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Posted: 5/4/2009 5:04 AM
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Fredrik
Joined: 12/7/2005
Posts: 149
Location: Sweden
hero of the day wrote:
I've been crunching a lot of numbers lately for this game. I really think that the route I posted a few pages ago, might be the fastest for both in-game and realtime. Though some slight tweaks might need to be made.
Details?
Posted: 5/4/2009 5:34 AM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Well, I don't feel like finding my old post, so I'll just rewrite my route again. - Everything from landing site to phantoon would be the same as both published runs. If aiming for in-game time, it would probably be best to collect the missile pack near the charge beam (like in Cp's run), as well as the 2nd power bomb pack in the red brinstar area. - From phantoon, then run would then head straight to norfair. The spazer beam would be skipped, and Kraid will be put off until later. - Off the norfair elevator, go directly right. Ice beam will be collected later. High jump will never be collected. - Go through the hot rooms and get the speedbooster, probably needing to stop by the pipe bugs to refill energy. Go down and get the wave beam/ missile pack. Take the route to LN, as done in my movie. - With such low energy, some time sacrifice must be made. I remember Cp posting a way of clearing the pillar room without a shinespark. Will come in handy. - Navigate to ridley's area like usual. Pick up the power bomb expansion in the room before the pirate elites. - Kill elites, make sure you've got 10 super missiles. Make sure you have at least 10 power bombs before fighting ridley. 10 pbwavecombos = 12,000 damage to ridley. 10 super missiles = 6,000 damage to ridley. - Grab ridley's item drops, then get the e-tank. I was thinking that it would be best to skip this etank and grab the highjump etank instead, but the energy is needed now unfortunatly. - Head on out of LN. Before exiting upper norfair, go and grab the ice beam. - After getting back to brinstar, to right and kill kraid. The speed booster saves much time here. Grab kraid's etank, as well as the 4 power bomb drops that the drainer bugs leave behind. - Go to maridia, and do like I do in my run. Effort must be made to refill all the power bombs. - Once maridia is done, go to tourian. Hopefully, you've got 10 power bombs, or 15 (if aiming for in-game time). Use the pbwavecombo on mother brain. Charged ice/wave takes care of the rest. Time will be lost on the mother brain. 13 seconds slower than even my published run. I have added up all the time gained through out the route, and it is pretty substantial. Ridley alone saves a good chunk of time. Kraid with speed booster is big. Though I think that the in-game time would be pretty darn close to the current in-game route, I know for certain that this would beat the current realtime route.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Posted: 5/4/2009 6:51 AM
(Edited: 5/4/2009 7:04 AM)
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
How many E-tanks are you going to pick up? Suitless LN is pretty damned hard without lots. Saturn's RBO TAS teaser (which, granted, is extremely old now) had 7 E-ttanks and 1 reserve tank going into LN, not to mention something like 5 super missile and powerbomb packs each and the Hi-Jump boots. He Crystal Flashed twice (once at the entrance, and once right before Ridley). That sucks up a lot of ammo for the fight. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just having trouble imagining where you're going to get the resources en route to LN that would be needed to keep your health up without expending the ammo you need to quickly kill Ridley. Of course, if you're talking in-game time, there's always pause abuse. But who wants to see that? Edit: Re: moozooh's post below: duh, I'm stupid. Carry on.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 5/4/2009 6:57 AM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Eh, both routes fight Phantoon first, Gravity Suit is right there.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 5/4/2009 1:17 PM
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Saturn
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Cpadolf: I see. Even though the Ceres improvement isn't faster ingame time wise, I can perfectly understand that a faster clock display was worth it. Hero: Very interesting news. So the key to reach a lower ingame time with the new route would be a 3rd PB pack from the Red Brinstar hopper room. Actually a pretty obvious choice if you think of it now. The delay is pretty minimal (around half the time to get Spazer), and the time gains at Mother Brain would be even bigger than with charged Spazer/Wave/Ice shots, thanks to my 4-hit PB combo strategy. It will however be somewhat slower in realtime no matter what, since you would lose more than 11 seconds from the additional pickup screens/door transitions only, alongside the detour to get it and the lag of the PB to destroy the blocks, which in my rough test would result in a ~17,5 sec total delay. Too much to catch up at the MB fight. Now IIRC, our conclusion was that the Spazer route seen in your current realtime-oriented any% is improvable by ~20 seconds to just barely break the 0:24 mark, and the new 2-PB packs route would save 10 ingame seconds at most, then even with the additional 5-10 sec that could be saved through a 3rd PB pack, you would still end up with a ingame time of ~23:40 at best, while a optimized ingame route will easily allow a sub 23:30. So no, I don't think it will be reachable, and because of that, I would just go for lowest realtime by skipping the 3rd pack, as you would still end up with 0:23 anyway. If somebody plans to do a test run of the 3x PB pack route to know the time differences for sure, he is of course welcome to give it a try.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Posted: 5/12/2009 7:02 PM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
two questions: After entering the room with Flying bugs, before Torizo's room when you're going to get the Bomb, isn't it faster if you jump on the bugs and use the Enemy Knockback technique to reach Torizo's room? When first heading to Brinstar, in the room before the elevator room, instead of morphing through the enemies on the ground, isn't there a way to shoot it and use the bugs to cause damage and use the Enemy Knockback technique to go faster?
