ugh. This game is so stupid!
I just realized that if you go into the room with the guard at the beginning of the setup -- YES, you save 22 lag frames in Blind Level 4 -- BUT, it also creates a bad Warp-16 with super lag and continuous time remaining box popup.
So, in order to get the preferred Warp-16, and save a billion lag frames, you must pay the 22 lag frames in Level 4.
That's disappointing. But now we know!
I tried several alternatives, and different timing, and different sprite positions and animations, but it's always the same. If you go into the guard room first, it ruins the Warp-16 pattern later. haha. :(
I went back and edited the previous comment to remove inaccurate information. I'll update the rest later.
Currently, because of the new 5a recording, and the upcoming improved setup recording, these extra 22 frames will not hurt too much.
new breakdown --
6022 -- setup
3823 -- blind level 04
2247 -- blind level 05
_936 -- F-GT level 05
_893 -- F-GT level 16
1824 -- F-GT level 17
7312 -- F-GT level 18
5008 -- F-GT level 19
1686 -- F-GT level 20
1478 -- transitions 16-20
31,229 = 8:39.62755959365,,
Lol, I beat the world record today with a pretty bad run, while messing around. I've been grinding a full "Setup thru start 17," as a connected proof of all the warps in the route. On this particular try, I made a couple of mistakes that made it unusable for a demonstration of best possible time. On a whim, I decided to run the whole route thru end of 20, and came out with an 8:44.9, so already, 8:45 is officially broken. I may not publish it, because of a few stupid mistakes.
Nevertheless, I am on the heels of something massive.
In the meantime, a thought occurred to me, regarding the potential difference in time between me & a TAS. Really the only key difference will be how quickly the TAS navigates the select menu for each "exit" for the warp glitches. My thought is this: At best, my menus are about 21 frames each. Regardless of how much faster the TAS is, there's not a ton of room there. The TAS would be at least a few frames each, which means it cannot be more than 2 seconds faster.
With this in mind, I must start giving the TAS a projection of only 2 seconds or less, better than my human projection. I will analyze Challenger's test video tonight, and get a more exact figure.
My projection will probably stay very close to the current mark of 8:39.628, so perhaps the TAS cannot do better than 8:37.628 (for example), unless some new techniques are discovered.
ok, so my absolute best setup (3x level 1) recorded so far (which is the basis for the projection) is about 54 frames slower than TAS on select menu & main menu, and another 38 frames lost between 5a and 5b select menus, and main menu.
That's 1.531 seconds.
Also, Challenger put together some slightly better movements in level 1 to save 54 frames in 1b, and these same rooms produce another 46 frames saved in 1c. So I'm 100 frames behind TAS playing level 1. At some point, I might try my hand at these alternate setups, but for now, I'm going to continue to grind with what I know, and give TAS those 100 frames.
That's another 1.664 seconds.
My recordings and movements for Levels 4, 5a, and 5b are all better than Challenger's test. So assuming no other slight improvements are found, I'll be tied with TAS after the Warp to Level 16, assuming no mistakes.
As I've said many times before, I'm doing all of this by hand with a controller, a phone camera, and a calculator. So I can't say for sure that Levels 16-20 are perfect. I would imagine that once Challenger starts putting together the official TAS, he may find a few animations here or there. Each animation saves 4 console frames. And certain setups can save half steps (2 console frames), or reduce lag (1 frame). So I wouldn't be surprised if the TAS precision could save another half second over the length of the run.
I made a 60 fps reference video from Challenger's test, so I've been able to track all of the tas times for menu navigation, and will be able to make note of these differences when I have a good video to upload. I will start grinding in earnest now, and see if I can get a WR closer to 8:41.
I'm trying very hard to shave 1 more animation off the Blind Level 4 time projection. Otherwise, the projection is pretty much done, in terms of human expectations.
So, if the human projection can come down to perhaps 31,221 = 8:39.494445, we could say the TAS will likely end up around 30,999 = 8:35.800529.
Of course, that would be counting from first frame of level 1 until first frame that select menu is displayed on-screen during the "end of level" music at the end of level 20. As I understand it, TAS rules provide for a slightly different accounting of the time. Nevertheless, I will be striving to help Challenger figure out how to break the "31k" mark by speedrun standards.
