This IS a TAS site, but there's still talk about many more things than that. As I said, there is a forum for "other games" too, so why not hacks? Bisqwit obviously doesn't want hacks to be confused with real games. I do think that there would a lot more talk about hacks if they had their own subforum.
Guess you missed the question K, did you or did you not agree with this:
"It's not like the console forums are so super-busy that having the extra 5 hack topics in them stifles traffic to the non-hacked game thread or make the forums so cluttered they're unreadable, etc."?
As for your question, reread every post I made in this thread, as well as asteron+anubis's, to get my opinion.
And just to repeat one other thing which is slightly unrelated and unimportant but whatever:
"I do think that there would a lot more talk about hacks if they had their own subforum."
"I think you're wrong about that. I don't think we'd see a huge (or even a noticable) increase in number of hack related topics no matter what rules Bisqwit added/removed."
I'm confused... Upthorn, you're saying there is no place to discuss hacks, but there is. If the hack runs in an SNES emulator, then you can talk about it in the SNES forum which makes perfect sense to me. Someone coming to the site looking for discussion about Super Demo World would know exactly where to look. More forums != good.
The NES/SNES/etc subforums are meant to contain discussion about TASes and TASing. If I would just like to share a hack with everyone, should I really put it there? That's what I did with the Zelda hack but I wasn't really happy about it.
asteron wrote:
I don't really see a hack as something entirely different from a published game from a TAS point of view.
As I already replied to this, what if you want to talk about a hack from a non-TAS point of view? And no, I don't think that there should be a place to discuss actual published games from a non-TAS point of view because they are familiar to everyone. Hacks, on the other hand have, have a lot to offer in terms of discussion: the quality of the hack (this includes level design, difficulty, etc.) and, well, the game itself. The hack topics are different from the normal game topics as you can clearly see. The most important thing is that most people don't know about many good hacks and it would be a crime to not make people aware of them.
Fabian wrote:
"It's not like the console forums are so super-busy that having the extra 5 hack topics in them stifles traffic to the non-hacked game thread or make the forums so cluttered they're unreadable, etc."?
No, I don't think they are cluttered. However this isn't really what I'm talking about, I'd like a subforum for general discussion of different hacks, not just for TASing. Besides, some of the hack topics just don't belong in the TASing forums because there is simply no talk about TASing in the threads, they are just about sharing the game with everyone else.
I'm sorry if I didn't make my point very clear at first, but I really did mean that we should just have one subforum for everything related to hacks. I see no problem with TASing-related hack topics and just general talk about hacks being in the same forum. As you said, there aren't really that many topics regarding hacks. I myself am very interested in new hacks and it's sad how many go unnoticed. I really don't think one forum would clutter the main forum page. Can you tell me why you are against it? Just because you don't think there is a need for it?
A lot of what you're saying makes it sound like you'd be better off at the actual hackedgamesdiscussion.org (I'm assuming there are sites for discussing/making/etc hacks though I'm not sure).
Your position makes a lot more sense than those who aren't interested in general hack discussion but just want to move the TAS hack topics out of the main forums, though. I can respect that. I think the choice between creating a forum for sharing and casually discussing new hacks vs having these topics (like we've been over, I'm not predicting a huge increase) in the current subforums is a very easy one. Creating new forums which would be very low in traffic when the current forums aren't remotely close to overloaded is something I very much disagree with, and exactly what Bisqwit tries to avoid, apparently (smart thinking Bisqwit!).
Joined: 5/23/2006
Posts: 361
Location: Washington, United States
I think having a separate hack forum would invite more people to introduce hacks that are not as well-done. With the current system, the only hacks discussed are particularly superb or sensational. With the introduction of a hack forum, users would be encouraged to discuss less-than-stellar (or even bad) hacks and whether they should be accepted or not. I also do not really see the need when hacks are better sorted by console. It would be as if we created a "Mario" forum for discussing Mario games... it's just not necessary.
Plus, I don't think we should create a separate location to discuss hacks based solely on an increase in hack discussion in the past week.
A lot of what you're saying makes it sound like you'd be better off at the actual hackedgamesdiscussion.org (I'm assuming there are sites for discussing/making/etc hacks though I'm not sure).
I enjoy THIS community and would like to share my enthusiasm for new hacks with the people of THIS board. If we should talk only about TASing, why are there topics like "Do you like beer?" and "World Jr. hockey" here? Why not just go to Something Awful instead? There are many sites dedicated to only to hacking, but I'm not really interested in the technical side, just the gameplay.
The reason why I would like to see a whole new forum for hacks is that people would be encouraged to start topics about hacks they like so that the rest of us can play them too. It's not easy to find good hacks when there are so many bad ones. As for the forum main page getting cluttered, I don't see it. I don't know if it's just my screen resolution or what but it looks to me like the page isn't even full, there are two "free slots" for subforums on the page so to speak. The change wouldn't bring a new scrollbar or anything like that. And if you don't like subforums with little traffic, why aren't you campaining for removing Awards or Tool-assisted laboratory?
What? Main page being cluttered? Couldn't care less about that, my screen resolution could easily support more forums too. That's a definite non-issue in my opinion.
The reason why I would like to see a whole new forum for hacks is that people would be encouraged to start topics about hacks they like so that the rest of us can play them too. It's not easy to find good hacks when there are so many bad ones.
Well ultimately this is not a hack site. This is a TAS site. The hacks that are discussed should be under consideration for a TAS.
You have a point that some hacks get vetted on the boards for TAS worthiness but even this somewhat applies to published games.
Its not like this board has non-TAS discussion forums for SNES or NES games.
