Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
I did a speedrun of this recently and, after the TAS of the original was rejected, I wanted to see if I could do a better job.
I've done the first 16 levels so far, available here. (Also, stop playing the movie just before I hit start to end the third level if you want a laugh.)
I'm up to The Shadow Nose now - and I've played through a little bit of it to alert you to a glitch which I intend to fully exploit.
As of the end of Recycle or Die my time was 5:55:28.
Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
Uploaded a new version up to somewhere in Cave Fear. (13/22 levels done!)
Progress will probably be slow for the next fortnight due to exams - I'll try to do as much as possible though.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
Just tested the idea that mike proposed in my vectorman submission about skipping the huge pillars in scene 2... it's so temptingly close, but I don't think it's possible. There is a total lack of enemies near the pillars, and you can't manipulate them to come any closer to get a damage boost, and a simple double jump gets close, but not nearly enough height.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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Surprisingly, despite not using memory watch, mike's run did an amazing job with the first boss in scene four. I'm still trying to work out the best strategy, and so far I'm still completing the level 6 frames behind him. Life would be a lot easier if Gens would actually allow me to see both health RAM addresses for the boss though, so far I've only been able to get it to correctly display one, although I have two working addresses. Overall I'm up by about 2.3 seconds, if anyone actually would like to follow my progress.
EDIT: Got Gens to stop acting retarded. Boss WIP to follow.
EDIT 2: WIP up to Scene 5
Very good, though I expected a bit more cheerful results. :D
However, you should be able to gain more seconds on open levels (sadly, there aren't many of those in VM2).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
moozooh wrote:
Very good, though I expected a bit more cheerful results. :D
However, you should be able to gain more seconds on open levels (sadly, there aren't many of those in VM2).
I'm not sure what you mean by cheerful, but if you're referring to my "if anyone wants to follw this" comment, I've seen that you and adelikat (and sometimes Upthorn) are about the only two people who really like the V-man, even though both the games are pretty good (1 being better than 2 IMO). And if you meant time saved, the yeah, it is a shame about the lack of open levels to gain time with, because I shaved off another 2 sec. on scene 5. Mike's run was pretty optimized on the first, third, and fourth levels but the queen at the end though will easily take off at least another 5 seconds though, since he didn't know to just hit the brain when he made his run. Anyway, thanks for watching moozooh!
"Cheerful" as in "more substantial". But yeah, many good Genesis titles are easily overshadowed by Sonic when it comes to TASing. Come to think of it, Treasure games were almost untouched until 2007, Contra: Hard Corps also haven't been given the treatment it deserves, it took 2.5 years for Rocket Knight Adventures to start being improved, and it's not even the half of all Genesis games which have considerable entertainment potential.
I'm glad at least Vectorman series is being worked on recently.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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I know how you feel about authors "owning" runs, but I'm hoping that I can make this series somewhat my own. I don't mean that I should be the only one to run them, but when people think of the games, I hope they think of the runs I've published (similar to how I can't think about Sonic advance without Nitsuja coming to mind, even though he comes to mind for a ton of games). And I agree that the Genesis has had a significant lack of runs, and that was only reinforced when I did my archive project (it has about 75% of the runs the SNES does). I think it will certainly become my platform of choice for future runs.
I don't have anything against owning a series as long as quality is maintained. Because, you know, if someone obsoletes one of your Vectorman runs, you'll have to reclaim it by doing an even better run. Otherwise such owning is moot. ;)
And it's good there's interest in doing Genesis runs. Some of the existing runs should also be improved (Earthworm Jim, for example).
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Are you going to be posting any wips on this?
Glad to see mike's run was pretty good, and that I wasn't just a bad judge of TAS'ing. I'm a big fan of both vectorman games as well, although a much bigger fan of vectorman 1 (not sure i ever beat v2).
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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Look 6 posts up, there's my WIP for the first 4 stages. I'll probably throw another one out around halfway, then probably keep the last half for submission, unless I need advice or input. But I may WIP it up more often than that if asked.
Joined: 11/18/2006
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New WIP to show off I'm up to scene 11 and I'm around 500 frames ahead, although I'm going to redo scene 10 because it's about 4 frames slower than Mike's run. The blocks in scene 9 are the most frustrating thing in this game, followed closely by the vertical levels, but I think my solution for that level is pretty close to optimal. I wish there were more improvements to be found, but this is a pretty tight game already. Let me know what you think.
Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
It would appear your problems in scene 10 were due to not managing your health well in scene 8.
However I am suitably impressed. Well done on Dirty Job :D
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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mike89 wrote:
It would appear your problems in scene 10 were due to not managing your health well in scene 8.