In the 2nd segment of the sub-9 setup, where you drop down and approach the "warp-8" hole, Challenger preferred a double-crouch to knock down the loose panel, whereas I have been doing a 1-step run. I've found that this double-crouch is easy enough to implement into my routine, so I will start doing that, and update the projection accordingly. I'm not sure if this improvement will give me quite enough room to realistically shoot for an official sub-8:40 speedrun, but it may be close!
I think it will be more instructive, statistically, to break up the setup segments the way I account for full levels. This will draw a better comparison between the human limitations, and the TAS projection. For instance, while playing the level, the performances will be much more consistent for comparison, whereas the "transitions," including time to navigate the Select Menus and exit, will fluctuate more, as the human hand is slower than the TAS inputs to rapidly navigate the select menu. The next time I release a video, I will provide times for each segment, each transition, and comparisons to TAS time.
new sum of best is down to 8:38.995. I'm working on recording an official video for it, and then I will update the projection stats. I have a pretty clear picture of where the TAS will be, so stay tuned for that as well. Once I have my official human & tas projections, the challenge will be issued, to see whether Challenger can find any improvements to lower my tas estimate!
YaaHooooo!!!
Magic happened last night!
I made a small mistake on 5b, while recording a full setup demo. I missed the 2nd jump, which caused a bad clip off the ledge. I had to adjust and do a triple-crouch to reach the next wall, instead of the better double-crouch (as seen in Challenger's TAS for Level 8, after the 2 chompers).
I was about to quit, because I've been trying very hard to have a perfect proof of concept for the improved setup route, incorporating several of the tricks Challenger added in his setup test.
But I knew levels 1, 4, and 5a were very good, so I switched gears, and turned it into a World Record attempt. I played Level 17 conservatively, as usual, losing about 30 frames, because I did triple-crouches at the 2nd and 3rd log, just to make sure I didn't get hit. Before that, I had lost 20 frames on 5b, mostly from that missed ledge clip. (+4 on the ledge clip, +12 for the extra crouch, and +4 mistake in final room to knock loose panel late).
But after that, the run was basically perfect. Only single-animation mistakes here and there through levels 18 and 19 cost another 24 frames, but I saved 24 frames on the transition between 19-20, relative to my projection, because I forgot that the 19-20 transition is faster than some of the other Princess Scenes. It only takes 412 frames here, and in Challenger's 33 minute TAS, as opposed to the 440 frames I've been projecting. So I went into Level 20 with a comfortable buffer below the 8:40 mark, and played Level 20 almost perfectly, only losing 2 frames (less than 1 animation), probably lag.
So the new human World Record is 31,242 console frames = 8:39.84387. This is the perfect way to celebrate Challenger's upcoming TAS! ;)
I'll provide a breakdown of the individual level times soon, with better projections for the new TAS. Also next will be more individual level videos, now that the full setup has been officially documented.
A few fun notes about this video --
at 11:25, I used Kill Button to kill the Ghost during the "Highlights" video after the end. This killed the Prince too, but since he was stuck in his running position, he continued to run through the gate, and down the hallway. This will happen with any Sprite Set, including original sprites. It's not a Gate Thief trick. Here, you can also do something like this by putting in a password for Level 17 with 0 health bottles. The Prince will start the level running, although dead, and continue to run until the Spikes catch him.
at 11:40, I used Kill Button to kill the Level 18 Boss. The timing was just right so the Boss died during his sword fight animation, so the Prince put his sword away, and got killed by the dead Boss. haha! -- Also interesting, this Warp-16 setup gives me Invincibility Mode, which doesn't have any useful purpose for shortcuts in this route. But this video here shows that Invincibility Mode does not continue to be active into the Highlights portion, since the Prince was killed by the dead Boss.
at 12:10, I show off my Console + TV setup, and show all the cables.
at 14:52, you can see me say hello to the camera!
Prince of Persia - SNES - ANY% - 8:39.84387,
Link to video
31,242 console frames.
ok, so I've crunched some numbers, and here's what I've come up with so far as a potential projection for the TAS, with a comparison to the totals for the new World Record.
1' - 5992 wr, 5882 tas, -110.
