Greetings, all. I am a member of the community at http://www.metroid2002.com and have been so for some time. While I do not actively pursue the same sort of gaming endeavours most of the patrons of sites like this one and metroid 2002, I am very involved with the community thereof and support elite gaming in all its forms. It is with this mindset that I approach this forum.
Relations between the elite console gaming community and the elite emulator gaming community are as they have long been: strained and at times openly hostile. I dislike this state of affairs as I find enjoyment and entertainment in watching both console runs and emulated runs. It is a different kind of enjoyment with each, and I expect different things from them, however, they are, at their core, merely different types of elite gaming. For a time I did not think much of this; I recognized it as a problem but found no inclination or means to attempt to fix it.
This thread on m2k2 changed my mind. It concerns a member of the nesvideos community, and what he was calling a Tool-Assisted Speedrun of Super Metroid. Posting a link to a promo video of what the community at m2k2 refers to as "Emulation Rape" generated a very quick and mixed response, easily viewable there. I came to the conclusion after conferring with the admin of m2k2, Nathan Jahnke, that the primary problem was not what the emulated run was but what it displayed itself as. One of the primary reasons so many members of m2k2 hold emulated runs in such distaste is the fact that emulated runs appear to be the same thing as console runs at first glance (but are not), and they outperform their look-alike cousins to a considerable degree. Whether any one person is specifically interested in emulated runs or not and whether they find them offensive or not are two seperate distinctions. The issue then arises from nomenclature: Spades should be called spades, and they should be so called both loudly and obviously for all to hear.
The large problem with this is that the name for these emulated runs is in dispute. Not among the emulating community by any stretch, but between the different major factions of elite gaming. m2k2 would have them be derisively known as Emulation Rape or Emu Rape, while the emulating community would have them be known as the very politically correct Tool-Assisted Speedruns. Neither community is willing to accept the other's term. This lack of a definitive name is a severe impediment to relations between these major sides of the elite gaming community. For each to shrug the other off as inconsequential and not care what they think is, in my humble opinion, a mistake.
Therefore, and as you can see in the thread I linked to, I feel that a new name should be agreed on by both sides. The name I propose is "Cyborg Run", the verb form of which would be "To Borg a Run/Game". My reasoning, reposted from the thread on m2k2:
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1: It is as accurate as you can possibly get. The first line of the article 'Cyborg' on Wikipedia reads:
"The term cyborg, a portmanteau of cybernetic organism, is used to designate an organism which is a mixture of organic and mechanical (synthetic) parts. Generally, the aim is to add to or enhance the abilities of an organism by using technology."
I can't imagine how anyone could argue that that's not an accurate description of what we at m2k2 call emulation rape. In truth it's more a tightened and cooler-sounding version of "tool assistance" than anything. Which brings me to the next reason:
2: It sounds better than anything currently in use. "Tool assistance" sounds, to me, anyway, as spineless as "vertically challenged person of separate gender" to describe a short woman in poltically correct gibberish. I've never heard a person desribe their emulated run as "tool-assisted" in any tone other than a begrudging "I have to say this so I am" sort of way. Furthermore, "Emulation Rape" contains the word "Rape", which is probably offensive to more than one person out there, I would dare say. Compare:
"Hey guys, check out my Tool-Assisted Speedrun of Metroid II"
"Hey guys, check out my Emu Rape of Metroid II"
"Hey guys, check out my Cyborg Run of Metroid II"
"I am in the middle of doing a run of Metroid II with tool assistance" or "I'm tooling Metroid II"
"I'm raping Metroid II"
"I'm borging Metroid II"
3: I've got nothing riding on this since I've never done a run. This isn't actually a reason that my idea is a good one, but it does stand to show that I'm just offering this as a possible way of easing tensions between two groups of gamers that really have enough in common to make a feud pretty stupid.
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So I'm posting this here to see what you guys think.
Here is (part) of the reply I sent to SaberInBlue over hearing this idea.
