a topic that has relative newbies, including some one so new to the forums it has yet to be a month, and post something that is the equivalent of; 'lol get new tech n00bs'
I mean I feel like a moron for going so off topic on this, but its a response to fucking natt. natt is, or was tasing back in the day.
Please stop blaming the people/emulator only for a movie desyncs for a In-game lag frame event...
It would be better if this discussion ends here or you guys can continue on irc or Off topic, this post is only for topics about S3K.
I know BizHawk is better and bla bla, I don't discuss this. but idk why people start blaming Gens and us seeing a MUPEN movie has recently published seeing this emulator is banned?, what about this?
So please stop talking bullshit here, we prefer Sonic TASes in a old emulator but optimised as hell instead a suboptimal Sonic TAS in BizHawk
I don't know about you guys but I'm still waiting for a new Knuckles Chaotix run which can only be tased in gens. It's not that big of a deal... for now at least.
I don't think so. Bizhawk is literally bristling with tools, plus the lua extensibility, plus the C# extensibility (that requires recompiling, but it's way easier than building Gens and IToolForm has a lot of stuff built in).
Does it run on Linux with Lua support? Because last time I tried, the greens core did not work on Linux under mono or Wine, and the Lua support did not work either.
When it does work on Linux, I will port the Sonic tools myself.
natt wrote:
Plus the fact that the core has zero savestate determinism issues.
The issue is not the emulator. Let me repeat that:
[B] The issue is not the emulator.[/b]
I can point to the specific game code which causes the desynchs when you do input splices, and I can explain why it causes a desynch and why it is not related to Emulation inaccuracies.
I can explain (and have, just a couple posts above) what is causing the spurious jumps at the end of inputs. And guess what? It is a lua script, NOT the emulator.
I redone 50% of HCZ 2 and saved 4 frames after all, MGZ 1 don't desync.
MGZ 2, desync at the begining because the inputs start 1 frame before the level starts, so I added 1 extra frame with the editor.
But sadly MGZ2 desync again at frame 73070 in the floating platform, unlike HCZ2 Sonic got the desync because the positions of him changed a little, but Tails positions still fine.
Maybe as marzo says this can be fixed by a small pause to try manipulate the platform movement (I guess). Pressing "Pause" "wait frame" "Pause".
It's you turn Kaan, I hope you have luck :P, pay attentions to the possitions with Sonic hud this is very useful to keep the movie in sync. but seeing marzo explanation above the balloons maybe cause desyncs in CNZ too.
gmv file
Never use input slice, maybe you could explain me with a quick guide? That would help me
I was able to get Sonic to sync by getting him to reach a Tails carry that happened 5 seconds later. Unfortunately some rotating platforms caused Tails to desync followed by Sonic on a failed spindash on a steep slope.
What I'm think about doing is delay the start by another frame or 2.
As for the Carnival night balloons. We'll see what happens.
Input splicing. I might give you a guide on that later. I don't have the time to explain it right now.
Phew, this resync stuff is rough; Feel like I'm holding my breath in panic every time I open this topic now.... like I'm a teenager opening exam results again!
Fingers crossed for you both (all?) that you get it to work out.
Ha; at the very least Evil3D is Evil3Ding and saving new frames regardless.
Thanks Paused, I hope we can resync the movie soon as possible and start LBZ.
But hey, that does not mean I can't keep trying things, here is a Hidden Palace test run
Link to video
From what've observed we can't really manipulate platform cycles by pausing. Maybe if they're offscreen you can but I doubt it.
By editing some inputs (none of those edits were delays btw) I was able to get about 30 seconds ahead from where you left off. Sonic and Tails end up desyncing after they hit the diagonal yellow spring.
I would've gotten further by now but I haven't really been too into doing this lately. I need to take a break before I can go on. Here's the gmv of my current progress in case you want to continue from where I left off during that time.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/443928960/Evil_3D-TheYogWog-kaan55-S3K-ST-ringattack.gmv
Good luck with resyncing. I hope we can continue from LBZ1 soon too.
Paused wrote:
Phew, this resync stuff is rough; Feel like I'm holding my breath in panic every time I open this topic now.... like I'm a teenager opening exam results again!
Fingers crossed for you both (all?) that you get it to work out.
Ha; at the very least Evil3D is Evil3Ding and saving new frames regardless.
Yeah the resyncing is not easy and to be honest I'm a little nervous. Especially about Carnival Night. That might be the hardest zone out of all of these to sync.