Kyrsimys wrote:
Sooo.. why was it again that you're against this?
Im against it because I think the extra forum would be relatively unused. I'm not very passionate about this point though. I just believe it unnecessary.
This signature is much better than its previous version.
Its not like this board has non-TAS discussion forums for SNES or NES games.
This I already adressed.
Let me give you an example of how the hack forum would realte to TASing. Someone posted information about the Mario Adventure SMB3 hack on the board -> I got interested in it -> I played through it -> I got it accepted at the site -> I TASed it -> it got published. This is what I'd like to see more of.
But do you really think there are enough good hacks out there to warrant creating another forum?
This is a genuine question as I dont know much about hacks but I get the general impression that the quality of most is pretty poor and few would be good enough for consideration.
How about a compromise, there is a master list of games under consideration in every forum, why not create a new topic for a master list of hacks for consideration? That should accomplish your desire of people sharing cool hacks.
This signature is much better than its previous version.
But do you really think there are enough good hacks out there to warrant creating another forum?
That's a very good question. I do think there are many that are worth playing but are not very popular at the moment, especially older ones. Honestly I can't give you a definite answer, but I can tell you that the forum would have more action than for example the already mentioned Awards or Tool-assisted Lab.
asteron wrote:
How about a compromise, there is a master list of games under consideration in every forum, why not create a new topic for a master list of hacks?
This is a nice idea. If it turns out that many good hacks get listed, where would you discuss them?
K,
"Creating new forums which would be very low in traffic when the current forums aren't remotely close to overloaded is something I very much disagree with, and exactly what Bisqwit tries to avoid, apparently (smart thinking Bisqwit!)."
There are of course other reasons too. Reread all my posts in this thread if you want.
Edit: "This is a nice idea. If it turns out that many good hacks get listed, where would you discuss them?"
In the respective game's console forum (SDW would go into SNES, etc).
I see a hack forum have a terrible signal to noise ratio; assuming it is used much that is. The aren't that many good hacks, and there probably won't ever be that many good hacks. As they take a lot more time than almost everyone would wish to spend on them. Assuming they started getting a large amount of traffic we would see mostly: "Hey, I made this hack where I turned Mario's sprite into a lobster, and he is trying to reach the pot at the end to boil himself. Who wants to make a TAS?" and not a lot of good games.
Granted, that is possibility now too, but with the extra forum it would probably seem encouraged to people.
As for not wanting to clutter the current console forums. Have you read the subtitle for the "Games" grouping of forums?
"Work-in-progress threads, discussions about games, TAS movies, and other playing topics"
I dunno, but I think Hacks fit into either "discussions about games", or "other playing topics".
Currently the hacks which have been accepted are games which you might possible see on the shelf at a store. Some might need a little bit more bug fixing, or maybe re balance the difficulty, but the core game remains something people might actually spend money on. I don't think anyone minds someone creating topics for games like this, as it's almost like another game which you just have never previously heard of. However, I am pretty sure people would mind if everyone and their dog started posting their hacks which they spent 2 hours on while eating lunch. Something which I for see happening if we have a separate hack forum.
"Creating new forums which would be very low in traffic when the current forums aren't remotely close to overloaded is something I very much disagree with, and exactly what Bisqwit tries to avoid, apparently (smart thinking Bisqwit!)."
But why? I think it's a lot clearer when things are properly categorized. One could of course say that it's clearer to have NES hacks in the NES section but this is a matter of opinion. Personally I think that all hacks could easily fit into the same subforum as long as the console that the hack is for is clearly stated in the thread name. And I don't think Bisqwit said he is trying to avoid having low-traffic subforums, he just said that he doesn't want the main forum page to be cluttered with subforums (and this you don't care about). They are still two different things.
BoltR wrote:
Have you read the subtitle for the "Games" grouping of forums? "Work-in-progress threads, discussions about games, TAS movies, and other playing topics"
Actually I had not. I thought I had. Well this changes things a bit. Don't I feel stupid now (insert blushing smily).
As for the hack forum getting cluttered with crappy hacks, I don't really think this would happen. True, some hacks of questionable quality might be posted but I don't think anyone's going to start a thread for a hack that's not at least completely changed and somewhat well done (although it must be noted that the stupidity of some people has surprised me before). I would also like to see threads of hacks that are still in the making (but still of course playable, hype doesn't do anyone any good).
It seems I'm in the minority here, though, so I'll just let it go. In the end this is just a matter of opinion, so there's not much use arguing. Bisqwit will do as he sees fit and I will be happy with that. I don't think the current system is bad, I just think that it could be better.
If you really want to just create a topic for "Hacks for consideration". If what you think is true it should get lots of traffic and you will have the evidence to warrant creating a new forum.
This signature is much better than its previous version.
Well put, BoltR. I guess it mostly was me who inspired Upthorn on the idea of a separate forum; I was unpleasantly amused by the "(HACK)" markers at the end of the recent hack topics, especially since they were largely unneeded, and coined the suggestion on IRC.
But now that I read your post, I agree that it wasn't the best idea, although I still see some merit to it.
Also, good idea, asteron. Though it'll probably serve better as a wiki page.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
I was just wondering why a hack must be approve in an unofficial way ? or maybe it is official ?
What I mean is that I wonder why viewer can't decide if a hack makes it or not. I think that it would be better to let those who what a tas if it should be published or not.
I was just wondering why a hack must be approve in an unofficial way ? or maybe it is official ?
What I mean is that I wonder why viewer can't decide if a hack makes it or not. I think that it would be better to let those who what a tas if it should be published or not.
Usually this is up to the Admin, or Judges. Because they know best for the site.