Bisqwit wrote:
Your viewpoint of the term "tool-assisted speedrun" sounding like a extremely over-politely-correct term had not occured to me (me not being a native English speaker might have something to do with it), and I had merely considered it a nice precise term that describes what the movies are about (me being a programmer might have something to do with that).
Your idea, "cyborg run" is certainly much better than "timeattack" (or "emurape", for that matter) and indeed not necessarily worse than "tool-assisted speedrun".
It's also closer to the original idea of my site (demonstrate mad superhuman playing) than the term "tool-assisted speedrun" (which implies that it's a human with improved tools, aiming to improve upon non-assisted speedruns).
I also asked for Warp's opinion (for he has been a strong voice favoring the term "tool-assisted speedrun"), but he wrote a complete message instead. I didn't send it that time, but I'll post it here:
Warp wrote:
We fully aknowledge the problem of people confusing a tool-assisted speedrun with a legit speedrun, and this is precisely the reason why we want to be as clear as possible when naming these runs. We do not want people to get confused, we do not want people to think that these are legit regular speedruns, we do want them to know that these have been made with an emulator as a tool to achieve almost-perfection.
As you might know, it was common to call these runs "timeattacks" in the past (and some people still do). Since that term does not describe in any way the true nature of the runs, and moreover it is already used for a completely different type of run (eg. in racing games), it was quite confusing and people got the wrong idea. For this reason a much better term was needed.
We did not have to look far for a better term. We actually did not invent the term "tool-assisted speedrun" because it was already in use for this exact type of speedrunning: If you search in the Doom speedrunning community you will find that there exist tool-assisted speedruns of that game. These existed and the term was used long before even the first tool-assisted NES runs were made. It was an already established term in the speedrunning community (at least in the Doom speedrunning one).
Thus there are several reasons why "tool-assisted speedrun" is an excellent term for this purpose:
Firstly, it was already used and established in other speedrunning communities. Secondly, it is very descriptive without being utterly long. Thirdly, it's much less confusing than basically anything else you can come up with (unless you create a much longer and awkward term).
Your proposition of "cyborg run" is, in my opinion, not very good. It's confusing. People who see it for the first time cannot know what it means. Granted, some people might miss what "tool-assisted" means too, but I'm pretty sure there are less chances for that.
I honestly don't understand what's wrong with "tool-assisted speedrun". It was not invented by us (but the Doom speedrunning community) and thus it was already established, it's quite descriptive and less confusing than anything else. I can't see any "political correctness" that you mention in that name.
It is my honest opinion that if someone has a problem with that name, that's his problem, not ours. I cannot see anything wrong with that name. It is neutral, descriptive and honest, it doesn't try to boast and certainly doesn't try to deceive, but all the contrary. Also, most speedrunners know what it means, which is actually a huge argument against changing it.
Both of these views are valid. Therefore I think further discussion is welcomed.
The term "tool-asisted speedrun" or "tool-assisted demo" has been around since the days of DooM speedruns, where alterations t the game or interface to allow for slowdown / rerecording / seeing through walls / etc were allowed to get "theoretical" best times. It would be rather silly to create a new term when the one which already exists has been used for some 5, 10 years and is quite easily explained to whoever doesn't already know what it is.
As you say, a traditional speedrun and a tool-assisted speedrun are two entirely different things. The former tests the player's skill. The latter tests the game's limits.
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
I think tool-assisted speedrun is the most accurate term.
"Cyborg run" is depreciative, in my pov. Why because it has nothing of robotic in the runs. They are made by humans who think for themselves. Only the rules are different. Making a tool-assisted speedrun involves thinking only. If you say that "thinking" isn't a human atribute, then it gets philosophycal. TASes are as human as it gets. Some will disagree. So we can't get into that spec.
If you want to name them "theorethical speedruns" i like it much better. Because that's what they are. Possible, but unlikely.
I apreciate you coming here to talk about it, but it has been discussed over and over. I hardly ever see hatred from the TAS community over the speedrunning community, so i don't see why there should be the opposite. Many people i know prefer speedruns over TASes, so there you go. Only those who want to be fooled will be fooled. We write with all the letters "this is a tool-assisted speedrun" on the AVIs. You can't help if people are ignorant and can't read. It's not like they have to search for the info, it's SHOWN to them that it's not a legit speedrun.