Icecap will probably be easy to sync though. There's very little randomness we have to worry about in that zone.
I am a little exhausted frankly, I can't resync the levels without redoing most segments of the ACTs because Sonic and Tails always interact with object that have frame rules (and tested on my part resynchronizing too)
What do you think kaan honestly? We can note this as possible improvements and redo the run from scratch in a future, After all in a speedrun as time passes, improvements are always found and the current published movie ends up being "old" and needs a update (see ICZ skip by dmtm), It's sad that S3K are not as friendly resynchronizing as Sonic 2, I would like to see the opinion of theyogwog too.
I have the backup of the original movie, if you're agree I can contunie with LBZ
A part of me wants to resync the whole thing to show off those AIZ2 knuckles rings. Another part of me doesn't want to do that because resyncing levels is kind of a pain.
Like you said yourself there's no rush to tasing so maybe we should both take a break and think about this.
Also I'm not done trying yet. Since we got pretty far in Marble Garden I'm gonna attempt to finish Act 2 later to see what happens with Carnival Night. If that turns out poorly I'd say we should go with your idea.
Okay, let's wait what happen in MGZ2, if CNZ is very unfriendly maybe I can redo it, the bad side is: this levels required +10-25 hours to do it ( if I remember CNZ1 takes me 14 hrs and CNZ2 nearby 20 hrs in total time in TAS sessions), unlike an any% run the levels have a duration of +3 min In-game time for TASing.
I know we have time, but this is very mental-exhaustive, It may take longer or double to redo CNZ this time
I mean whether or not you want to redo CNZ that's your call. I just simply want to finish MGZ2 to see what happens with the rest of the run.
I looked more into resyncing the run not too long ago. I may have gotten Sonic back in sync for the rest of the MGZ2 and I see potential setup for getting Tails to sync too. I just need to redo like 10 seconds of his input which I'll do sometime later.
Yeah, resynching S3&K can get pretty tedious at times, especially when you find a small improvement early on. Imagine someone finding a 1-frame improvement in AIZ1 when the run has hit the workbench...
When it happened to me, I almost felt like telling the guy that I would make him a full coauthor if he spliced the improvement and resynched the movie.
And I know how much worse it is for you guys: a lot of the changes in recent S3&K TASes had the effect of making the run more resilient against desynchs on several annoying levels, but early on (and in the Sonic 100% TAS), I was pretty much in the same boat as you guys (but with slightly worse tools, as the HUD was nowhere near as good).
Hey. Glad I managed to avoid the miniature-shitstorm. It was a shitposty comment, not really worth getting too butthurt over. You and kaan55 are doing great things, software concerns beyond your control notwithstanding.
More on point, you might not like what I have to say, nor do I like having to say it, but... well, I personally don't agree with going forward without the rings. I always told myself when I was TASing KTE's run, that if ever I missed a ring, I would go back for it. Now I know that's just me, and I don't necessarily expect you guys to abide by the same credo, but whether or not you do, the same rule applies. That is, that a ring attack that fails to collect all possible rings, fails to achieve its primary goal.
So, that makes it less likely to be considered acceptable for publication here on TASVideos. Possible time improvements are one thing; known ring improvements are, perhaps, another. Although, now that there's a precedent for this category of runs established by my own RA, that might not be so much of a concern. But then again, given TAS tools and the benefits the TAS approach affords, this is still a pretty big deal, technically. Plus, especially since the rings were missed on the very first level, and there are several of them, it just looks bad.
Having said that, however, do I realistically think the run would get rejected on the basis of not having collected those rings, if it were submitted without having collected them? Probably not, or at least I would hope not. But that's up to whoever judges the run to decide, of course. And of course, it really comes down to you, Evil_3D, and what you want to do, as you're the one entering all of the inputs (or most of them, so far), and so it's fundamentally your run and your decision. And I can definitely understand if you choose not go back and redo things, and I'll continue supporting you in any case.
But I would encourage you (and kaan55) to collect them, if at all possible, by any means necessary. Keep in mind, we've got the rest of the rings on lock-down, so in theory this will be the only such instance in which this type of thing will happen for the entire rest of the run. And not to trivialize the time and effort it would take to redo things, because it would take a lot of each, but, I think if you did do it you'd find that it's a lot different than the first time, so not as tedious and mundane as it may seem. And also a lot easier and less time consuming than the first time. And finally, odds are you'd actually end up doing it better (faster) than ever.