Posted: 5/12/2009 7:09 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1444)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
Actually it is slightly slower to travel by damageboosting than to just run and use armpumping, and after the damageboost you have to accelerate again which slows you down further.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 5/12/2009 7:35 PM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
Thanks. Could you tell me something about your last 100% run? How many time it took to be finished? One last question for now is about you actual project, how is it going? Your work is really fantastic, congratulations!
Posted: 5/12/2009 7:54 PM
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Cpadolf
Skilled player (1444)
Joined: 7/15/2007
Posts: 1468
Location: Sweden
SNES TASer of 2009 Rookie of 2008 SNES TASer of 2008
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Could you tell me something about your last 100% run? How many time it took to be finished?
You mean how long it took to finish? I think it was about half a year or so, divided in two months of barely working at all, two months of working at a decent pace and two months of intense work.
Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
One last question for now is about you actual project, how is it going?
Nothing has happened since the last report I made on the last page or so. I want to finish what else I'm working on at the moment and then go through the possible route change a little more closely before continuing, because I think if the new one actually does turn out to be faster the new realtime run should obsolete the ingame run as well.
Agare Bagare Kopparslagare
Posted: 5/12/2009 7:59 PM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
Ok, thanks!
Posted: 5/15/2009 9:00 PM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
I'd like some help with a specific trick that i've seen in some videos, but i didn't figure out how to do yet. It's the "Short Charge" that Satoru Suzuki does to shinespark. I've seen many diferent ways on google, but even trying hard i coudn't. It doesn't seem that hard to do when we see the video, so i imagine that there is a specific way to do it because he does it aways the same way. I don't know if this is the right place to ask this question but Satoru said that the TASers gave him some hint about the trick, so if anybody can help me i'd be thankfull. Id like to learn to do the trick without Tool Assistence.
Posted: 5/15/2009 9:03 PM
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Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2215)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
NES TAS of 2018 SNES TASer of 2017 SNES TAS of 2017 NES TAS of 2014 GBA TASer of 2011 GBA TAS of 2011 SNES TASer of 2010
http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html#ChargingShinesparkInShorterDistance I believe that should help you with it.
Posted: 5/15/2009 9:45 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
For non-tool-assisted play, the most useful takeaway here is to press forward without run for about two steps, then hold run. This gets you a shorter charge distance, though not nearly as short as you see in the TASes. However, since it doesn't require tapping the run button, it's much easier to pull off.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 5/15/2009 11:05 PM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
That's the way i do to shinespark, but there's a way to do it in a super short space. Like in the SDA video in 0:32 by Satoru Suzuki, it's a non-tool-assisted speedrun. He wrote: "Also, I'd like to thank catnap222 for helping with my submission and giving me some new techniques like the "Torizo quick kill" or the "Super short charge"..." This page http://www.metroid2002.com/3/boss_tricks_draygon_quick_kill.php says that the trick (Draygon quick kill) was discovered by Saturn and he does exactly the same trick that Satoru Suzuki used in his Speedrun. And the video demonstration of Draygon quick kill doesn't seem to be Tool Assisted. The site http://www.metroid2002.com teach the trick but the way they teach is a little confuse to me, and i tried but it didn't work.