4' - 3826 wr, 3807 tas, _-19.
5a- 2239 wr, 2209 tas, _-30.
5b- _952 wr, _912 tas, _-40.
16- 1239 wr, 1200 tas, _-39. (new strategy found after WR recording).
17- 2202 wr, 2174 tas, _-28.
18- 7670 wr, 7658 tas, _-12.
19- 5434 wr, 5422 tas, _-12.
20- 1688 wr, 1686 tas, __-2. -- tas [-292 = 4.85866494 seconds better than WR video]
tot- 31242 wr, 30950 tas = 8:34.98520508...
With this, 31k is broken, and 8:35 is broken. (At least by RTA counting.)
All of my personal best segments add up to 31,112 = 8:37.680765765,, which is 19 full frames clear of 8:38.00. I would have to learn the better 4th and 5th rooms in 1b and 1c if I were to have a reasonable shot at 8:37.x.
Here's a closer look at the numbers: ("t" = transition segment; "s" = sub-total.)
1a -- _714 wr, _714 tas. __-0.
1at - _325 wr, _308 tas. _-17.
1b -- 1955 wr, 1936 tas. _-19.
1bt - _378 wr, _344 tas. _-34.
1c -- 2468 wr, 2444 tas. _-24.
1ct - _152 wr, _136 tas. _-16.
1s -- 5992 wr, 5882 tas. -110.
4d -- 3348 wr, 3329 tas. _-19. (thru first frame climbing steps exit)
4dt - _478 wr, _478 tas. __-0.
4ds - 3826 wr, 3807 tas, _-19.
5a -- _773 wr, _772 tas. __-1. (thru select at 4th frame final sprite)
5at - 1466 wr, 1437 tas. _-29.
5as - 2239 wr, 2209 tas, _-30.
5b -- _790 wr, _770 tas. _-20.
5bt - _162 wr, _142 tas. _-20.
5bs - _952 wr, _912 tas, _-40.
16 -- _895 wr, _856 tas, _-39.
16t - _344 wr, _344 tas, __-0.
17 -- 1854 wr, 1828 tas, _-26.
17t - _348 wr, _346 tas, __-2.
18 -- 7323 wr, 7312 tas, _-11.
18t - _347 wr, _346 tas, __-1.
19 -- 5020 wr, 5008 tas, _-12.
19t - _414 wr, _414 tas, __-0.
20 -- 1688 wr, 1686 tas, __-2.
tot- 31242 wr, 30950 tas, -292.
30950 tas = 8:34.98520508...
(notice -- Challenger has found improvements to levels 4 & 5 since this post of written. A new tas projection list to account for the new discoveries can be found below.)
A few preliminary tas notes for Challenger --
1a -- You'll need to use the exact same movements as from Level 1 in your "33:31" tas. The test has a later jump off the ledge.
1b -- My standing jump in the 6th room knocks the panel down faster than running to it. However, your jump/fall pattern in the 4th & 5th rooms seems to be best there. I noticed a slightly different jump used here for 1c. However, I believe both patterns result in the exact same time. 1c will always be 3 frames slower, because of new lag.
4 -- we've talked about the better pattern in the first room of level 4. Despite being slower in normal circumstances, lag reduction for this route dictates leaving the first room as quickly as possible, to save the most time universally. My movement must be considered only preliminary. 2 steps, stop on button, full run into gate, and standing jump forward. There may be a slightly better way to do it, but it is not practical for me to test it by hand.
I just found a better jump pattern at the 1st guard, this is another 4 frames saved, compared to the World Record video. I'm currently working on a new Blind Level 4 video to document all these notes.
I have found that my way of doing the long drop (take damage at lower gate) is best, as this later jump at the 3rd guard sets up a quicker panel fall. That jump causes equivalent time loss in the previous room (with the 3rd guard), but I think there is a consistent lag frame save there. You may be able to double check that for me.
I've noticed that your U-turn at the crusher is better, saving 6 frames in the room before the crusher, and another 6 frames in the crusher room.
However, it must be observed that you need to stop running in the crusher room, and allow the gate-waiting time to elapse here, rather than in the room with the gate. The gate cannot cause extra lag while it is off-screen in a different room -- even in the Blind level, it is still considered on-screen if you are in the same room.