I'm not comparing emulated runs or runners to robots. A robot would be something else entirely, merely a bot playing the game. What I mean by "cyborg" is the combination of the player and the machine, the machine being savestates and slowdown, which, combined and each contributing to the gameplay, outperform any mere human playing on a console.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
I still think that cyborg resembles more a robot than a human.
Why not call it "steroids speedrun" i like that more.
edit: sorry to bring it up again, but this thread has 11 pages of discussion over what these things should be called.
I still think that cyborg resembles more a robot than a human.
Isn't that an accurate description of what an emulated superplay run looks like? I don't even mean that in a bad way. I myself think it's both accurate and cool.
I hardly ever see hatred from the TAS community over the speedrunning community, so i don't see why there should be the opposite.
It's like "real metal" and NU-metal, the makers/listeners of "real metal" can't stand NU-metal because it's not as "true", but usually, Mallcore kids doesn't have anything against this "real metal", but some people like me listen to both NU and this "real metal", as well as I do "real" or realtime and tool assisted speedruns. But some people at Metroid2002, (Only using this as an example) despise these runs because they "make the speedrunning community look bad".
(Oh, and btw, I got banned from there for defending bisqwit, maybe I was a little bit harsh, but whatever, the bottomline is that it was just really stupid.) Oh, and I was on probation for something I wrote, but another admin over there wrote about the same thing a couple of days later, it's pretty funny though, how he can, but I can't write it. Yes, I dislike them. For many reasons, therefore I might take party with bisqwit, so I don't know if you should believe everything I write.
SABERinBLUE wrote:
I feel that a new name should be agreed on by both sides. The name I propose is "Cyborg Run", the verb form of which would be "To Borg a Run/Game". My reasoning, reposted from the thread on m2k2:
You can't possibly figure that out by yourself, "cyborg". Is it a game? A style? The format of the file? I don't know what thoughts will pop up in peoples minds, but you have to be stupid not to get what tool-assisted means, and if you don't, get into bisqwit's site and start reading, if you don't know, you'll only make a fool out of yourself. (Yes, I've learned that from experience.)
No, I don't think it'll be any better.
You can't possibly figure that out by yourself, "cyborg". Is it a game? A style? The format of the file? I don't know what thoughts will pop up in peoples minds, but you have to be stupid not to get what tool-assisted means, and if you don't, get into bisqwit's site and start reading, if you don't know, you'll only make a fool out of yourself. (Yes, I've learned that from experience.)
One thing that has occured to me is that the word "cyborg" sticks out a whole lot more. Someone who doesn't know "tool-assisted" may just slide over the word and not think much of it, and then they'd think the run was for real. The same person might be inclined to ask what "cyborg" means, on the flip side.
No, I don't think it'll be any better.
Let me reiterate that I don't have anything riding on this; I merely think it's a good idea. It's all a matter of opinion, and this site's opinion is more important than any other, quite naturally.
As long as we're re-evaluating the names of things, I'd still like to suggest the same I always do: "demonstration" or "tool-assisted demonstration". NOT using the term "speedrun" lessens the chance of confusion between the two, and USING the term "demonstration" shows that it isn't meant for any sort of competition or records, even if such a demonstration is for "fastest time possible".
someone is out there who will like you. take off your mask so they can find you faster.
I support the new Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
SABERinBLUE wrote:
FODA wrote:
I still think that cyborg resembles more a robot than a human.
Isn't that an accurate description of what an emulated superplay run looks like? I don't even mean that in a bad way. I myself think it's both accurate and cool.
No it isn't accurate. have you tried making a TAS yet? at super mario bros you don't fight bowser there because you're not playing the game. You're playing by other rules. It's like a completely different, strategy game. It's almost a puzzle. In making a TAS you are presented with a chalenge, then you think and find solutions for it. The tools are merely part of the rule. As in playing with a controler is part of the rule to speedrunning super mario 3.