Posted: 5/16/2009 2:15 AM
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NameSpoofer
Former player
Joined: 6/3/2008
Posts: 136
Location: US
To attain the ability to do it as the pros do un-assassited, it takes both understanding of how the charge works and a lot of pratice. I agree with you 100% that it is extremely difficult to learn how to do it just from reading text and looking at a picture of Samus in a running position. The way I learned was I took an SMV that contained the short charge (Any TAS Speedrun will do, excluding glitched any%), and watched what buttons were pressed on what frames, obviously watching 1 frame at a time utilizing the frame advance function. After you watch it a bazillion times, try to perform it yourself through frame advance first. Why? Don't ask me, it just seems to make it insanely easier if you can successfully do a super short charge through frame advance first, then attempt it in realtime, because you will know excatly how it works. Hopefully this will help.
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect. Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once My SM-RBO Current Project(s): 1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
Posted: 5/16/2009 2:51 AM
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Reeve
Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 748
Location: Brazil
Thanks everybody, i did it! I just tried a zilion times of diferent ways till i understand how it works. I had to press the run button four times and at the fourth i didn't release it, i don't know if everybody does it this way, but i worked for me. I really appreciate your help NameSpoofer, but only Zsnes works im my computer. I don't know how to configure Snes9x, when i try a game, the sound is a shit. Thanks anyway.[/quote]
Posted: 5/16/2009 3:26 AM
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xPi
Joined: 8/1/2008
Posts: 58
try charging a shinespark the bottom of the old tourian escape shaft (after clearing the blocks to the hallway that leads to the newer escape rooms) there is just enough room (door to door, both doors closed) to charge a shinespark with the late run button press and even more room when releasing run button a few times during first few of the animation loops I've noticed that the shinespark echoes don't show if you shinespark in mid air in any direction after pressing up
Posted: 6/8/2009 7:03 PM
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PKJC
Joined: 7/2/2004
Posts: 12
Someone over on nicodouga just posted a little collection of tricks, saying it is a video for people to watch before trying to play SM hacks. Some are useless but funny, and number 7 especially surprised me. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7276865 Alternate for those without a nico account: http://blog-imgs-27.fc2.com/t/o/k/tokkablog/play.html?id=sm7276865
Posted: 6/8/2009 7:35 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
PKJC wrote:
number 7 especially surprised me
Haha, so it was possible after all! Excellent news. :) (In before Saturn claiming he has known it all these years.)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 6/8/2009 8:36 PM
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NameSpoofer
Former player
Joined: 6/3/2008
Posts: 136
Location: US
Oh shit. It looks real too. Why is Hero of the Day on there, I noticed his name floating around. O.o
Trained by Cpadolf. Mission: To Perfect. Hero says: Yeah bro, I almost went super saiyan once My SM-RBO Current Project(s): 1)I don't TAS anymore! Pay me!
Posted: 6/8/2009 9:04 PM
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PKJC
Joined: 7/2/2004
Posts: 12
NameSpoofer wrote:
Oh shit. It looks real too. Why is Hero of the Day on there, I noticed his name floating around. O.o
The comment was basically 'Is this the trick hero of the day tried and couldn't get?' if I remember right, I had to go back and re-read when I saw that. =P
Posted: 6/8/2009 9:26 PM
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evilchen
Joined: 6/9/2006
Posts: 614
Location: Mettmann
holy shit its open'd? whats the new route :D?
https://www.youtube.com/user/armitageyt
Posted: 6/8/2009 9:55 PM
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Graveworm
Former player
Joined: 9/29/2005
Posts: 460
How would that save time again? Looks like it takes quite a while to set up, and it means you'd either have to kill Kraid first, or do a norfair heat run (not awesome). I guess you might as well pick up plasma if you're doing this? But it'll cost alot of time in terms of setting up and doing Norfair either without Varia, I'm sure that wont save time though, or doing Kraids lair without speed booster or such, and Norfair without power bombs. Or am I missing something crucial here?
Posted: 6/8/2009 9:56 PM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
The video doesn't load for me -- I click on the big button in the Flash widget, and my browser gets stuck on "Waiting for smile-clb61.nicovideo.jp...". Is there a non-Nicovideo source?
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 6/8/2009 10:07 PM
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hero_of_the_day
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
.....WoW It seems legit to me. The amazing part is that they used the same strategy I originally devised many pages back- - Using a shinespark to put the gate in the correct vertical position when the missile passes through. I tried for so long, it is nice to finally see it accomplished. As for the new route, it does open up a whole new can of worms. The in-game route is now probably 20 seconds faster. might post new route ideas later on....
They're off to find the hero of the day...
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