I'm sorry if this has been posted, but could this way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTuAlx4EdZw be used by Sonic and Tails to bypass Act 2? I think it could lead to a little improvement. Sorry if I'm wrong or if this has already been discussed.
Joined: 10/6/2011
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Zenon wrote:
This sounds so intriguing! I can't wait *o*
Wanna tell you by secret, it’s even not the fastest way to skip that act 1 mini boss, at least for Amy.
See how we made it together with Qwerty → link
Sadly, Amy cannot take Sonic’s route in act 1.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Does anyone know a way of getting all 6 rings from all 3 of the ring capsules in FBZ1? I feel pretty confident I can conclusively say whether or not most of the rest of the rings in the game can be obtained in a Knuckles ring run, but those are among the few that I'm unable to account for.
I'm still not sure/don't remember if or what the consensus was about the validity of a ring attack-speedrun for a goal in a TAS for this game. I know the Sonic 2 "perfect bonus" run was rejected, even though it was well received, and I understand why, but S3&K doesn't even have a tangible in-game reward for collecting all the rings. I think it's questionable whether you guys would allow it, but if it was done right, and well, I don't see why not. And I believe it's a nice solution to the aspect of S3K runs zipping through much of the core content of the game, which some people don't always like, while still being less arbitrary and difficult to define than something like a glitchless run.
These are the guidelines for it that I'd propose:
-First and foremost, aims to obtain the maximum number of rings (normal + monitor) possible as Knuckles (or whatever character is selected)
-Secondly, aims to do so in the least amount of time required
-Thus, the only way the movie could be obsoleted is if somebody did another recording with either more rings regardless of time, or equal rings in less time
-Since it's a full, single segment playthrough and the only thing that ultimately matters is total rings collected by the end of the game, progress should be measured in terms of rings per zone; rings per act is an irrelevant figure, and it's also ambiguous because there are some levels (AIZ, ICZ) where certain rings overlap and can be collected in either act
-Ignores special and bonus stages, except for rare instances when it's necessary to enter and immediately exit one in order to reset a boundry, and excludes from the eligible ring count for the run any rings that can be obtained through them (RA's including giant rings and/or transformations should be a separate category for everyone, due to drastic ramifications on the overall nature of the gameplay; except maybe Sonic, since he can still use shield jumps without transforming)
-Uses glitches to get more rings, faster
-Uses in-game timing, if possible
I made the following as a demo and/or a proof of concept, to show what that might look like. There should be a .gmv in my user movies, otherwise here:
http://www.filedropper.com/kteaizratasdemoyogwogLink to video
I've no doubt there's still optimizations that can be made, and I messed up in a few spots, like hitting the sign post at the mini-boss. I planned to use the invincibility to help get into Sonic's area but by the time I discovered that the monitor disappeared when I reset the boundry, I had already recorded half the second act - I planned then, to sacrifice my shield as a way to get momentary invulnerability, which I thought was needed to get past the spikes. I wasn't expecting to get up there the way I did, and in fact after that I re-did the entire second act up to that point but without hitting the sign post, but I got stuck trying to repeat that jump to get up there a second time so I ended up just going with the first version. I also used an inferior method of triggering the zip in the second act, apparently there's a way to just jump through the spikes that I didn't find out about until after I'd completed the whole video. Anyway, it's just a demo and I did my best. Thoughts?
This almost passed me by.
Loved the video, and it is a noticeable improvement over your old ILs in gameplay terms. The whole 'Zone totals only, as it can be quicker to return to Act1' trick was new and very entertaining to me.
Your goal choice makes sense to me, but I too can see it getting questioned to hell and back come submission time. But the big difference I personally can see between this and the Sonic 2 "perfect bonus" run is you're (I assume) going to be going through the whole game. I also could not agree more about the zipping though the whole level point you make.
As for your "Does anyone know a way of getting all 6 rings from all 3 of the ring capsules in FBZ1?" It took me a few moments to realize what you were talking about, so if you do not mind I'll post your IL of the level to try and get you a response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdorCVlrrE4
(I don't suppose the capsules are closed with the rings you missed in them if you return in Act 2 having beaten Act1 are they? Assuming you can even do that in FB?)
Anyway I love this goal and hope it gets more attention like it deserves. Good luck man.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Oh wow, how could I miss this?
TheYogWog, I love your run, you certainly need to go further with it :)
It’s certainly not perfectly optimized (I’m sure I could improve it), and even if it were perfectly optimized, I am still not sure it could be accepted, but such kind of runs is really very entertaining, and should be sometimes done «just for fun» :)
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
S3&K doesn't even have a tangible in-game reward for collecting all the rings. I think it's questionable whether you guys would allow it, but if it was done right, and well, I don't see why not.