What in the hell is wrong with "tool-assisted speedrun"? It's short and to the point, and it doesn't confuse itself with a realtime run. You don't see us disparaging those who choose to limit themselves to realtime runs, so it's childish of people to call TAS runs "emu-rape". Good old Nate over there are M2k2 is a prime example of this, from what I read he sees himself as "superior" to TAS runners. A few choice quotes:
Nate, in response to someone asking if a run was TAS or not wrote:
i'm pretty sure it is. people are just confused, as usual, which is why producing such things ought to result in instant damnation.
Nate wrote:
Saturn wrote:
Now I know at least why Nate insists to disrespect me by intentionaly calling my run a rape instead of a tool assisted speedrun. Maybe its just too good and impresses too much so someone might get jealous, who knows.
what pray tell would someone be jealous of? like being jealous of an ant after you crush it because it was able to inflict pain on you: there's never any doubt in your mind which of you was superior, but it still hurts.
Nate wrote:
the only time when i have really felt as though i could take a firm position on something has been the "should emu rape be eradicated" argument. emu rapes hurt my friends and this community, so i decided that it would be alright if i sided against them (and with my friends). surely if everyone in my community thinks that rape is wrong, then it's not counterproductive of me to agree with them. indeed, if i were to side with the rapes (which i hardly see any value in), shouldn't my community start looking for a new leader, one who actually shared their views?
And this last one especially makes me sad (emphasis mine):
Nate wrote:
unless i'm mistaken, the current nomenclature on the emu rape side, "tool-assisted run", originated from the emu rape side, and the current nomenclature on the "contingent" (my community) side, emu rape, originated here, or close enough to here for our purposes. the contingent objects to "tool-assisted" out of clarity's sake - it has been shown time after time that newbs will not understand what the tools or the assistance is unless it is explained to them. failure.
and "emu rape" is pretty offensive, but that is the purpose of the contingent, to place an offensive name on what is offensive to us. however, unless it is to follow the example of "gay" or "nigger" and be "reclaimed" by the ostracized community it refers to, "emu rape" will probably not do saber's job for us.
the trouble in my mind is that this is hardly the first time this has been brought up. saber's suggestion seems quite cute and apt to me, but are rapists really going to change all of their nametags from "tool" to "cyborg", especially given that saber often seems to be a member of the contingent? in my experience, they (the rapists) do things when they want to for their own self-serving reasons, much as we do.
with no workable compromise on the horizon, i have to continue to protect my people and their property, and i will do everything in my power to discredit and destroy emu rape when it is not properly labeled as such. just as in real life, no one gets arrested for talking about taboo subjects, but they do make life difficult for themselves and everyone around them when they do.
He says that after labeling ALL TASrunners "rapists", without regard to how their run was published? I understand that M2k2 is his forum and he can say what he wants, but it's also my right to call him a loony for equating "makes emulated speedruns with slowdown and savestates" with "forcibly having sex with someone against their will".
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
This is totally and wholly unacceptable.
So Metroid2002, those who are somehow unable to accept that there are, in fact, people who don't adhere to their dogmatic ideas, now wants us to change what we call our runs simply so it's more politically correct to them?
Who do you think you are?
Let me address the problem of your proposal in three points:
First off, this community makes runs for entertainment and competitiveness, as is stated on the main site time and again in big bold letters. However, tool-assistance has been around for much longer. It originally started in the Doom speedrun community, which actually coined the term; it's been around ever since, but wasn't very popular in the Quake scene. It only recently started becoming popular again due to the release of modified emulators made by the initial founders of this community. Now, my point here is: why are we, the tool-assisted speedrun community as it is today, so unwanted by the unassisted runners, even though there was no hostility 10 years ago when people were doing the exact same thing?
Secondly, has there ever been any hostility towards the unassisted community from our side? Have we ever DDoS'ed your sites, spammed your forums and chatrooms, or tried to ruin your community's name on other communities? But msot of all: have we ever complained to you that you need to adhere to us? No--that never happens, because apparently, we're the bad guys. This is a classic example of that way of thinking!