And assuming you restart from CNZ, that's "only" 2 levels - it could be worse. And for what it's worth, I remember CNZ from my run as being one of if not the easiest and quickest levels to TAS, largely because of the straight, smooth floors there.
I regret not being able to offer more assistance in terms of actually entering inputs. I'm rusty, and even when I was at my best, my best was still somewhat below the level Evil_3D and this run in general are at, as evidenced by the MGZ comparison. But, using the existing run as a guide or something to compete against might give me the edge I need to get my inputs up to par. And I do have a little bit of free time coming up, next weekend - enough to devote 24+ hours to TASing and maybe, therefore, to complete CNZ. I would be willing and should be able to have a go at it, anyway, if you guys could get to there by then.
TL;DR: I understand if you choose to forgo the rings, but I would encourage you not to do so because reasons. If it helps, I could try redoing CNZ, possibly.
Thank you for your words of sympathy marzo. It means a lot. Just out of curiosity, if you had the time would you be willing to help us?
I hate to say it but TheYogWog is right. It would be best if we if we didn't forgo those rings.
TheYogWog wrote:
I do have a little bit of free time coming up, next weekend - enough to devote 24+ hours to TASing and maybe, therefore, to complete CNZ. I would be willing and should be able to have a go at it, anyway, if you guys could get to there by then.
That would be very nice actually. If you could do CNZ that would certainly ease a lot of the stress we would have to deal with resyncing the run.
Next weekend? You mean like a week from now? There's only like 60% MGZ2 left (I'm judging this with the ingame timer). We should easily be able to finish it by then.
I'm gonna see how much more of MGZ2 I can sync.
As some one who is just a viewer rather than some one who is/was a TAS'er of the game, I'll throw my 2 cents in...
Ideally yes, go back and resync/redo the run and get the currently known max rings. However, at this point I'd rather have a run that is finished with known improvements than this be dropped.
Back when yogwog did his max rings run, I thought we'd never see someone doing that again... but happily a few years later it inspired a new set of TAS'ers to do what you're doing today.
So I'd rather the current wip upto LB be finished, with known improvements listed. That way, if you guys don't do a redo yourselves, another generation may.
But I realize I'm being very pessimistic in this approach; just assuming motivation will die if it's redone from near scratch. I don't know if Evil3D would loose his incredible momentum if this happened.
I guess in a variation of, "don't let perfect be the enemy of the good"... Im saying "dont let perfect now, be enemy of the perfect later."
I don't really disagree with any of Yogwogs points at all really though. I realise the choice to not get the rings opens up a potential can of worms of a future submission collecting even 1 extra ring and being 10 minutes slower still obsoleting your work.
So... yeah; dunno if there is a right answer; but I'll support you what ever way you go.
I meditate and analyze carefully reading all your comments guys and thanks for the support and comprehension, I chose to redo CNZ and ICZ if necessary, then kaan when you finish MGZ2 give me the gmv to start.
I remember my S2K ring attack, I said exactly the same as yogwog, I even found the way to get the perfect bonus in Mystic Cave 2, Oil Ocean 2 and Metropolis 2 (these last 2 thanks to Zurggriff) and some rings in Casino Night 2. Before they seemed impossible to collect for Knuckles but fortunately no longer.
TheYogWog wrote:
But, using the existing run as a guide or something to compete against might give me the edge I need to get my inputs up to par. And I do have a little bit of free time coming up, next weekend - enough to devote 24+ hours to TASing and maybe, therefore, to complete CNZ
Seeing that I decided to redo CNZ would you be interested in trying another level in particular to remove the rust? Maybe Lava reef, Sky Sanctuary, Death egg or whatever you want, would be very interesting / fun to see and would serve us in the future
After all while kaan is ending with MGZ2, I am doing some testruns in some zones, currently I made one in Hidden palace
Next weekend? You mean like a week from now? There's only like 60% MGZ2 left (I'm judging this with the ingame timer). We should easily be able to finish it by then.
Yes. Cool.
Unless for some reason Evil_3D prefers to do it. I don't particularly care that much, either way. I just thought I'd offer. I mean I've always wanted to help out in such a way as this, but I wasn't, am not, and may never be "fit for purpose," for a variety of reasons. But since he offered co-authorship, I feel it's incumbent upon me to at least try, given that now might just be the perfect, and only, opportunity. And who knows, if it goes well that might open the doorway for me to provide additional help in the future.