I think max ring runs are entertaining, and they serve to show off much more of the games than you usually see. This is what the 100% category usually does for other games. Sonic games have the "all emeralds" category (which is also fun), but unlike normal 100% categories, that one does not show off much more of the game than one usually sees. So an all rings category would fill a hole in the categories for Sonic TASes.
And I believe it's a nice solution to the aspect of S3K runs zipping through much of the core content of the game, which some people don't always like, while still being less arbitrary and difficult to define than something like a glitchless run.
Actually, I still think a glitchless run would be a good idea. And I don't think it needs to be that hard to define. How about this:
Does not take shortcuts by entering solid objects
As a part of normal gameplay the character is continuously ejected from the floor he's standing on and walls he runs into, etc. And the rule above allows that. You're allowed to enter a solid object as long as that does not form a shortcut, i.e. as long as there is a shorter path between where you enter and exit the solid area that does not go through said area.
That rule would get rid of all zipping as well as the marring clipping through the ground thing near the end of the "no zips" TAS. And I think it closely reflects what people have in mind when thinking of a glitchless run. It is also precise enough that it should be possible to apply objectively.
amaurea, your solution to the no-zips is pretty close (identical?) to my "does not enter a solid object, then leave through a different side of the same object".
I think zips/shortcuts should be allowed in a max-ring run, though. Especially because they'll increase the number of rings that can be collected.
ais523: Yes, they're pretty similar. They both have a minor weakness which I didn't think of originally: I think it is possible to get pushed into the ground, zip along the ground, and then exit upwards (by jumping, I guess). In that case, one would be exiting from the same side one entered, and would not be taking a shortcut distance-wise. So it would be allowed. If shortcut were defined time-wise it would be disallowed, but that would be a much more vague definition.
Personally I would like to see both a glitchless and glitchy max ring TAS and I'm not sure which one I would anticipate the most. I think both should have a place on tasvideos if somebody makes them.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
amaurea wrote:
Personally I would like to see both a glitchless and glitchy max ring TAS and I'm not sure which one I would anticipate the most. I think both should have a place on tasvideos if somebody makes them.
Agree. Ring attacks are a lot harder to optimize than plain speedruns, but their paradox is that even a poorly optimized ring attack shows more beautiful tool-assisted acrobatics than optimized speedruns.
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
Thanks all. In my last post the reason some of you didn't see it is because I accidentally edited it when I probably should have just made a new post (on some forums people get buttmad if you double post so I wasn't sure, oh well)
Paused wrote:
so if you do not mind I'll post your IL of the level to try and get you a response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdorCVlrrE4
(I don't suppose the capsules are closed with the rings you missed in them if you return in Act 2 having beaten Act1 are they? Assuming you can even do that in FB?)
Sorry, but what's an IL? Thanks for sharing a link to that video, it would really help if someone knew a way to get all of the rings there. And no, I don't believe you can return to Act 1 in FBZ.
amaurea wrote:
Personally I would like to see both a glitchless and glitchy max ring TAS and I'm not sure which one I would anticipate the most. I think both should have a place on tasvideos if somebody makes them.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree about a glitchless ring run. When I first started playing around with the idea myself, I felt the same as you. But as I progressed through the levels it became clear there's no place for glitchless in this type of playthrough. Take LRZ2, for example: what if you couldn't glitch through any of the doors here, which are normally meant to be opened from hitting a switch on the opposite side? Generally, not using glitches in a ring run means 1. you'll get less rings that are even possible to obtain in the first place and 2. those that are possible, frequently require backtracking through significant portions of the level. The difference is illustrated in the videos below, my more recent LRZ2 that does use glitches and my very early MGZ1 that doesn't.
Link to videoLink to video
Alternatively, consider this: what if I didn't use glitches in the video in my last post, AIZ? I would have had to play through KTE's portion of the level up to the check point to reset the boundary, then backtrack to the beginning to get into Sonic's area, and upon finishing that, backtrack back through there to get back to KTE's area, and then play all the way through that route yet again in order to finish the level.
The crux of the issue of glitches in a straight up speedrun in Sonic, is that they tend to "skip" much of the game's content. But in a ring attack speedrun, using glitches actually adds more content to the run. Due to the nature of the goal, players have to go through much of the level in any case to get the rings, so in a way it's even more pedantic than in a normal speedrun to still refuse utilizing glitches to accomplish that. Plus I think it's technically more impressive to watch because it shows a deeper knowledge of how the game works.
feeuzz22 wrote:
a "not really optimized" and very old try in AIZ1 (S+T) (glitchless for this one).
