Topic by Noxxa

Posted: 4/26/2021 12:39 AM

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nymx

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Ok...I'm over complicating this. I should have just played the level out. It is painfully slow to watch; however, the level doesn't increase after its completion...it just remains at 15 with the same slow behavior. So...this means a decision between ending the TAS at the completion of 14 or 15? I would think 14, since 15 shows a massive degradation in difficulty and speed, which doesn't represent the aspect of TASing.

I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- ~~Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?~~ Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX

Posted: 4/26/2021 2:53 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1255)

Joined: 4/17/2010
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Do you have a movie?

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 4/26/2021 3:29 PM

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nymx

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feos wrote:

Do you have a movie?

I can re-encode Level 15, if that is enough.

I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- ~~Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?~~ Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX

Posted: 4/26/2021 3:32 PM

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feos

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Joined: 4/17/2010
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The movie (replay) file, not the video.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 4/27/2021 7:36 PM

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feos

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$C68B decreases from 0x0F to 0 at level 15, and it doesn't go below 0, so enemies move at the same slow speed since then. So just beat the hardest level.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 4/27/2021 7:38 PM

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nymx

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feos wrote:

So just beat the hardest level.

Ok, Just to be clear...you are calling Level 15 (The slow level) the hardest level?

I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- ~~Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?~~ Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX

Posted: 4/27/2021 7:43 PM

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feos

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Is it the hardest to play through?

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 4/27/2021 7:45 PM

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nymx

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feos wrote:

Is it the hardest to play through?

:) You have a way with words. I suppose it could be, if you are a sloth. LOL

I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- ~~Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?~~ Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX

Posted: 5/3/2021 2:31 PM

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InputEvelution

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Say I wanted to make a "max skill level" TAS in a game where the player's skill level is displayed as an integer, but it's stored as a float in the game's data, meaning it can still technically be increased beyond what appears to be its "max" (with this approach adding considerably to the run's final time). In such a case, should the skill level be only increased up to the highest integer, or its highest total value?

Posted: 5/3/2021 3:23 PM

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feos

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InputEvelution wrote:

Say I wanted to make a "max skill level" TAS in a game where the player's skill level is displayed as an integer, but it's stored as a float in the game's data, meaning it can still technically be increased beyond what appears to be its "max" (with this approach adding considerably to the run's final time). In such a case, should the skill level be only increased up to the highest integer, or its highest total value?

Sounds like a perfect edge case. Please describe how it works with this game, maybe we'll come up with something.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 5/3/2021 11:22 PM

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InputEvelution

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So this game works on a basis of the player playing matches against CPU opponents, who have their own assigned skill levels, and are selected from an array of potential opponents depending on the player's skill level. Depending on how the player's skill level compares to that of their opponent/s, and how overwhelmingly they're considered to have won or lost, the player's skill level is either increased or decreased. Eventually the game runs out of more difficult CPU opponents to supply the player with, which in turn means that even if the player were to win to the most overwhelming extent every time, the increases in skill level will grow increasingly smaller and begin to approach an asymptote, marking a limit to how far their skill level can be increased. As already noted, the game displays this skill level and its increases/decreases as integers, but behind the scenes it instead operates as a float. This subsequently means that beyond what appears to be the maximum achievable skill level, the skill level can be increased further towards the asymptote in the tiniest of increments until eventually the increases are too small to move it from one floating point value to the next highest floating point value. This naturally involves yet more playing against the exact same CPU opponents in order to reach this point, with no noticeable differences in the actual gameplay at this point, and nothing to indicate to the average viewer that anything's actually happening anymore, even if the saved skill level is still increasing in the tiniest of fractions.

Posted: 5/4/2021 3:40 PM

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feos

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That sounds like a max score goal to me. Is there something that one could more objectively and clearly maximize without having to beat the same opponents (too much)? What percentage of "visible max skill" would it be in terms of time?

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 5/13/2021 2:20 AM

Post subject: Another Game Ending Problem

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nymx

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I've tried figuring this one out, based on other submissions...so I'm a bit confused. I've studied the following two submissions, and crossed them with my own understanding (a few of my own accepted submissions): NES Burger Time http://tasvideos.org/4094M.html I bring this one up, due to it have 256 stages...something similir to what I'm about to ask. NES Duck Hunt (Game B) http://tasvideos.org/4003M.html With Duck Hunt, DrD2k9 identifies at round 27 that the hit box gets as small as it will and the speed has been capped. My newest, un-submitted, TAS is a C64 version of "Omega Race". My observations show that the game repeats after 5 rounds...which the games states "Droid Force 1 Eliminated". Afterwards....it appears to continue over again at the same level of difficulty. The address of 0x27 shows an incrementing value of the round being played. I've "Poked" the address with various numbers, all the way to 255, and I'm seeing the same count of ships and speed. In addition, the pattern of mobility seems to be similar...except that RNG does affect things because of the frame that inputs occur on. Because of that, it is not a situation where inputs can be copied to complete future rounds...based off the last round of difficulty increase. Any ideas on confirming an ending for this?