5a -- I've optimized the movements in 5a. A standing jump to the button, a quick triple jump to clip the ledge, a double-crouch to the wall, and a quick double jump to the gate.
5b -- it appears that I have not yet published the better 5b jump pattern to clip the ledge. I'll do that shortly. For reference though, the World Record video sets up the first jump correctly, while the second jump was executed 1 frame too early. The next later jump provides the good clip for a double-crouch.
16 -- Today, I found a better way of doing level 16, which saves 38 frames, so there's the savings we need to get TAS below 8:35. Basically, you just have to hold run + jump before 16 starts for an immediate running jump. The same tactic used at the beginning of Level 17. The spacing is perfect to fall below the opposite ledge, and have time to start another running jump at the spikes. This saves a full 38 frames over my previous method of simply running off the edge at the beginning.
Thanks for your notes.
Also, I managed something very unexpected at the start of level 4:
Link to video
EDIT:
I returned to stage 16, and this time I played it, while adding more optimizations during this warp glitch route: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/70590763473446349
Also, I don't know how we never noticed it until now (This isn't included on the WIP yet):
Link to video
My homepage
--Currently not much motived for TASing as before...--
But I'm still working.
WIP looks great. here's a few notes...
level 1 --
Only thing you forgot on level 1 is the 2nd room in 1b and 1c. You can do the "stop running" at the edge to fall more to the right, then when you jump down, a single crouch, turn, and grab the left edge of the hole. Facing left saves a lot of time in the 3rd room each time.
Level 4 --
awesome first room. How did you do that? Is it a u-turn that slips through, and collides with the outside of the gate? -- if so, that's funny, because I just tried that exact trick on level 19, to see if there was a better way to get through the next gate, after jumping "through the top" of the previous gate. The fat gate thief starts a u-turn while running through the gate, collides with the backside of the gate, and gets bumped forward without actually turning around. It was a good idea, but it didn't pan out. The traditional way of running into the wall was still slightly faster.
At kill button for first guard of level 4, you forgot to hold forward before starting the "standing jump." This caused a slow standing jump, which cost 3 extra animations (12 frames).
Otherwise, Level 4 is excellent. I'm glad to see you found the right timing for the double jump past the gate, after the u-turn. This was my original approach, as seen in the 8:57 world record from a couple of years ago. By waiting the extra 8 frames, the next room is 31 frames better, so that's a net improvement at 23 frames. Unfortunately, back when I did my old world record video, I was overly cautious, and waited an extra 48 frames. lol.
I'll need to correct my tas projection: the better u-turn is 8 frames better than what I've been doing, not 12 frames better. So I will have to add 4 frames to tas projection before accounting for these new improvements.
-------
5a looks perfect.
5b, you got 1 animation better than me in the first two rooms (-4 console frames). Did you add a jump press at the edge in the 2nd room, or did you just run off?
the new right-facing fall on 5b is awesome! It saves about 81 frames over the previous "climb and fall" facing left. The transition time is slower (about 22 extra black frames), but did you notice how fast level 16 starts? Basically no lag! It was 48 frames faster to reach the ground.
Faster drop, slower transition, faster level 16 start, net improvement is about 107 frames. (1.77699 seconds!)
I'm curious to see if this translates into more lag savings through the rest of level 16.
Level 16 --
You'll need to fix the boss fight. You've got +5 frames from first frame of boss room until first frame of movement after unpause. This is because you didn't remove the select menu early.
You can hit select again during boss intro music to make the select menu window go away early, but you'll need to have some other button continuously pressed during the boss intro music, to keep the game frozen after the select menu goes away. I always hold the left arrow on the d-pad. Then, just before first possible frame for input, I release d-pad to officially "unpause", even though the select menu has already been gone. Then immediately repress d-pad left so the prince will not stop running. I also press X & B at the same time for immediate kill and immediate subsequent running jump.
----------------
overall, 53 frames improved on level 4, and 107 improved between 5 & 16. Also 8 frames improved from little things I noticed, this brings the tas projection down by 168 frames = 2.795 seconds!
30,782 = 8:32.1898088. wow!!