And lastly, let me ask you this: aren't you at fault here? We put in big bold font that we make tool-assisted runs; not to be confused with unassisted runs at all. It's on the main page, it's in the FAQ on serveral pages, it's even in movie descriptions every now and then. We constantly show that we're not the same community; we even have a warning notification that says so in every single movie on this site!
Now you tell me why we should begin to do even more to please those that will, for one, never be pleased (does giving these runs a different name mean they'll be welcomed with open arms at your forum right now?), while hurting our own community by giving an inaccurate and arguably very honorless (dare I say embarrassing?) name.
I thank you for making a polite post about this, and apparently even asking Bisqwit for approval, but this is a plain ridiculous proposal. It's very undesirable for us personally, and won't ever have the desired effect to begin with.
If we ever want to achieve a friendly speedrun community, then it's the unassisted community that should become more open to our ideas; not the other way around.
(Oh, and btw, I got banned from there for defending bisqwit, maybe I was a little bit harsh, but whatever, the bottomline is that it was just really stupid.) Oh, and I was on probation for something I wrote, but another admin over there wrote about the same thing a couple of days later, it's pretty funny though, how he can, but I can't write it. Yes, I dislike them. For many reasons, therefore I might take party with bisqwit, so I don't know if you should believe everything I write.
I understand that M2k2 is his forum and he can say what he wants, but it's also my right to call him a loony for equating "makes emulated speedruns with slowdown and savestates" with "forcibly having sex with someone against their will".
Indeed. You can definitely tell the difference between the attitude on forums moderated by Bisqwit (mature and open-minded) and Nate (neither of those). I'm very happy to be on this side.
No matter what they are called, there will always be an angry community. Those that don't educate themselves about these TASs (the ones on this site which clearly indicate their intent and origin) only have themselves to blame.
Edit: I predict locking within 24 hours.
Edit again:
TRH wrote:
Graveworm, we banned you because (blah blah blah)
This is exactly the difference in forum attitude I was referring to.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Alas, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
I'm not going to let this topic turn into a Metroid2002 spam party, and will lock it if these sort of things continue.
TRH, I think that an apology for insulting Graveworm and a mature discussion attitude would be in place.
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
TRH is the one who seems to need moderation. It only shows the kind of maturity that goes in the speedrunning community, in general.
If they want to make their runs more different than ours, they can start labeling their runs as "legit speedrun" on every avi they make. That's a good solution.
If they want to make their runs more different than ours, they can start labeling their runs as "legit speedrun" on every avi they make. That's a good solution.
THANK YOU!! I couldn't have said it better.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
I think the best solution is for the console runners to start labelling their runs as 'Classic Speed Runs' or 'Old School Speed Runs'. Then we can keep the 'Tool-Assisted Speed Runs' designation we like.
He says that after labeling ALL TASrunners "rapists", without regard to how their run was published? I understand that M2k2 is his forum and he can say what he wants, but it's also my right to call him a loony for equating "makes emulated speedruns with slowdown and savestates" with "forcibly having sex with someone against their will".
That's why that term sucks, but you must understand, it's just vernacular over at m2k2. That's what everyone calls it, no matter whether they think it's a bad thing on not. You'll note that this sort of thing is not seen as "beneath" m2k2. Other quotes from the forums:
LifeMega wrote:
That... was the most awesome thing ever. Raped Super Metroid. I can't wait to see this run.
spineshark wrote:
Never seen emu-rape before. This ought to be good. Getting episode 1, HQ, right now.
njhanke wrote:
the fusion forum is becoming the 'hall of emu-raped wonders'. might have to renovate the fusion section or something.
As I said, this was just an idea, and it's you guys' opinion that counts in this. Thanks for your time.
I am locking this topic. The reception of SaberInBlue's idea wasn't all that good, and none of Warp's arguments were countered, and the discussion is going off-topic.
This discussion is iced.
Sorry.
Edit:
We will continue to use the term 'tool-assisted speedrun'. But I won't shun it if someone uses the term 'cyborg run' when introducing these movies on some other site.