Nice, I just want to say I think S+T is definitely the ultimate team for RA speedruns. You get the full, longest campaign and with Tails help there's very few areas Sonic can't get into. Not to mention how much time it saves having them be able to get different rings separately at the same time. You could even include giant rings in the run if you started from a save state or whatever, since it's Sonic. But personally I will stick to KTE as I tried playing as them once and found it way too difficult to control them both for now.
Thanks for the encouragement everyone, since you guys liked the demo I have decided to convert it into a WIP for a full game run.
I just finished revising Act 2. All the major errors from before should be corrected now, and I found a way to get the last 3 rings at the end which means 100% collection of rings in Angel Island Zone.
I'm not sure if or when I'll complete this project except that it's going to be a long time from now. Would it be ok if I continue to post updates here periodically, and also any questions I have as they arise? I usually try to do my own research but sometimes that's not helpful enough.
Link to videoWST wrote:
TheYogWog,
I sent you a private message many days ago. Could you please check your inbox?
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
Of course, it’s not just «ok», but a great news that you are going to turn this into a complete project. I’m deeply impressed by your ring attacks, and they are certainly ones of the best ring attacks I’ve ever seen (but yeah, I enjoyed all the other ring attacks not much less).
The only one thing, which, I beleive, could be improved in this your last run, is when you exit the last tube. It is possible to cancel being thrown high up after it, but I have no idea how to do it (because I usually TAS Amy, and it’s trivial to do with her, unlike with Knuckles). But, as I seen in Qwerty’s, LTRP’s and feeuzz’s runs, they know how to perform it. I also noticed that you strive to avoid braking on objects, but if you do, it takes quite visibilly much time. Actually, you can brake on the objects faster. The idea is: to spindash on the object, you need to have X speed = 0. Regular braking allows to reach such a speed only in the case when your X speed is k*128 (this is the best case scenario). But this happens seldom (unless you know how to force it). So, in the most cases the easiest way to brake on objects quicker is (in assumption that you are moving to the right side):
1. Bring your speed below 128
2. Pressing [<>] forces your speed to exactly 128
3. Pressing [<v][vA][vB][vC][vA][vB][vC] charges the spindash
As far as I understand it, you can press left and down at the same time, because the game performs braking earlier than checking for ability to make a spin dash.
(upd) just noticed that you do not jump in the loops. It’s a required part of making optimized runs, because it helps to gain a lot higher speed. The three most commonly used jumps in the loops are up-loop jump, down-loop jump and out-loop jump. Consider reading about them and abusing them for additional acceleration. :)
(upd2) by the way, it’s possible to enter the tubes without loosing speed, but I have experience doing this only with Amy. Apparently, it’s a lot easier to pull off with Amy than with the other characters.
TheYogWog wrote:
Apologies, hadn't noticed.
No problem, got your reply now, I will send you mine soon
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
I just finished revising Act 2. All the major errors from before should be corrected now, and I found a way to get the last 3 rings at the end which means 100% collection of rings in Angel Island Zone.
That ground entrance; nice work, as far as I know, you are the first one to find out Knuckles can go through regular floors by gliding at the right frame. In some quick tests, it seems that the ground must not be very thick (except if you gather some very high vertical speed), which limits applicability; I couldn't find any spots by looking at maps that would be helpful in a speedrun, but I am sure there are many that are useful for ring runs.
Anyway, nice work.
WST, thanks, that is a great tip about stopping on objects, and I probably would've kept going without even knowing about it if you hadn't said anything. It should be very useful, indeed. Loop jumping is one of those things, I know what it's about, but it fell by the wayside of things I learned to do well, as I was focusing on other aspects of the run. Not that that's any excuse not to include it in a run which I hope to have a fighting chance of being published here. I probably could have benefited from using it in several places so far, and I definitely need to learn how to use it better. One thing that would help a lot with that, which I've been meaning to ask about anyway, is this: even though I've been using marzojr's LUA HUD, and couldn't TAS nearly as well without it, I still get confused about what each of the 6 number fields at the bottom are supposed to represent. Sorry, but could somebody please just clarify this for me?