Of course, I should be able to do most of this by hand, so now my RTA goal may be going towards 8:35.9! -- this may be an unrealistic dream. I think a low 8:36 is definitely something I can shoot for though. :)
=================
i had another idea for level 16. I'll have to mess with it tomorrow, as it's way past bedtime now! I was thinking maybe after this better immediate jump, I could try a crouch or two, to mess with the spike spacing, and then maybe start a jump at the edge of the room. Depending on the spacing, may be able to save 5-6 animations during boss music, plus better spacing to opposite wall could save a few more animations by avoiding wall collision. It's just in my mind right now. I can't tell whether it's a good idea or if it's possible until I sit down and play it tomorrow.
I'll fix those mistakes once finishing this game.
About level 4: The first room I tested by accident. This skip is very easy to do in real time, because after that standing jump, only starts running animation and don't hold right button until before he finishes stop running animation.
I have exactly no idea how that skip worked, although I noticed the gate has opened a bit at the time. Seems it also requires perfect positioning.
Initially I managed to improve that previous strategy a bit, but the new skip was actually faster, since I started running earlier than before.
About level 5b: Yes, I added a jump press in order to only crouch twice.
Yeah I noticed that the new skip also affected those lag frames on level 16 checkpoint. That was very unexpected.
My homepage
--Currently not much motived for TASing as before...--
But I'm still working.
I tested my theory on level 16. The double crouch to the spikes does set up a favorable position for jumping deep into the boss room, so you can save 7 animations with this trick. Unfortunately, the double crouch and missing out on an extra jump costs a total of 12 animations, so it's better to just do the one jump over the spikes, and two jumps in the boss room. So I think once you fix the select menu trick, that's the best we can hope for. I'm out of ideas there! :)
----
The level 4 trick works because of the slow-down animation of this sprite corruption. When the "dead prince" animation occurs during the slow-down sequence, his collision detection box is very low, below the gate.
----
I confirmed the lag save for level 16. As mentioned above, the new right-facing drop in level 5b saves about 81 frames, but loses 22 frames on the transition (net 59 savings for 5b); for level 16 however, the lag savings is big in the first room, and also in the boss room. a total of 83 lag frames is saved.
So the new warp-16 drop saves a total of 142 frames = 2.3627754 seconds.
this further reduces the tas projection to 30,747 = 8:31.60743459..
(projection will be 30,743; i corrected 16 with 2 frames lower during level, and 2 frames lower during transition. see below.)
new tas projection --
1a -- _710.
1at - _308.
1b -- 1936.
1bt - _344.
1c -- 2444.
1ct - _136.
1s -- 5878.
4d -- 3276. (thru first frame climbing steps)
4dt - _478.
4ds - 3754.
5a -- _772. (thru select at 4th frame final sprite)
5at - 1437.
5as - 2209.
5b -- _690. (right-facing drop)
5bt - _164.
5bs - _854.
16 -- _766. (improved lag)
16t - _342.
17 -- 1828.
17t - _346.
18 -- 7312.
18t - _346.
19 -- 5008.
19t - _414.
20 -- 1686 (thru first frame select menu on-screen, at finish line)
tot- 30,743
30743 tas = 8:31.5408775365..
Note, all of these can be +/- 1 frame. The game engine timing floats in real time, so there can be arbitrary lag frames added or saved in any room for absolutely no reason. Once the TAS is programmed, these arbitrary lag frames will be set in stone, as the game is very consistent in replaying TAS performances. Sometimes, there's nothing you can do about a lag frame, and then it'll get saved 2 rooms later for no reason. So these numbers for each segment may be different.
However, also note that real time can be bumped either way by 2 frames, depending on Select Menu timing. So always mess around with select menu exit time at the end of each level, to see whether the game will give you a faster exit. (For levels 16-20; not for the glitches.)
I did a simple calculation for possible speedrun time for me, if I try another run. The World Record video was 31,242 frames. If we include the 180 frame improvements for 5b thru 16, and 53 frame improvements for level 4, and avoid the one mistake I made, 20 frames lost, that would bring a comparable run down to 30,989 = 8:35.634136355... and 22 frames clear of 8:36.
It seems I should work on this next, and see if I can implement all of the new tricks, and achieve an 8:35.x.