I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- ~~Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?~~ Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX

Posted: 5/13/2021 5:41 AM

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Samsara

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We recently amended the rules to allow single loops of infinite games, with only a preference for maximizing the difficulty. Given your explanation, though, it looks like 5 rounds should be the ending point either way, so I'd say you're good to go here.

TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky

warmCabin wrote:

You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.

Posted: 5/13/2021 11:52 AM

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nymx

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Samsara wrote:

We recently amended the rules to allow single loops of infinite games, with only a preference for maximizing the difficulty. Given your explanation, though, it looks like 5 rounds should be the ending point either way, so I'd say you're good to go here.

Thanks.

I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- ~~Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?~~ Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX

Posted: 6/5/2021 10:16 AM

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AleMastroianni

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Joined: 4/2/2019
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Writing here to ask a clarification towards the developing of CTR 101% TAS (PSX). Recently a glitch that allows to manipulate memory was found, providing a way to obtain collectables in non-conventional ways. It is NOT a duplication glitch, since the collectable wont be available on the corresponding level it belongs to anymore. It's performed by quitting to main menu when you're not supposed to, locking in memory a game-state you're not supposed to keep. This allows for a mix of 2 types of challanges to be available in one race, and some random collectables somehow here manipulate different sections of ram, depending on where/how they are collected. The glitch per se if far more interesting than the 101% of this category, as it would be basically any% x3 times without this. My question here is: is the memory manipulation in these case allowed? The 101% run on speedrun.com DOES allow this without putting it in misc or any other sub/category. It very much resembles the memory manipulation for crystals in the original trilogy of the crash bandicoot games, which have a few tases with this kind of manipulation already. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuOkJPpqc3M

Posted: 6/6/2021 7:25 AM

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feos

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If it's a branch that's meant as full completion, we have a rule for that. Full completion criteria must be reached through in-game actions only. RTA rules probably allow it because degree of memory manipulation they can pull off is much much lower than in a TAS.

It very much resembles the memory manipulation for crystals in the original trilogy of the crash bandicoot games, which have a few tases with this kind of manipulation already.

Can you provide more details on this instead?

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 6/6/2021 8:46 AM

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AleMastroianni

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Oh, i see. The tases i mentioned are the ones for any% like pirohiko one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbi_m8HJmRA&t=189s So this wouldnt be applied to the 101% category, even if its different from MAX%, from what i understand. Thats a bummer. Thanks for the clarification then

Posted: 6/6/2021 8:57 PM

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ThunderAxe31

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feos, couldn't such branch be allowed for Moons, since it's unique and entertaining?

my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"

Posted: 6/6/2021 9:18 PM

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feos

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If we keep calling memory-corrupted full completion legitimate full completion, the full completion definition becomes moot with every newly discovered more powerful memory corruption technique, that would potentially gradually reduce the category to just hacking the full completion metric directly. So clarity of the goal blurs. It may or may not remain entertaining. But I don't know accepted examples of hacking the main metric of a category to appear true in terms of formal statistics, but not intended in-game mechanics. Even for entertaining non-full-completion.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 6/6/2021 9:53 PM

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ThunderAxe31

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Yeah, I don't know of any precedent either. I think this is a pretty new scenario, as the memory corruption techniques for this specific game result in much different gameplay between fastest-conpletion and full-completion.

my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"

Posted: 6/15/2021 11:10 AM

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jlun2

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In Dragon Warrior Monsters 2, there's a save bug that allows you to get a glitched NPC. Depositing the NPC into the farm potentially changes your 1st NPC's ID. While that's not allowed for 100%, is glitching NPCs, then using them to obtain it normally fine? Eg. Glitch a NPC to get version exclusive (just like Pokemon, there's 2 versions of this game), then use it to breed back said exclusive as normal to obtain it "legit" through intended in game means.

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 6/15/2021 4:41 PM

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arkiandruski

Reviewer, Active player (287)

Joined: 12/14/2006
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By my understanding, the only thing required for 100% is that all items are gained through in game means. If you use ACE to set up those legitimate means, it still counts.

My favorite movies

Posted: 6/15/2021 4:47 PM
(Edited: 6/15/2021 4:55 PM)

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CasualPokePlayer

Emulator Coder, Judge, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 2/26/2020
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Location: California

arkiandruski wrote:

By my understanding, the only thing required for 100% is that all items are gained through in game means. If you use ACE to set up those legitimate means, it still counts.

That does not count at all. ACE (along with its arbitrariness equals for ROM execution and memory corruption) are completely disallowed for full completion by the movie rules, and doing what you propose would also effectively be inefficient use of ACE (banned elsewhere!). Also, I don't know where ACE actually came into the equation here. Nowhere in here did jlun mention ACE.

Posted: 6/15/2021 4:51 PM

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feos

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If it will be a Vault movie, ACE is disallowed for full completion. The setup jlun2 described doesn't sound like ACE to me, but I admit I don't fully understand the description XD

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

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