Also, I think it may be worth noting one thing I've found about ring attacking, which maybe isn't readily apparent from a purely speed running perspective, is that in certain situations striving for max speed isn't necessarily the best solution. In general, moving too fast when there are rings following you is a good way to get them loaded out of memory where they simply disappear and can no longer be collected. Loop jump is especially good for causing this issue, as it not only increases your speed (so you risk out running them) but it also changes the trajectory of any rings that are following you (so that they might miss hitting you if they do get close enough, and instead get flung out of memory in some other direction). In those types of situations, I guess it becomes a question of whether it's ultimately quicker to let the lightning shield pull the rings towards you or just get the rings yourself. Admittedly, I'm not sure I tested this very thoroughly when it has occurred so far, but I imagine the difference is minimal anyway and that just seems like more of an optimization issue that would be best addressed in subsequent playthroughs.
More specifically, for example in the bottom tube along KTE's path in the video, the first time I enter it, I have to actually slow down and wait for a few frames because otherwise he would exit the tube before the breakable ground at the end finished loading -- which is all well and good, except that it will then obstruct my path on the return trip, and result in death by crushing if I try to jump through the wall there. And I'm not sure if you guys are aware, I don't see why you would be since in a typical speedrun there is no reason to go backwards up the set of 3-loops on KTE's path, but the pathswapper for the second loop is "picky", and often it will send you floating off in the opposite direction. I'm not sure what causes it but not going too fast and staying in a ball seemed to be only reliable way of staying on track.
So, those are some things I thought you guys might be interested in knowing in case you didn't already. But yes, as I said I do need to work on loop jumping and thanks again WST for being most helpful.
marzojr wrote:
nice work, as far as I know, you are the first one to find out Knuckles can go through regular floors by gliding at the right frame. In some quick tests, it seems that the ground must not be very thick (except if you gather some very high vertical speed),
Thanks, marzojr. Yes, you're correct that it only works with unusually thin floors for a regular jump. That spot where I jumped is the only place along the entire airship route where the floor is thin enough.
I think it's actually kinda spooky, tbh, the fact that just that 1 tile is not as thick as the rest of the ground there. I'm only half kidding when I say that I swear this game has an otherworldly, almost supernatural quality about its design at times. When it was as being made they couldn't possibly have known that 20 years later TASers might use this and other similarly unlikely exploits in their runs, yet that's what happened.
I suppose the same could be said for any exploit in any game, but whatever.
Joined: 10/6/2011
Posts: 1697
Location: RU · ID · AM
TheYogWog wrote:
even though I've been using marzojr's LUA HUD, and couldn't TAS nearly as well without it, I still get confused about what each of the 6 number fields at the bottom are supposed to represent. Sorry, but could somebody please just clarify this for me?
First row: X speed, Y speed, ground speed
Second row shows approximated values of the same things in assumption that you press jump button on the next frame
Also, my opinion is: when deciding if a ring attack TAS should be published or not, it should be considered a playaround, and slightly less optimization level should be allowed.
TheYogWog wrote:
So, those are some things I thought you guys might be interested in knowing in case you didn't already. But yes, as I said I do need to work on loop jumping and thanks again WST for being most helpful.
I suggest the algorithm like this:
1. Find the best point to make an up-loop jump
2. Find the best place to start rolling. Usually it’s somewhere near the top of the loop, when the slope angle changes it’s sign
3. Find the best place for down-loop jump.
4. Start rolling again
5. Find the best point to make out-loop jump
Depending on your desired optimization level, this algorithm may become more complex. For example, sometimes (especially in Sonic 2) you miss the best point to make the up-loop jump. Jumping on any frame does not accelerate you, only slows down. In Sonic 3, it’s unlikely to happen, but if it does, you will need to slightly align yourself before the loop (for example, by leaving 1 frame without D-pad input). The same can be said about the 2 other jumps, but down-loop jump and out-loop jumps are usually easier, because it’s enough to choose the proper frame to start rolling, to get the best position. Actually, Sonic 3 is the easiest of all Sonic games for loop acceleration, it’s just my opinion, because you need special positioning maneurs really seldom :)
TheYogWog wrote:
I think it's actually kinda spooky, tbh, the fact that just that 1 tile is not as thick as the rest of the ground there. I'm only half kidding when I say that I swear this game has an otherworldly, almost supernatural quality about its design at times. When it was as being made they couldn't possibly have known that 20 years later TASers might use this and other similarly unlikely exploits in their runs, yet that's what happened.
That’s a backdoor =D
S3&A [Amy amy%] improvement (with Evil_3D & kaan55) — currently in SPZ2
my TAS channel · If I ever come into your dream, I’ll be riding an eggship :)