While I'm still improving this game, just noticed something about Gate Thief #1: It's possible to start level 1 safely without needing to die on level 2!
It's very easy: instead of a running jump on that very first room before glitching to Gate Thief #1, just do two standing jumps!
EDIT: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/70672456652449577
Now we can warp to level 16 with gate thief #1!!!
My homepage
--Currently not much motived for TASing as before...--
But I'm still working.
hmm, combining my best GT#1 on level 4 with the other segments of your new test, we are arriving at level 16 in 3:11, a full 20 seconds faster than the FGT Route we've been working with. I can imagine another few seconds can be saved with optimized movements on levels 1 & 5. So, wow. Looks like you just obsoleted the FGT route. haha.
So I just did a test recording. I did the better GT#1 setup, so it is not necessary to access Option menu to reset scrambled buttons. I suppose for the TAS it'll remain to be seen whether this different setup costs too much time, since TAS will only need about 12-14 extra frames to reset buttons.
The U-turn on level 5 appears to be the thing that fixes the clock bug on level 16. Even if you accidentally initiate the U-turn a frame too late, and collide with the gate, you can still turn, grab the ledge facing right, and climb up to reset your position before climbing down to the glitch. I did this in my recording, and was only 15 frames slower than your test for the whole level.
I have also done the U-turn correctly, and stepped to the edge. This also fixed the clock bug, as was expected.
Because the Konami Logo reset is avoided, level 16 is reached at least 20 seconds faster than FGT route. However, massive lag in level 16 costs about 11.4 seconds. Lag continues to be a bad issue for the first few rooms of level 17, but in my experience, this will not cost more than a couple more seconds. So this GT#1 route should easily be close to 10 seconds faster than FGT route once level 1 is cleaned up.
Also, my test recording tonight for the full game was 8:42.4, including tons and tons of horrendous mistakes. LOL.
I need to get another recording with a good level 17, to track the remaining lag. Then I should be able to put together a good Projection.
But first, BED TIME!!!
I made a demo of Gate Thief #3 today. Being similar to GT#1, he is also able to access Warp-16 with this alternate turn & climb down.
The benefit of Gate Thief #3 had always been the very short setup. Step 1, exit at Guard. Step 2, do a trick at the first hole. This trick causes a Logo Reset, but even with the extra 24 seconds, it's still very fast.
The reason I never used it is because even though the setup gives GT#3 such a huge head stead, GT#1 would eventually catch up and surpass #3 over the course of a Warp-8 run, for example.
It occurred to me this morning that given the shorter length of the Warp-16 route, GT#1 might not have enough time to catch up to GT#3. The major problem still remains that I do not know if it is possible to manipulate the GT#3 setup in order to access Level 1 quickly, like this new discovery you made for GT#1.
If GT#3 can be made to access Level 1 quickly, it may be pretty close.
My preliminary demo is in two parts -- first the setup for GT#3, and going to level 1 immediately (and dying on the first gate). The second segment is GT#3 successfully entering Level 1, and playing through to Warp-4 and Warp-16, and completing Level 17. Between these, I used a Debug Jump to Level 7, for a quick trick.
I am again running into the issue of the Clock Bug on Level 16, for GT#3. I had to finish Level 16 with extra lag, and then do a restart at Level 17, which cost 6 seconds to start Level 17 again.
After all this, GT#3 reaches Level 18 about 10 seconds faster than FGT. But this was the time we are initially projecting for GT#1. So unless the Clock Bug can be fixed to reduce lag, and unless there can be a very fast way of changing the setup to allow immediate access to Level 1, I'm afraid GT#3 simply does not have enough time to stay ahead of GT#1.
GT#1 is MILES better than GT#3 on levels 18 and 19.
I'll post the GT#3 segments here, in case you're interested in playing around with it.
If I do the optimal movements during the first segment (guard exit), the glitch doesn't work. It'll look like it's going to work, but give me the bad Static Sword sprite every time. Also, Select & Exit must be done in the Guard Room, not in the previous room. If not, a different glitch happens.
In the second segment, it seems like it may be ok to do the glitch exit on either the 2nd or 3rd fall. I've been doing it on the 3rd fall, because it seems to work more frequently that way. But it still doesn't happen very often. Most times, I get the bad Static Sword sprite, and have to try again.