Looks like it might be time to dust off the old gaming PC, a budget rig I built in 2012, which mostly turned out to be a $850 Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles machine. An investment that continues paying dividends. Even for lack of a blast-capable processor, which for some mysterious reason I've never been able to find in-stock anywhere. And believe me, I checked; I checked with my local BestBuy on a daily basis for years. But eventually, those bastards banned me from the store, for reasons that also remain a mystery to me.
I do have one theory... but I don't have time to explain, by now GeekSquad has triangulated my GPS coordinates, and Craig from computing will be here any minute to bring me back to corporate headquarters, and... it doesn't matter, he'll never take me alive, no matter who he shapeshifts into. You reading this, Craig? I know you are. Just try imitating my close friends and family supposedly worrying about my allegedly deteriorating mental health, again. See what happens! Cocks shotgun.
*Ahem.*
Well, that was quite the digression. Forget I said that. It was totally all a joke. Yes... a joke...
Evil_3D wrote:
Seeing that I decided to redo CNZ would you be interested in trying another level in particular to remove the rust? Maybe Lava reef, Sky Sanctuary, Death egg or whatever you want, would be very interesting / fun to see and would serve us in the future
Sure, no problem bud. I'm happy you've chosen the more difficult, but more rewarding path (i.e. getting the rings). And a little relieved not to have the pressure on myself of learning how to TAS better than ever by this time next week. I suppose if I really wanted to, I could practice against any one of your levels, not just CNZ, and hone my skills all the same but more gradually. Which maybe a more practical solution.
That's the spirit Evil! I know it's not easy for you but I'm glad you chose to redo those levels.
I haven't actually been able to much with MGZ2 today due to irl stuff. I only managed to sync another 10-15 seconds of the level. Both Sonic and Tails end up deyncing yet again for reasons I haven't figured out yet. Hopefully I'll be able to fix it with more input editing.
TheYogWog wrote:
I do have one theory... but I don't have time to explain, by now GeekSquad has triangulated my GPS coordinates, and Craig from computing will be here any minute to bring me back to corporate headquarters, and... it doesn't matter, he'll never take me alive, no matter who he shapeshifts into. You reading this, Craig? I know you are. Just try imitating my close friends and family supposedly worrying about my allegedly deteriorating mental health, again. See what happens! Cocks shotgun.
*Ahem.*
Well, that was quite the digression. Forget I said that. It was totally all a joke. Yes... a joke...
Hahahahaha. That's funny. Wanna know what else is funny? I was Craig this whole time. I've been following your every move plotting your demise. You better start running because I'm coming after you.
Here's my progress for today. It turned out that I missed a ring so I had to go back a bit to fix that error. In doing that another 8-12ish seconds of the level resynced.
Both Sonic and Tails ended up desyncing again (it happens some time after the 2 minute mark) except this time I couldn't figure out how to fix it. I can't exactly tell what went wrong and I'd probably have to try out dozens, maybe hundreds of input combinations before I find one that resyncs both Sonic and Tails.
This means that we're likely going to have to redo the rest of the level. There's a chance that I could set up a resync if either of us can get to the area shown below.
So do you want to do it or should I? I made a link to the gmv in case you want to do it.
I can of course, but seeing the image you are very closely of Knuckles path, maybe with a bit of luck from the Knuckles boss cutscene the whole level can be resync again if you can adjust the possitions when eggman dessapear and ST stop on the left side of the screen. If not, I can redo the rest
I recorded new AIZ2 too again, but with Tails point of view now, for who want to see how Tails grab Knuckles rings.
Link to video
I think you may have misinterpreted my text. The level desynced here.
I may be able to continue resyncing the level after all. I was able to get Tails to sync with one of my edits. This means that I might be able to make Sonic sync using a Tails carry.
I noticed that my progress with this has been slow because I've been a bit preoccupied with other stuff lately. I don't know if I'll be able to finish MGZ2 in a reasonable amount of time. If this keeps up I may just stop altogether.
So do you want to do it or should I? I made a link to the gmv in case you want to do it.
I may be able to continue resyncing the level after all. I was able to get Tails to sync with one of my edits. This means that I might be able to make Sonic sync using a Tails carry.
I noticed that my progress with this has been slow because I've been a bit preoccupied with other stuff lately. I don't know if I'll be able to finish MGZ2 in a reasonable amount of time. If this keeps up I may just stop altogether.