However I am suitably impressed. Well done on Dirty Job :D
Actually, that health management 'problem' gained me 17 frames because it helped keep my speed as constant as possible. Jumping and shooting can keep it close to 1520, but the best strategy is to just stay on the ground as much as I can. That's not as practical on the second rollerblading level as the first, so I thought I'd use it to gain back some of that health I lost during that level. I'm sure I can at least match the time with another run through.
EDIT: Did I say 17? I meant 9... oops. Finished with scene 10 and saved 22 frames, on to scene 11.
Joined: 11/18/2006
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Up to scene 17 (ie Shadownose), and I've managed to gain 733 frames (12.2 seconds) on Mike's run. I'm not going to post a WIP since I'm so close to the end of the game, but I figured I'd give an update for those who wanted it. Progress has been slightly slow because I've picked up one of my other hobbies (poker) again recently, but I'm back to working on this also. Hopefully I'll have a submission within a week.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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After three and a half months, I've picked this back up again in the past couple days, but due to working a 9 to 5 this summer I haven't had a whole lot of time to make much progress. The blocks in the Shadownose level are giving me hell, with desynchs and losing time causing the most problems. It's a lot easier to go over than to go up in this game. Anyway, I'll keep plugging along at it, and after this level things should be fairly smooth sailing from here on out.
Joined: 8/8/2005
Posts: 296
Location: NSW, Australia
And just when I was about to give up on you!
Hurry up and get it done, I hate seeing my run on the site - it's not all that good, and I'm a speedrunner anyways.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
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Alright, this started to get frustrating. I'm working through shout'n'twist, and started using (what I'm assuming) is the subpixel address for my x location, and I'm somehow losing 13 frames in an area where it really shouldn't be possible. On Mike's movie, on frame 23038, his subpixel location is 3800, and I'm beating it by 754 frames. However, when I get to subpixel 4000, I'm mysteriously behind by 7 frames. Then comes a jump to a platform that I cannot possibly do any sooner, and I'm magically behind by another 6 frames. So 13 frames behind in an area that I've kept my speed at max (using RAM watch), and jumped at the first possible moment. Anyone have any ideas?
Alright, this started to get frustrating. I'm working through shout'n'twist, and started using (what I'm assuming) is the subpixel address for my x location, and I'm somehow losing 13 frames in an area where it really shouldn't be possible. On Mike's movie, on frame 23038, his subpixel location is 3800, and I'm beating it by 754 frames. However, when I get to subpixel 4000, I'm mysteriously behind by 7 frames. Then comes a jump to a platform that I cannot possibly do any sooner, and I'm magically behind by another 6 frames. So 13 frames behind in an area that I've kept my speed at max (using RAM watch), and jumped at the first possible moment. Anyone have any ideas?
Are there any moving platforms or such in the area where you're losing frames? Perhaps their timing was altered by getting to the level so much earlier.
You're also misusing the term "subpixel". Subpixel positioning is completely invisible, and vectorman only has 256 subpixels per pixel.
The idea that you would lose 7 frames in 200 subpixels is ludicrous, because it would mean that you basically stood still for 7 frames. If you lost 7 frames in 200 pixels that would make far more sense, as 200 pixels is more than half the length of the screen.
Anyway, if there aren't any timed platforms you have to wait on, it's possible that there's lag.
Also, have you tried watching Mike's movie in frame advance with the ram watch on and/or duplicating his input to see what you're doing differently?
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong
I'm not sure of the correct terminology when it comes to pixel location, I just know that the number increases when I move right (by 3 or 4 when I'm moving at full speed), decreases when I move left, and stops changing when I stand still (and doesn't change at all when I jump straight up). So I'm assuming this is a reliable way of pinpointing my location. The address is 00FFE496, 2 bytes, unsigned, if that helps.
There's no moving platforms, but there is one enemy that we both have to kill. I've compared our tactics, and mine would seem to be better for lag reduction: he shoots 4 times, connecting with the enemy three times, and then jump-boosts to kill the enemy; I simply jump-boost the enemy. Both methods produce 5 photons from the enemy (the little swirling circles), so that could be a source of total lag reduction, but not when comparing movies. With the extra shots he takes, that should make his movie slower due to lag, not faster.
I can upload my WIP if that would help, I only have 12 seconds of time saved, so it's not the most revolutionary update ever seen.
I can upload my WIP if that would help, I only have 12 seconds of time saved, so it's not the most revolutionary update ever seen.
Yeah, that would be good so i could compare them better.
Edit: It suddenly also occurs to me that the vectorman games behave differently depending on your sample rate. Does your movie have the same sound rate as mike's? That could be part of the explanation.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