The Level Zero exit needs to be done just before the Prince sprite turns into a Guard Sprite. I don't know if the timing is frame perfect, or random. It seems like I do the exact same thing over and over again, but still never know whether it worked or not until after the Logo Reset. Note -- in this demo, I paused maybe 2 frames before the blue Guard Sprite came on-screen.
An alternate method will need to be found in order to gain immediate access to Level 1 with the GT#3 sprite. Otherwise, it will not be fast enough.
GT#3 setup + Warp-16 demo --
Link to video
woohoo! New world record tonight, using new GT1 Warp-16 route. Unfortunately, I had 1 stupid mistake, that cost 2.26 seconds (took falling damage on level 18), so I'm not going to submit it. But this is a good baseline for showing that the FGT TAS route is now officially obsoleted.
I got an 8:28.607, almost a full 3 seconds faster than the FGT TAS route. Once I tidy up the run, I should be looking at an easy sub-8:25. TAS will probably be somewhere around 8:21. Unless we find a couple more tricks, I don't think a sub-8:20 will be possible. But how many times have I said that in the past 3 weeks? haha.
I'll post up this new run later tonight, along with stats, and preliminary TAS projection.
So, I've solved the question of the best Setup.
For Humans, it is obviously faster to do the "Better" GT1 setup, to avoid button scrambling. A human will require 1.5 seconds to reset buttons. However, since the TAS only requires 14-16 frames to reset buttons, it is faster for the TAS to allow button scrambling, with the alternate setup. The TAS saves 4 frames with a standing-jump to the 1a guard exit, and saves another 16 frames with a crouch to the panel in 1b. Although I noticed that this segment was done even 23 frames faster using the FGT route spacing (dead stop off ledge, turn & jump, single crouch & turn) -- I'm not sure whether Challenger intentionally avoided that method, or simply forgot.
At any rate, the TAS will save either 4 or 27 frames by allowing the button scrambling. So that will be a notable difference between the TAS route and the Human route.
----
Gate Thief #1 -- Warp 16 Route -- 8:28.5957..
Link to video
30,566 console frames = 508.5957278984 seconds.
I made an interesting discovery this morning. I'll need to do it a few more times to confirm, but it appears that the "correct" u-turn and climb down on level 5 does not fix the Clock Bug if you do the "Better" Human GT1 setup (no button scramble). Perhaps either way is ok with the button scramble setup, but with the Human setup, only the late U-turn with Gate Collision fixes the Clock Bug. I just did the exact same setup from the above video, twice in a row, with the good u-turn, step, and climb down, and both times, the Clock Bug was present in Level 16.
Therefore, it would appear that I cannot count on the 15-16 frames of savings I expected. So this will make a sub-8:25 that much more difficult. I'll have to be very fast on the select menu exits, and very clean on the levels, no mistakes.
Challenge Accepted!
Gadzooks! I got a worthy World Record tonight, which I will publish and submit. No major mistakes, but I lost about a second from small (single animation) mistakes here and there. The total was 30,423 console frames, which is 8:26.216313219 in real time. I will need to save 14 frames to get an 8:25.983, and break the 8:26 barrier.
One positive note is that I broke my Individual Level Record on level 20 here, getting a 1684, 1 frame better than my published level 20 video. The difference is the new trick during the Jaffar fight, where I cause the Prince to jump up, getting a little bit closer to the finish line. It should have been 2 frames better, but I guess there was an extra lag frame somewhere. Never can predict those.
I don't think I will be trying for an 8:24. It would probably require a perfect level 17, which is not going to happen with all that lag. The logs are too risky, and the lag keeps coming and going completely inconsistently in those first few rooms, making it extremely difficult to maintain perfect timing and spacing. And besides that, I'd basically have to be PERFECT on every segment throughout the speedrun to reach 8:24. That won't happen either. So I'll be happy with an 8:25.x, if I can manage it.
Will post the 8:26.2 tomorrow.
Alright, here's the video. 8:26.216313219. Good demo for the route.
Gate Thief #1 -- Warp-16 Route -- 8:26.216313.
Link to video
30,423 console frames = 506.216313219 seconds.
I thought of a fun alternate speedrun route.
If you do guard exit, then single-up exit + quick level zero exit, you get the warp-6 sprite set + kill button in just 45 seconds, and reach level 4 after just 80 seconds total. This is an improvement of about 18 seconds over the current "no gate skip" warp-16 route. The difference is, this particular setup will cause Blind Level 4. And since there are no Princess Bedroom scenes until Level 20, and no break in action, this means Levels 5, 16, 17, 18, and 19 will also be in Blind Mode!
Theoretically, this means the No Gate Skip route could be done in under 11 minutes "easily." But here comes my interesting idea --
How about a Game Genie speedrun, where I use No Gates code (this will start the game with Gate Thief ability, even though the Prince sprite is normal).
This would essentially follow the GT1 Warp-16 Route, demonstrated in my new video, above. The only difference would be that the setup is faster, and the vast majority of the run is "Dark," to be a fun challenge. I think I may do this next, and see how far I can get.
One major difference to keep in mind, is that the Game Genie code allows for ultra-fast Level 4 route, to jump through the middle gate without visiting the first guard. However, some time would be lost at the big drop, since the gate will not make contact, and you will be stuck on the ground for 2.3 seconds, due to stun. (In my No Gates demo video, I also used Invincibility Mode, but that would not be available in a speedrun.)
I suspect this theoretical route would be about 36 seconds faster than the above GT1 route to reach level 4, and maybe 11 seconds faster on level 4, putting a perfect performance around 7:45.000. Having a shorter, less tedious setup, but more nail-biting "Blind" action could make for a good video.
I can imagine the logs on Level 17, and all the jumps on Level 18 will prove quite difficult. While I have memorized Levels 4, 5, 16, & 19, I don't know if I'll be able to get very far into Level 18 without some serious new practice.
EDIT --
I've hit a snag here. Under normal circumstances, whenever you are hanging on a ledge below a closed gate, and attempt to climb up and get denied by the closed gate, one of two things can happen, depending upon how you fell and grabbed the ledge: either you will fall closer to the wall, or farther away from the wall.
We were always careful to do the correct approach for the Warp-16 hole, so that after climbing up into the closed gate, and being forced back down, we always got the variation where the Prince fell farther away from the wall, and this allowed the good Warp-16.
However, the No Gates Code causes the Prince to ALWAYS fall close to the wall after being stuffed by the closed gate. (The No Gates Code does not prevent ALL gate interactions -- you still cannot climb up into a closed gate.) So this eliminates the "good" warp-16 I was hoping for.
So far, the only way I can find to warp is to do the Fast Drop, as we have been doing on level 5a for the FGT route (which does a Logo Reset). However, for this 6/4 sprite set, a fast drop warps to the Beginning of Level 16, not the checkpoint.
I absolutely cannot find a different way to do it. Everything else is a No Warp, or Logo Reset for a strange shaking version of FGT.
So, this theoretical "Blind" run I imagined must warp to the beginning of Level 16. Compared to the GT1 route, this loses about 40.5 seconds (taking into consideration the worse lag for GT1 on levels 16 and 17), bringing my projection back up to 8:25.5, and therefore, probably not faster than the GT1 route.
But then I remembered one more thing! No Gates means no need to fall down in the 2nd room of Level 5. This saves another full 7 seconds, and puts this fun run back on track to be faster than the official route by at least 2-3 seconds!
Add to this the further benefit of doing the full level 16 in the Dark as a bonus challenge, and I think I've got myself an excellent project to work on next, shooting for a sub 8:20.
So to sum it all up --
Using the Game Genie's "No Gates" Code, and doing a very simple setup gets the Prince on a quick start to Level 4. After the Level 4 Warp, the No Gates Code allows for big time savings at the Mid Gate on Level 4, as well as big savings in the 2nd room of Level 5. Further, without any big lag, massive time is saved after the Level 16 Checkpoint, as well as the beginning of Level 17. But counting against all this time saved (simplified setup, Level 4 shortcut, Level 5 improved, Levels 16 & 17 lag reduction), we have to add big time for playing the first half of Level 16. Joyously, the savings slightly outweighs the cost, and this fun theoretical "In The Dark" route should be a few seconds faster than the official GT1 route.
